Why water into wine?

[Job]

NOTE: I am not offended so no need for an apology.

I'm glad you're not my witness.

 

[perrero]

I'm glad you're not my witness.

Why? Do you need one?

 

[bbyrd009]

If a writer today decided to write a mythical story and wanted to use names of people and places which actually exist today, would the story be partially mythical and partially historical due to him using known names and places or is a mythical story which is set in a historical setting still a mythical story in spite of the setting?

i get you, but we call that "fiction," and i also notice that now you are using the term "mythical" to mean fiction, its current use, when "mythology" is not fiction anyway, and propagates differently, etc. Fiction would never have passed muster, or propagated the same way, i don't think.

Now don't get me wrong, i'm prepared to accept that "God rained fire and brimstone on Sodom" really means "a volcano erupted and the ash cloud fell on Sodom," but see the difference, which is that there is no material difference.

 

[bbyrd009]

The whole point in understanding that the character is mythical is to cause those who idolise the man to stop worshipping an idol.

Well imo you are ignoring that Christ said He must be lifted up like a Snake on a Pole though. Iow a counterfeit is always installed, so that people may reveal their hearts. Churches did not just spontaneously arise with a false gospel, i don't think; they express the will of the people, even as they advertise expressing the will of God.

Churches that actually tell the truth would not get "tithes" as we define them today, and so the conflict of interest again reveals hearts. Stating that Jesus is mythical when you cannot prove it is just going to be counterproductive on at least a couple of levels imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

They need to understand the man is as mythical as Zeus before they will stop idolising him.

you are just going to be labelled a Christ-denier, and you are demonstrating that maybe you don't really understand "scapegoat" at all though. Even if you are materially correct--which you cannot prove, and i frankly doubt myself--you are not going to end up communicating your message i don't think.

There isn't a Christian alive hardly who has ever even heard the term "Nehushtan," why not educate them there?

 

[bbyrd009]

What exactly does "being fallen" mean to you?

being given frontal lobes and an ego with a free will is my guess.

more later, gotta run.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you are going to blame the first "Adam" in the story for the "fall" of mankind, and claim all are sinners because of it, will you also credit the last "Adam" in the story for the righteousness of mankind and believe that ALL have been forgiven and made righteous?

yes, otherwise there would be condemnation in those who are in Christ. But "forgiven" does not mean "exempt from the consequences" anyway.

 

[bbyrd009]

If mankind has been made righteous through forgiveness, are they still sinners?

if you give a toddler a pass on something simply because a toddler is not mature enough to understand, are they still going to make mistakes? Not that i see what this has to do with denying Jesus.

 

[bbyrd009]

If they are, it is no longer the fault of the first Adam but is their own stupid fault for "falling" from righteousness after they were made righteous.

yes, you reap what you sow, and the cure may be to stop finding fault.

 

[bbyrd009]

"Who told you you were naked" is no different to asking "Who convinced you that you are a sinner? Can you answer that?

it obviously came from within, call it conscience or whatever i guess. But i note in the mythology that God did not just leave them feeling guilty, but provided a covering. Granted God didn't have a problem with their nakedness though.

So it might be seen as you are trying to rip away the cover, rather than allow people to reach the same conclusion for themselves.

 

[bbyrd009]

I have accepted it but it doesn't change the fact that many still idolise a symbolic person and they need to be woken up to the fact that he is just a symbolic person who is simply setting an example to follow. If they do not follow the example, it makes no difference how much they claim to believe in him, it will do them no good at all, because even the devils believe according to James2:9 . Does that save all the devils from being devils? Does it make the devils believers? Does it make the devils righteous?

ha well i don't personify devils, they have no free will, it is pretty obviously people who manifest devils, but to your point, that people "need" something in your opinion, this may be true enough from your perspective, but nonetheless it is their perspective that you must appeal to.

 

[bbyrd009]

So don't you think it matters that they are in a Jesus cult and worshipping an idol?

i think the lesson of Nehushtan is plain, and people join Jesus cults because that reflects their hearts; we seek to fit Christ into our lives, instead of the other way around. So, you don't think it matters that you are denying that Jesus walked the earth, even though you cannot prove it, and Scripture tells a different story? If you cannot be convinced, why should they be any different?

 

[bbyrd009]

Don't you think anyone ought to try to explain to them that the character they are worshipping is a myth who is merely setting an example and teaching principles by which to live?

Don't you think anyone ought to try to explain to you that the character is 100% real for all you know and can prove, and that you are denying Scripture with this stance, even if you are not denying Christ? Or do you have some Scriptural backing for your position? Because otherwise the lesson that you are trying to illuminate is already in the Book, and my answer is no, people aren't supposed to be worshipping/praying to Christ anyway, and if they read their Bible with the Spirit as their guide they would know that and if they have voluntarily ingested some tares then they cannot hear me anyway.

 

[bbyrd009]

What matters most... to follow the example of the character or to idolise the person?

well, that depends. If someone is in the world and cannot practically follow the example, they will instead idolize the person, this is called "sitting on the fence," which is of course what most people do. So it becomes a question of "what matters most--to whom?" that i cannot see how denying Jesus' humanity can possibly affect anyway.

 

[bbyrd009]

You're a dishonest man.

i gotta tell ya Job, i was following that, and i was surprised when you suggested an apology was in order. I don't get it. He wasn't saying that you were a drinker or anything.

 

[bbyrd009]

What on earth any of this has to do with the thread subject "Water Into Wine" I have no idea!!

but that does not mean that it has nothing to do with it, just that, as you say, you have no idea. Many professing Christians are today trapped in Jesus Cults, and blissfully unaware of this, and reading the Water into Wine parable literally, rather than recognizing the pretty obvious symbology employed to make spiritual concepts more accessible, is just another symptom of this imo.

60 million believers have abandoned what you consider "church" in the developed world--imo if you care about this at all i would be entertaining any ideas whatsoever. Personally i cannot wait for churches to all get repossessed and stop spreading their lies, that produce people whose faith is in fear, but that is just me.

 

[Job]

He wasn't saying that you were a drinker or anything.

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I know innuendo when I see it.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I know innuendo when I see it.

? i didn't read it that way at all, just so you know. The comment did not appear to be innuendo toward you.

 

[Job]

? i didn't read it that way at all, just so you know. The comment did not appear to be innuendo toward you.

He had no reason to speak to me at all. All he did was lie about what I said and insinuate that I was making excuses for my drinking. Haven't drank in over 20 years. If he's got a problem with alcohol that's his business, keep it in his own yard.

People need to stop assuming they know me.

 

[bbyrd009]

insinuate that I was making excuses for my drinking. Haven't drank in over 20 years.

ah ok, i guess that was some previous comment that i missed, sorry. So maybe that was not the kindest thing to say, but are you telling me that you never used that as an excuse to drink? I mean i gotta say that i have lol.