Why was there a reformation?

[Taken]

Hi Taken,

Its not a big secret that those "clerics" are worthy of double honor for they are in charge of our souls (1 Timothy 5:17). It is no secret they Keep watch over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made them overseers so that they can shepherd the church of God. Sadly some savage wolves have come amongst us, not sparing the flock and distorting the truth in order to entice the disciples to follow them (Acts 28-30). That happened on a grand scale with the Reformation. What you call mimiking Christians call adhering to the teachings of The Church that is called the pillar and foundation of truth and of whom we are to go to so that we can settle our differences. The same Church who was given authority to declare a wayward Christian a pagan or tax collector. Us Christians know that we are to Obey your leaders (what you call clerics) and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account (Hebrews 13:17). But you don't know this and it is a secret to you because you don't know Scripture.

Notice how I used Scripture to verify what I preach. What did you use? Your opinion???? (it is no secret, the answer is yes, your entire post is your opinion)

I notice you quoted 1 Timothy 5:17...
I noticed the CAVEAT...
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

“IF” some Catholics “RULERS” are NOT “RULING” well, “NOT my obligation to Correct them”.
Apparently you are without NOTICE, not ALL Catholics FOLLOW the “Catholic Official Teaching”...What they say and do “AS a Catholic”, reflects on your own “Catholic Church”, and the Competence of the “RULERS”, whether or not you like it.

But you don't know this and it is a secret to you because you don't know Scripture.

Congratulations, expected and still true to form to make a false allegation when you can not face the facts. Inasmuch as you represent your Catholic Church, so do other Catholics, and inasmuch as you believe Catholic clerics have carte Blanche responsibility for watching over YOUR SOUL ...(WHICH YOU ADDED TO THE SCRIPTURE)...an astounding number of Catholic clerics DO NOT fulfill their charge in an “WELL or UPSTANDING” manner.

Typical...back patting yourself for “Referencing” a Scripture...and then in your words “CHANGING” what the Scripture actually says.

 

[Marymog]

I notice you quoted 1 Timothy 5:17...
I noticed the CAVEAT...
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

“IF” some Catholics “RULERS” are NOT “RULING” well, “NOT my obligation to Correct them”.
Apparently you are without NOTICE, not ALL Catholics FOLLOW the “Catholic Official Teaching”...What they say and do “AS a Catholic”, reflects on your own “Catholic Church”, and the Competence of the “RULERS”, whether or not you like it.

Ok...Ummmmm I never suggested that it is your "obligation to correct them". It is the responsibility of The Church hierarchy to correct them. Nor have I ever said that all catholics follow official teaching sooooo whats your point?

Soooo who are your rulers that you give double honor to?

 

[Marymog]

Congratulations, expected and still true to form to make a false allegation when you can not face the facts. Inasmuch as you represent your Catholic Church, so do other Catholics, and inasmuch as you believe Catholic clerics have carte Blanche responsibility for watching over YOUR SOUL ...(WHICH YOU ADDED TO THE SCRIPTURE)...an astounding number of Catholic clerics DO NOT fulfill their charge in an “WELL or UPSTANDING” manner.

Typical...back patting yourself for “Referencing” a Scripture...and then in your words “CHANGING” what the Scripture actually says.

You crack me up Taken......always talking but never saying anything NOR do you quote Scripture to back up what you say NOR do you use Scripture to debunk anything I say. You are an interesting person.....

Yes, I do beleive what Scripture says. Clerics are repsonsible for watching over our souls. Do you not believe what Scripture says? What cleric do you know that is worthy of double honor?

 

[Taken]

You crack me up Taken......always talking but never saying anything NOR do you quote Scripture to back up what you say NOR do you use Scripture to debunk anything I say. You are an interesting person.....

Yes, I do beleive what Scripture says. Clerics are repsonsible for watching over our souls. Do you not believe what Scripture says? What cleric do you know that is worthy of double honor?

TYPICAL...false accusation...the very post of mine you are responding to ...you completely Edited out the Scripture I quoted, that expressly revealed Scriptural Truth, that your own words revealed you added to the Scripture!

Christ Jesus Himself IS the One whom I give Supreme Honor for His Authority Over my Soul.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks GG,

Purgatory is a tough one for me also. The teaching of it makes sense though. We know thru Scripture that Nothing impure shall enter heaven. I know I won't be pure (sinless) when I die so it makes sense that there could/would be a purification process. The thing is we can't pick and choose what teachings of The Church we accept. How can we, as individuals, say The Church got this teaching right but got that one wrong? Wouldn't that make each individual Christian the pillar and foundation of truth? Since it is impossible for each individual Christian to be THE pillar and foundation of truth spoken of in Scripture then that means only The Church can be right about the truth.....not me. So what happens if you reject The Church's teaching on purgatory? I don't think it's a dogma that if rejected by Catholics you commit heresy. Will you still go to heaven? I think thru the grace of God you will. Maybe it will be purged from you in purgatory.....

LOL
You funny.
The CC uses 1 Corinthians 3:15 as support for purgatory.
One of the reasons for the reformation, I believe, is verses like this that are clearly not meant to represent a condition after death that neither Jesus nor the Apostles spoke of. I can't think of any ECF that spoke to this and so I'd have to discount it.

In regards to John 3:5 it needs to be taken into context. Starting in John 1 and all the way thru John 4 (which puts John 3 right in the middle of that context) water=baptism and baptism=water. Some believe that Jesus all of a sudden was equating water to Amniotic Fluid. If that were true that would make Jesus a very confusing teacher and I don't think He is. Also, I Peter 3:20-21 equates water with baptism and being saved. There are other vs's but I know you already know them. I think the most important point is the context of John....it's all wet with references to water = baptism and baptism = water.

Respectfully, Mary

I told the Monk I study with (catholic of course) that John 3:5 sounds like the water of birth and he told me what you said, of course - which I knew he would. He didn't really expound on this too much and there's about 15 of us and I really don't like to "argue".

The Baptist was baptizing for the forgiveness of sins. (repentance).
But he said that the One that came after him would baptize in the Holy Spirit. John 1:33
And with fire and the Holy Spirit. Matthew 3:11

So it would seem that Jesus would baptize in a different way...with the Holy Spirit...
So a person would have to be born 2 times:
Once physically and
Once spiritually.

What else could BORN AGAIN mean? John 3:3
What does it have to do with baptism?
Why does Nicodemus ask how one could return to the womb?

You see. It leaves me with too many questions.

Then again, Jesus did tell the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
So---back to square one?

I envy my friends that do not think about these matters.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GG,

Perhaps this will help: we earnestly ask and exhort you in the Lord Jesus that, as you received from us how you should conduct yourselves to please God and as you are conducting your selves you do so even more. For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

Clearly the NT Christians were expected to accept every single teaching. Shouldn't we?

Yes...but some teachings developed and some were changed.
Confession is a prime example.
It developed over time to what we have today.
Some priests I know that do not believe purgatory is found in the bible DO believe in confession of sins. I find this very interesting.

Also, your verse is speaking to how we conduct ourselves.
I'm thinking of the beatitudes --- of course we're to follow Jesus' teachings and no denomination I can think of would argue against this.

 

[Marymog]

LOL
You funny.
The CC uses 1 Corinthians 3:15 as support for purgatory.
One of the reasons for the reformation, I believe, is verses like this that are clearly not meant to represent a condition after death that neither Jesus nor the Apostles spoke of. I can't think of any ECF that spoke to this and so I'd have to discount it.

Thanks GG,

There are other vs's other than 1 Corinthians: Rev. 21:27, II Maccabees 12:39-46, Matthew 5:24-25 that support the teaching. But I don't want to belabor this point.

I agree with you on the ECF's not writing about it. It wasn't until late in the 2nd century we find Origen talking about it. But then again there were a lot of things they didn't write about.

As far as the Reformation goes and those men rejecting the teachings on Purgatory... I find it fascinating that Protestants reject the most ancient teachings of Christianity and tell us Catholics that we are wrong for not accepting their new teachings. They then come up with a couple different replacements for Purgatory and now that is gospel? They reject ancient teachings and the passages that back those teachings....but it's not my problem so I digress.

Funny Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks GG,

There are other vs's other than 1 Corinthians: Rev. 21:27, II Maccabees 12:39-46, Matthew 5:24-25 that support the teaching. But I don't want to belabor this point.

I agree with you on the ECF's not writing about it. It wasn't until late in the 2nd century we find Origen talking about it. But then again there were a lot of things they didn't write about.

As far as the Reformation goes and those men rejecting the teachings on Purgatory... I find it fascinating that Protestants reject the most ancient teachings of Christianity and tell us Catholics that we are wrong for not accepting their new teachings. They then come up with a couple different replacements for Purgatory and now that is gospel? They reject ancient teachings and the passages that back those teachings....but it's not my problem so I digress.

Funny Mary

Yes Funny Mary,,,
I agree totally with your statements above.

Here are a couple of my pet-peeves:
OSAS comes out of the closet 1,500 after Jesus died and the Apostles began teaching.
The reformed faith comes out of the closet at the same time (go figure) and the early fathers did not believe in predestination the way
Augustine did OR the way calvinists do today.

Also, I'd say that Origen is an early church father...
if you have any links or statements on purgatory, please try to post them.
I know they're not easy to find.

(and I know about the other verses you posted)...

 

[amigo de christo]

A sign of obedience like Joseph and his brothers


Genesis 42:6
And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

Ye have heard how the gentiles Rule over , Lord over etc , but it shall not be so among you .
You just make every excuse for your religion and yet your religion denies the very words of JESUS and HIS pattern
and the pattern the true apostles would later teach .
Not a one of them popes truly knew the LORD . having men to kneel before you . Peter and paul , DID NOT do this at all .
Having rings kissed and acting like they the all holy and all knowing ones . FLEE that place my friend .

 

[TEXBOW]

Finally, we agree on something. You, a man, follow what YOU believe is "his guidance and teachings" from Him. You rely on you to convince yourself what the truth is and you believe that He is guiding you. Kind of like all the other false prophets and men who have led His sheep astray.

You have it wrong. "You rely on you to convince yourself what the truth is" This statement is obvious you do not understand the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We rely on the Holy Spirit for the truth. Not us, not ourselves. No need to rely on ourselves when the Holy Spirit speaks to you. In fact if you're relying on yourself (your flesh) you have promoted the flesh over the spirit. It's very simple, the Holy Spirit speaks to the believer, the Holy Spirit convicts the believer, guides us, teaches us, encourages us and many other things.

 

[Cassandra]

Already acting in the person of Christ even acting as mediator

Peter is not our mediator. Jesus is our mediator. This is blasphemy.

 

[theefaith]

Ye have heard how the gentiles Rule over , Lord over etc , but it shall not be so among you .
You just make every excuse for your religion and yet your religion denies the very words of JESUS and HIS pattern
and the pattern the true apostles would later teach .
Not a one of them popes truly knew the LORD . having men to kneel before you . Peter and paul , DID NOT do this at all .
Having rings kissed and acting like they the all holy and all knowing ones . FLEE that place my friend .

The church is not a democracy you don’t get to vote, it’s a kingdom, with a king and those who the king appointed to rule in his place

Christ the king!

The king of kings!

Christ is King of Glory!

Kingdom established by God!
Isa 2:2
Dan 2: 44
Micah 4:1

One, holy, catholic, (universal) and apostolic! And all nations and all people shall flow into it! All must submit and obey the king of glory!

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Christ is the king!

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 2:10-11 all people!

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, (old covenant Israel) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Jesus Christ is king!

We must submit and obey the king of kings!

And In the absence of the king we must submit and obey the kings ministers!

Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:18
Matt 18:18
Matt 28:18
Jn 20:21-23

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Biblical Example Joseph under pharaoh administers the kingdom and his brothers obeyed and submitted to him.

Christ is king and a king must rule the hearts and minds of his subjects!

All are subject to christ! Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power (authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1 cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

The proof of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ and His church!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Christ the king and His kingdom are one!

Eph 3:9

Dan 7:13-14

Num 24:19

Psalm 2

Psalm 64

Psalm 71

Isa. 9:6-7 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.



Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Dan 2:44

Dan 7:13-14

Zach 9:9

Lk 1:32-33.

Matt 25:31-40

Jn 18:37

Matt 28:18

Apoc. 1:5

Apoc 19:16

Heb 1:2

1 Cor. 15:25

1 Pet 1:18-19

1 Cor 6:20

1 Cor 6:15

Jn 14:15 15:10

Joan 5:22

Acts 4:12

1 Cor 7:23

Rom 6:13

 

[theefaith]

Peter is not our mediator. Jesus is our mediator. This is blasphemy.

no it’s not
Only Christ is mediator between God and men, mediator of justice, any one in the communion can pray, intercede
Peter was a intermediary between Christ the apostles and the Pharisees
That does not make him God and not blasphemy

 

[TEXBOW]

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 

[Cassandra]

no it’s not
Only Christ is mediator between God and men, mediator of justice, any one in the communion can pray, intercede
Peter was a intermediary between Christ the apostles and the Pharisees
That does not make him God and not blasphemy

The apostles could speak for themselves. they didn't need a mediator. Jesus mediation is wayyyyy different than what you say Peter's was.

I recall you posting this entire post on another thread. I called you on it then, too, and you said it was a typo.

 

[amigo de christo]

Peter is not our mediator. Jesus is our mediator. This is blasphemy.

Sound it out to the last and final breath . JESUS , IT IS HE WHO IS THE ONLY MEDIATOR between GOD and mankind .

 

[amigo de christo]

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Though the more abundantely i love you the LESS i be loved .
This often happens my friend . When lambs bring truth , they are often hated by those they dearly love .
Love corrects , and folks dont like correction .
BUT , Rebuke a lamb , rebuke a wise man and HE WILL love thee . Rebuke a scorner and he will HATE thee .
ITS ALL OUT WAR for the souls of men and we cannot allow one foot to go in the direction of That catholic church
or any other church that has led folks astray .

 

[amigo de christo]

COME YE OUT ONE and COME YE OUT ALL , FROM AMONGST the dangerous men who have led many astray throughout
all generations . DO IT SPEEDILY before its too late .

 

[amadeus]

The church is not a democracy you don’t get to vote, it’s a kingdom, with a king and those who the king appointed to rule in his place

Christ the king!

The king of kings!

Christ is King of Glory!

Kingdom established by God!
Isa 2:2
Dan 2: 44
Micah 4:1

One, holy, catholic, (universal) and apostolic! And all nations and all people shall flow into it! All must submit and obey the king of glory!

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Christ is the king!

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 2:10-11 all people!

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, (old covenant Israel) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Jesus Christ is king!

We must submit and obey the king of kings!

And In the absence of the king we must submit and obey the kings ministers!

Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:18
Matt 18:18
Matt 28:18
Jn 20:21-23

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Biblical Example Joseph under pharaoh administers the kingdom and his brothers obeyed and submitted to him.

Christ is king and a king must rule the hearts and minds of his subjects!

All are subject to christ! Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power (authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1 cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

The proof of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ and His church!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Christ the king and His kingdom are one!

Eph 3:9

Dan 7:13-14

Num 24:19

Psalm 2

Psalm 64

Psalm 71

Isa. 9:6-7 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.



Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Dan 2:44

Dan 7:13-14

Zach 9:9

Lk 1:32-33.

Matt 25:31-40

Jn 18:37

Matt 28:18

Apoc. 1:5

Apoc 19:16

Heb 1:2

1 Cor. 15:25

1 Pet 1:18-19

1 Cor 6:20

1 Cor 6:15

Jn 14:15 15:10

Joan 5:22

Acts 4:12

1 Cor 7:23

Rom 6:13

Why is it you continue to flood your posts with tons of scriptures or scriptural references that no one is going to read? Even if you were right on whatever point you were trying to make, who could know it from what you post?

Are you helping you, or the Catholic Church, or God, when no one on the forum understands your point but you?

 

[theefaith]

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

mare you claiming to be an apostle?