Why was there a reformation?

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Truth7t7

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You didn't answer the question. Par for the course.

huh....o_O
Yes you run from response on the fairy tale of transubstantiation

Yes the wine at 18% alcohol is still the same after the supposed magical prayer of the priest, just like Santa Claus is nothing more than folklore, in fairy tales of man

Sad part is, people really believe the lies as being truth, same applies to praying the dead out of purgatory, total bondage of the masses of people, in mind control through fear
 

GodsGrace

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Masses in America are roughly 1-1.5 hours in populated areas, is there a priest in america that does at least 3 masses in 4 hours , yes

It appears your dont believe in transubstantiation, because you agree that drinking wine that's 18% alcohol will get a priest tipsy/drunk, therefore acknowledging its wine and not actually the blood of Jesus?
I was being a little sarcastic.
I can drink 4 glasses of wine in 4 hours and not get tipsy.

As to transubstantiation, ,
I'm on the fence right now.
I'm just not sure.

Why do you NOT believe it?
But must go now...
 

Truth7t7

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Oh, but you do follow a man. You follow yourself. You tell yourself what the truth is and you follow it soooooo stop being so silly.

If your not Catholic or Orthodox your Protestant. You can't change that accepted fact kiddo.

Ok....you believe that The Church teaches false doctrines. That means YOU must know what is a true doctrine. You can only know something is false if you know what is true. Who taught you this "truth"?
You speak in ignorance, there were many Christian's that existed outside of roman catholicism, they were the persecuted church, that never accepted the pope, or the catholic church

I follow God the holy Spirit that dwells within me, and his guidance and teachings in the word of God, no man needed as you suggest

And yes Catholicism teaches many false doctrines, mary being mediator between man and christ, transubstantiation, purgatory, pope infallibility, being just a few mentions

Yes Roman Catholicism has been a historic evil, and it remains the same today

Bostons Cardinal Bernard F. Law, 400 counts of child abuse, under indictment by Massachusetts Grand Jury to face the charges, escapes to Vatican City protected by Pope John Paul from extradition (Evil)
 

quietthinker

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what! you don't understand this Mary?....even your moniker is testimony to it!
Jesus was real in the sense he didn't get around in brilliantly white clothes and wearing a halo. Even the infant depictions in the art produced by your forebears makes him look like he never pooped his diapers and with an intelligence which no infant displays!

He worked ie, he applied muscle and backbone to help in the family's economy. He didn't get around in processions bearing opulent ornate depictions of anything. At the end of a sweaty day he had to wash off the saw dust and grime which had developed during a days labour....and you guys wanna talk about being in his footsteps.....gimme a break! only the blind, the uninformed and the deluded would fall for that ruse.
 
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theefaith

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No, no. no

IMO, this quote above is blasphemous.

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus."1 Timothy 2:5

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”John 14:6

sorry Casandra my spell check did that
I made no intention that Peter is divine

I meant intermediary and all Christians in the communion of saints in union with Christ in the new covenant can pray and intercede for each other with Christ the one mediator!
 

theefaith

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Could you please explain your last sentence above?
(highlighted by me).

What do you mean by COMMON SALVATION?
What do you mean by NO PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR?

And there are personal covenants....

there is one new covenant, one savior, one salvation for all!
 

Truth7t7

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there is one new covenant, one savior, one salvation for all!
One salvation for all?

Does Mary "Currently" have any role in salvation, is she mediatrix between man and Jesus?
 

theefaith

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One salvation for all?

Does Mary "Currently" have any role in salvation, is she mediatrix between man and Jesus?

she is the mother of our savior and the mother of our salvation
All grace comes thru Mary
 

theefaith

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Blessing from God thru Mary!

All graces come to us they Mary, from God by the merits (blood) of Christ!
Jn 1:16
Of His fullness we have all received, grace for grace!

Salvation Lk 1:30
Consented to our salvation Lk 1:38
Mother of Christ Matt 1:16
Mother of the word Jn 1:1
Mother of our savior Matt 1:21
Mother of our salvation Lk 2:30
Our mother Jn 19:26-27

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit!

Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

John sanctified in the womb!

Lk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Lk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Zacharias is filled with the Holy Spirit and prophecy!

Lk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

The wedding couple have wine and not shame!

Jn 2: 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The disciples are supplied with faith, hope, and charity!

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

All these blessings from God because of Mary most holy!

Mother of Divine Grace!

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The throne of Grace is the throne of Mary the ever Virgin mother of God!

We come boldly to this throne cause Mary is our mother and advocate!

Mary is the storehouse of divine graces!

Lk 1:28
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

All graces come from the merits of Christ, from His passion and death and come thru Mary to the glory of Her only begotten Son!





From Genesis to revelation!

First promise of salvation!

Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Total war: enmity

None of satans works are found in Mary, she belongs entirely to God!
Even consecration herself to God at a very young age.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mary is the sign that Jesus is the messiah and divine, only God can have a virgin-mother!

Jn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

His disciples came to faith cos of Mary

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Mary’s immaculate purity, and the queen of heaven!
Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother
 

Truth7t7

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she is the mother of our savior and the mother of our salvation
All grace comes thru Mary
Jesus was born, died, and was resurrected

Mary now has no role whatsoever in mans salvation as you claim "None"
 

farouk

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Masses in America are roughly 1-1.5 hours in populated areas, is there a priest in america that does at least 3 masses in 4 hours , yes

It appears your dont believe in transubstantiation, because you agree that drinking wine that's 18% alcohol will get a priest tipsy/drunk, therefore acknowledging its wine and not actually the blood of Jesus?
@Truth7t7 I don't think GodsGrace is Roman Catholic in any case.......
 

theefaith

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Jesus was born, died, and was resurrected

Mary now has no role whatsoever in mans salvation as you claim "None"

she is the mother of our salvation
Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation Mary is his mother
Mary brought our savior matt 1:23
Mary found our salvation lost by Adam Lk 1:30
mary consented to our salvation Lk 1:38

mother of divine grace Heb 4:16
 

theefaith

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Luke 2:35
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy ownsoul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
 

farouk

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I was being a little sarcastic.
I can drink 4 glasses of wine in 4 hours and not get tipsy.

As to transubstantiation, ,
I'm on the fence right now.
I'm just not sure.

Why do you NOT believe it?
But must go now...
@GodsGrace "This is My body"; "is" in the sense of represents. Seeing as the one, true sacrifice is finished - (Hebrews chapters 9 and 10); "It is finished" (John 19.30) - then "this is My body" can be understood as a symbol which represents what happened at the Cross, rather than it's essential, supposed repetition.
 

theefaith

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@GodsGrace "This is My body"; "is" in the sense of represents. Seeing as the one, true sacrifice is finished - (Hebrews chapters 9 and 10); "It is finished" (John 19.30) - then "this is My body" can be understood as a symbol which represents what happened at the Cross, rather than it's essential, supposed repetition.

How do you know what the “it” is?

it is not his sacrifice cos it’s a perpetual sacrifice eternal sacrifice
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The “it” is the Passover

The Passover
(The new covenant Passover sacrifice of Christ)

“It is finished” not the redemptive work of Christ but the Passover sacrifice!

The cup refers to the Passover
The sacrifice prefigured the sacrifice of Christ
Christ was celebrating the Passover and changing it into the new covenant Passover in his own body and blood
Began in the last supper with the psalm then to the garden and ended with his death in the cross with the words commanded to be said at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice by the high priest “IT IS FINISHED”!!!

jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Notice the connection to his betrayal and death

1 cor 5:6-8
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast

So
The Passover
(The new covenant Passover sacrifice of Christ)


The cup refers to the Passover
The sacrifice prefigured the sacrifice of Christ
Christ was celebrating the Passover and changing it into the new covenant Passover in his own body and blood
Began in the last supper with the psalm then to the garden and ended with his death in the cross with the words commanded to be said at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice by the high priest “IT IS FINISHED”!!!

jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Notice the connection to his betrayal and death

1 cor 5:6-8
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast

So the it in “it is finished” is not the work of redemption but the Passover sacrifice!

but something is missing we have to eat the lamb

jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

“It is finished” the Passover sacrifice!
Consummation of the new Passover or the beginning of the new and eternal covenant!



The Bread and Wine sacrificed at the Last Supper is one and the same sacrifice as the Crucifixion. The Mass is a re-presentation, not a repetition. The Mass is a fulfilment of the seder meal. In heaven, Jesus offers HIMSELF to the Father (in the form of bread and wine) on our behalf, not symbols.

Heb. 9:23 – in this verse, the author writes that the Old Testament sacrifices were only copies of the heavenly things, but now heaven has better “sacrifices” than these. Why is the heavenly sacrifice called “sacrifices,” in the plural? Jesus died once. This is because, while Christ’s sacrifice is transcendent in heaven, it touches down on earth and is sacramentally re-presented over and over again from the rising of the sun to its setting around the world by the priests of Christ’s Church. This is because all moments to God are present in their immediacy, and when we offer the memorial sacrifice to God, we ask God to make the sacrifice that is eternally present to Him also present to us. Jesus’ sacrifice also transcends time and space because it was the sacrifice of God Himself.

Heb. 9:23 – the Eucharistic sacrifice also fulfills Jer. 33:18 that His kingdom will consist of a sacrificial priesthood forever, and fulfills Zech. 9:15 that the sons of Zion shall drink blood like wine and be saved.

Heb. 9:26 – Jesus’ once and for all appearance into heaven to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself shows that Jesus’ presence in heaven and His sacrifice are inseparable. This also shows that “once for all,” which refers to Jesus’ appearance in heaven, means perpetual (it does not, and cannot mean, “over and done with” because Jesus is in heaven for eternity). “Once for all” also refers to Jesus’ suffering and death (Heb. 7:27; 9:12,26;10:10-14). But “once for all” never refers to Jesus’ sacrifice, which is eternally presented to the Father. This sacrifice is the Mal. 1:11 pure offering made present in every place from the rising of the sun to its setting in the Eucharist offered in the same manner as the Melchizedek offering.

once for all
Once bloody on the cross but for all an unbloody sacrifice a clean obligation
mal 1:11

Christ is still portrayed in rev 5:6 as a lamb slain

The holy sacrifice of the mass is an unbloody sacrifice! Mal 1:11

He does not suffer, bleed and die over and over!

And there is only one propitiatory sacrifice of Christ!

The sacrifice of Christ offered once for all!
Once by Christ on the cross bloody and suffering death, and for all times His sacrifice and merits are offered to the father obtaining grace and mercy and His body and blood to unite His church with th Him in the communion church f the saints!

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
 

Illuminator

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Interpreting the Reformation is complicated business. But like many complicated things, it can be simplified sufficiently well that even non-experts can get the gist of it. Here's what seems a fairly accurate but simplified summary of the issue: The break between Catholics and Protestants was either a tragic necessity (to use Jaroslav Pelikan's expression) or it was tragic because unnecessary.

Many Protestants see the Catholic/Protestant split as a tragic necessity, although the staunchly anti-Catholic kind of Protestant often sees nothing tragic about it. Or if he does, the tragedy is that there ever was such a thing as the Roman Catholic Church that the Reformers had to separate from. His motto is "Come out from among them" and five centuries of Christian disunity has done nothing to cool his anti-Roman fervor.

Yet for most Protestants, even for most conservative Protestants, this is not so. They believe God "raised up" Luther and the other Reformers to restore the Gospel in its purity. They regret that this required a break with Roman Catholics (hence the tragedy) but fidelity to Christ, on their view, demanded it (hence the necessity).

Catholics agree with their more agreeable Protestant brethren that the sixteenth century division among Christians was tragic. But most Catholics who think about it also see it as unnecessary. At least unnecessary in the sense that what Catholics might regard as genuine issues raised by the Reformers could, on the Catholic view, have been addressed without the tragedy of dividing Christendom.

Yet we can go further than decrying the Reformation as unnecessary. In his ground-breaking work, The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, Louis Bouyer argued that the Catholic Church herself is necessary for the full flowering of the Reformation principles. In other words, you need Catholicism to make Protestantism work for Protestantism's principles fully to develop. Thus, the Reformation was not only unnecessary; it was impossible. What the Reformers sought, argues Bouyer, could not be achieved without the Catholic Church.

From Bouyer's conclusion we can infer at least two things. First, Protestantism can't be all wrong, otherwise how could the Catholic Church bring about the "full flowering of the principles of the Reformation"? Second, left to itself, Protestantism will go astray and be untrue to some of its central principles. It's these two points, as Bouyer articulates them, I would like to consider here. One thing should be said up-front: although a convert from French Protestantism, Bouyer is no anti-Protestant polemicist. His Spirit and Forms of Protestantism was written a half-century ago, a decade before Vatican II's decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, yet it avoids the bitter anti-Protestantism that sometimes afflicted pre-conciliar Catholic works on Protestantism. That's one reason the book remains useful, even after decades of post-conciliar ecumenism.

In that regard, Bouyer's brief introduction is worth quoting in full:

This book is a personal witness, a plain account of the way in which a Protestant came to feel himself obliged in conscience to give his adherence to the Catholic Church. No sentiment of revulsion turned him from the religion fostered in him by a Protestant upbringing followed by several years in the ministry. The fact is, he has never rejected it. It was his desire to explore its depths, its full scope, that led him, step by step, to a genuinely spiritual movement stemming from the teachings of the Gospel, and Protestantism as an institution, or rather complexus of institutions, hostile to one another as well as to the Catholic Church. The study of this conflict brought him to detect the fatal error which drove the spiritual movement of Protestantism out of the one Church. He saw the necessity of returning to that Church, not in order to reject any of the positive Christian elements of his religious life, but to enable them, at last, to develop without hindrance.
The writer, who carved out his way step by step, or rather, saw it opening before his eyes, hopes now to help along those who are still where he started. In addition, he would like to show those he has rejoined how a little more understanding of the others, above all a greater fidelity to their own gift, could help their 'separated brethren' to receive it in their turn. In this hope he offers his book to all who wish to be faithful to the truth, first, to the Word of God, but also to the truth of men as they are, not as our prejudices and habits impel us to see them.

Bouyer, then, addresses both Protestants and Catholics. To the Protestants, he says, in effect, "It is fidelity to our Protestant principles, properly understood, that has led me into the Catholic Church." To the Catholics, he says, "Protestantism isn't as antithetical to the Catholic Faith as you suppose. It has positive principles, as well as negative ones. Its positive principles, properly understood, belong to the Catholic Tradition, which we Catholics can see if we approach Protestantism with a bit of understanding and openness."

Bouyer's argument is that the Reformation's main principle was essentially Catholic: "Luther's basic intuition, on which Protestantism continuously draws for its abiding vitality, so far from being hard to reconcile with Catholic tradition, or inconsistent with the teaching of the Apostles, was a return to the clearest elements of their teaching, and in the most direct line of that tradition."

read more here
 
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Marymog

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I follow God the holy Spirit that dwells within me, and his guidance and teachings in the word of God, no man needed as you suggest
Finally, we agree on something. You, a man, follow what YOU believe is "his guidance and teachings" from Him. You rely on you to convince yourself what the truth is and you believe that He is guiding you. Kind of like all the other false prophets and men who have led His sheep astray.
 

Marymog

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Yes you run from response on the fairy tale of transubstantiation

Yes the wine at 18% alcohol is still the same after the supposed magical prayer of the priest, just like Santa Claus is nothing more than folklore, in fairy tales of man

Sad part is, people really believe the lies as being truth, same applies to praying the dead out of purgatory, total bondage of the masses of people, in mind control through fear
And still, no answer to the question: Who decides what a false teaching is?

Just more ramblings about 18% alchol, magical prayer, Santa Claus an purgatory.

It's a simple question.

Patient Mary
 

Marymog

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Here's a good recent example:
Catholic University Displays Painting of George Floyd as Jesus
"Yes, it’s ridiculous and worse, but remember: laughing at this foolishness will get you denounced as a “blasphemer,” that is, a “racist,” and cast into the outer darkness."
Catholic University Displays Painting of George Floyd as Jesus
Lol...Hold on kiddo.

Sooooo Kelly Latimore, an "artist" who creates controversial "art" created a picture from HER imagination and then Karna Lozoya, who is the Catholic University of America's vice president for communications, commented on the "art" and THAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES A FALSE DOCTRINE??????????? o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O