Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

[Alethos]

No, the devil isn't dead. He's still sending his ministers to tell us he's dead.

Are you able to deal with Heb 2:14 or will continue to call me a devil?

Iron cannot sharpen iron if you wont pick up your sword.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Are you able to deal with Heb 2:14 or will continue to call me a devil?

Iron cannot sharpen iron if you wont pick up your sword.

I don't think you're a devil. You keep denying that the devil exists but you keep quoting Scriptures that mention him. If you don't believe the devil exists then stop quoting Scripture that mentions him. I.E. Heb 2:14.

 

[Alethos]

I don't think you're a devil. You keep denying that the devil exists but you keep quoting Scriptures that mention him. If you don't believe the devil exists then stop quoting Scripture that mentions him. I.E. Heb 2:14.

But that scripture state's very clearly "he is dead". You say he isnt therefore you must have an opinoin on Heb 2:14?

How do understand Heb 2:14

I have provided mine

"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

If the devil is a supposed fallen wicked angel then we have some real problems here . . .

How does Jesus taking on flesh and blood battle a powerful immortal angel? "He took not on him the nature of angels" (see verse 16).

Why was the devil destroyed with the "death" of Jesus? Wouldn't "life" been more suitable?

Doesn't this verse say that the devil is now dead not actively out deceiving souls?

Devil believers will find it impossible to reconcile these questions above stated becuase Hebrews 2:14 gives us several clues to identifying the real devil:

Jesus took on our human nature to overcome the devil. But what did he overcome?

Jesus destroyed him that has the power of death.

What had the power of death? For Jesus Christ what had the power of death?

The devil has the power of death.

So what is the Devil.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus did no sin, therefore Jesus destroyed that which had power of him...the Devil

And how did Jesus destroy the flesh?

He nailed it and its lusts, desires and affections to the cross.

Alethos

ps. Personification is commonly used in the Scriptures. For example: death is personified as "reigning" (Rom 5:14), sin as a "person" (Rom 7:11), and riches as a "master" (Matt. 6:24) and so on. Destroyed him that had...personification for flesh and blood.

 

[Duckybill]

But that scripture state's very clearly "he is dead". You say he isnt therefore you must have an opinoin on Heb 2:14?

How do understand Heb 2:14

I have provided mine

"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

If the devil is a supposed fallen wicked angel then we have some real problems here . . .

How does Jesus taking on flesh and blood battle a powerful immortal angel? "He took not on him the nature of angels" (see verse 16).

Why was the devil destroyed with the "death" of Jesus? Wouldn't "life" been more suitable?

Doesn't this verse say that the devil is now dead not actively out deceiving souls?

Devil believers will find it impossible to reconcile these questions above stated becuase Hebrews 2:14 gives us several clues to identifying the real devil:

Jesus took on our human nature to overcome the devil. But what did he overcome?

Jesus destroyed him that has the power of death.

What had the power of death? For Jesus Christ what had the power of death?

The devil has the power of death.

So what is the Devil.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus did no sin, therefore Jesus destroyed that which had power of him...the Devil

And how did Jesus destroy the flesh?

He nailed it and its lusts, desires and affections to the cross.

Alethos

ps. Personification is commonly used in the Scriptures. For example: death is personified as "reigning" (Rom 5:14), sin as a "person" (Rom 7:11), and riches as a "master" (Matt. 6:24) and so on. Destroyed him that had...personification for flesh and blood.

You can deny the devil all you like. He is mentioned throughout the Bible. If he is dead then why??? He is mentioned many times after the cross. He isn't dead, he is still deceiving.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

 

[Alethos]

You can deny the devil all you like. He is mentioned throughout the Bible. If he is dead then why??? He is mentioned many times after the cross. He isn't dead, he is still deceiving.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Ducky,

Very good statement.

If Jesus destroyed the Devil on the cross how is the devil is still active today?

Are you still being tempted? Yes
Is Jesus? No

You are getting closer to the anwser...you only need dig a little deeper.

And remember just because the word Devil appears in a verse doesnt mean its "supernatural"?

If you can find out the context or the theme of the chapter or section this will enhance your understanding of the devils,satan, demons etc.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. (WOW) [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

So how can "Satan" be transformed into an angel of light, when it is taught that he was transformed from an angel of light because of his rebellion?

Do you have an answer???

I think you will find this passage is speaking about the Jewish rebels who were undermining the apostle Paul's influence in the Corinthian ecclesia. See 2 Cor 10:2, 2 Cor 10-18, & 1 Cor 11:3-26

As Paul said: "for such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising (transforming) themselves as apostles of Christ. 2 Cor 11:13

And no wonder for even Satan (the chief leader) disguises himself as an angel of light.

Angel of Light = Disciple & Apostle

These Jewish leaders were being advasaries to the truth and pretending to come in abmongst the church. So it is not strange if his servants (misguided supporters) also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.

see also 2 Cor 11:13-15

The same Satan is refered to in 2 Cor. 2:11 "Lest Satan (referring to Jewish adversaries) should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

Tthe Aposle Paul understood their motives and wicked device trying to misled his little ones.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Why do you keep quoting Scripture about Satan if he is dead? It's because he isn't.

 

[aspen]

OK everyone talks about "accepting Christ" and "rejecting Christ", but HOW do you accept Christ???? That is the question. Is it just saying some words? Is it just believing in your heart (remember, deaf mute people can't confess with their mouth). If it is believing in your heart, then how do you know for sure you've really believed in your heart? because the "heart" is so subjective. What then does this say about people who are "false converts" or "reprobates"? This goes back to the controversial issue of eternal security, and whether it's "conditional" or "unconditional (once-saved-always-saved).

I just started another thread about what it means to "be in Christ". I believe a relationship with Christ means a lot more than saying a few words. It is sort of the same thing for me as knowing that I am married. It is a deep relationship that teaches my heart to love, which takes a life time of commitment and practice. Prayer is the cornerstone for me because just like when I communicate with my wife, which includes a lot of listening - prayer grounds me and recharges me. My tendency towards loving and serving others is how I can tell if I am in a good place with God.

 

[Alethos]

Why do you keep quoting Scripture about Satan if he is dead? It's because he isn't.

Because Scripture teaches us that Jesus overcame the Devil, Satan, Demons etc on the cross in and through his death.

But so far you cannot explain Heb 2:14 whic h in my view is a basic first principal verse.

I have provided mine

"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

If the devil is a supposed fallen wicked angel then we have some real problems here . . .

How does Jesus taking on flesh and blood battle a powerful immortal angel? "He took not on him the nature of angels" (see verse 16).

Why was the devil destroyed with the "death" of Jesus? Wouldn't "life" been more suitable?

Doesn't this verse say that the devil is now dead not actively out deceiving souls?

Devil believers will find it impossible to reconcile these questions above stated becuase Hebrews 2:14 gives us several clues to identifying the real devil:

Jesus took on our human nature to overcome the devil. But what did he overcome?

Jesus destroyed him that has the power of death.

What had the power of death? For Jesus Christ what had the power of death?

The devil has the power of death.

So what is the Devil.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus did no sin, therefore Jesus destroyed that which had power of him...the Devil

And how did Jesus destroy the flesh?

He nailed it and its lusts, desires and affections to the cross.

Alethos

ps. Personification is commonly used in the Scriptures. For example: death is personified as "reigning" (Rom 5:14), sin as a "person" (Rom 7:11), and riches as a "master" (Matt. 6:24) and so on. Destroyed him that had...personification for flesh and blood.

 

[Duckybill]

Because Scripture teaches us that Jesus overcame the Devil, Satan, Demons etc on the cross in and through his death.

But so far you cannot explain Heb 2:14 whic h in my view is a basic first principal verse.

I have provided mine

"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

If the devil is a supposed fallen wicked angel then we have some real problems here . . .

How does Jesus taking on flesh and blood battle a powerful immortal angel? "He took not on him the nature of angels" (see verse 16).

Why was the devil destroyed with the "death" of Jesus? Wouldn't "life" been more suitable?

Doesn't this verse say that the devil is now dead not actively out deceiving souls?

Devil believers will find it impossible to reconcile these questions above stated becuase Hebrews 2:14 gives us several clues to identifying the real devil:

Jesus took on our human nature to overcome the devil. But what did he overcome?

Jesus destroyed him that has the power of death.

What had the power of death? For Jesus Christ what had the power of death?

The devil has the power of death.

So what is the Devil.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus did no sin, therefore Jesus destroyed that which had power of him...the Devil

And how did Jesus destroy the flesh?

He nailed it and its lusts, desires and affections to the cross.

Alethos

ps. Personification is commonly used in the Scriptures. For example: death is personified as "reigning" (Rom 5:14), sin as a "person" (Rom 7:11), and riches as a "master" (Matt. 6:24) and so on. Destroyed him that had...personification for flesh and blood.

Satan has you trying to convince us that he is dead. He has accomplished his purpose in your life.

 

[Alethos]

Satan has you trying to convince us that he is dead. He has accomplished his purpose in your life.

What! no Devil verse this time?

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me...I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (N.I.V. "disaster"): I the Lord do all these things" Isa 45:5-7, Isa 45:22.

God creates peace and He creates evil, or disaster. God is the author, the creator of "evil" in this sense. In this sense there is a difference between "evil" and sin, which is man's fault; it entered the world as a result of man, not God (Rom 5:12). As we have discussed earlier.

Ducky, God fashions evil Himself to suit His purpose as Isa 45 teaches?

What does your Satan do?

In your next response bring some scriptures, I am enjoying our study together...even if its little one sided it does excerise my mind, which I am thankful for .

BTW is Satan a god? it appears from the above the Father is the only God.

Alethos

 

[jiggyfly]

BTW is Satan a god? it appears from the above the Father is the only God.

Alethos

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Cor.4:3&4

 

[IanLC]

Many who don't believe in the ETERNAL FIRE will soon find out that it is a very real place, with no exit.

We are made in sin and shapped in inquity. God created all things and knows all things. He knew from the very foundations when He created man that we would sin and fall short. God did not create sin, He created the choice to sin or not to sin. Sin is simply any act, thought, etc. that conflicts with God's rigteous and holy nature. He can not sin and neiither can He be around sin. Jesus Christ came as our sacrifice for sin. On the cross when Jesus said "my God, my God why hast though forsaken me?" he felt the disconnection that sin had done between mankind and God. YHWH can not look on sin or be around it. But after Jesus died he broke the wall between God and mankind. God freely gives his Spirit to man. To the ones that accept Jesus as the savior and Lord! God still demands for those who are saved by grace to live holy.

No, God did not create sin. God is holy and He would not create that which is contrary to His nature. Sinfulness is the opposite of holiness. It is lawlessness (1 John 3:4). God is the author of the Law which is a reflection of His holy character (Exodus 20). Therefore, God cannot create that which is in direct violation of the Law any more than a person can wish himself to be bigger than the sun. It just isn’t possible.

God created the conditions where free-will creatures would be able to make a choice between obedience and disobedience to God. This condition existed when God created an angel called Lucifer who was without sin yet, apparently, had free will. Lucifer chose to rebel against God and sin (Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezek. 28:13-15). Likewise, Adam and Eve, having been made by God without sin, listened to the devil and chose to sin against God (Gen. 3).



But God did not cause them to sin (James 1:13). In the freedom of their wills, each decided to rebel against God and sin entered the world (Rom. 5:12). God simply allowed the condition to exist where sin was possible.

An analogy can be found in the relationship between a parent and a child. A parent can create the condition that makes disobedience possible yet the parent remains innocent if the child sins. For example, if a parent tells his child to clean up his room and the child does not, he has rebelled. But, the parent is not responsible for the child’s sin, nor did he cause the child to sin. The child had a choice to obey or not to obey.

Likewise, God has created the condition in the world where the ability to rebel against Him was possible. Yet, he is not responsible for that rebellion once it has been committed. Therefore, sin originated with Lucifer who was the first to rebel and entered the world through Adam who likewise chose disobedience.



Scriptures to Dwell On:

"O Lord, You have appointed them for judgment;
O Rock, You have marked them for correction.
You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness." Habakkuk 1:12


"...as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, 'Be holy, for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:15-16

 

[Alethos]

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Cor.4:3&4

Who is the god (small g) of this world?
What blinds their minds?

1 Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Can you see the devil & satan?

Where does pride come from?
Where does lust come from?

FLESH.

Jiggy this is speaking about "idols" something men "worship" which "blinds" their minds, "preventing" the gospel and the love of God from entering, or controlling, their lives.

All of it is lust and pride.

Alethos

 

[aspen]

so be it!

 

[Joshua David]

Wow.. I take a little break from the board, and it explodes....

It is a tremendous amount of information here so it may take me a little while to work through it.. Good job guys.. Now this is "Meat" that I can sink my teeth into.

Joshua David

 

[Joshua David]

Alethos,


First off let me say that I can tell a real difference in your writing style.. And you have shown great patience in trying to explain your view.


Now that being said, I do understand where you are coming from. I understand that you see evil as coming from within us, and this evil is what is considered the devil, the flesh, the sin nature, the adversary to God, ect.


I have no problem believing that sin comes within us. I do not believe that Satan is the origin of sin. I believe that sin does not exist in and of itself. Now before everyone starts typing away at their keyboards to roast me alive, allow me to explain what I mean.


I see sin not existing the same way that I see darkness doesn't exist, cold doesn't exist, and holes do not exist. Take darkness, darkness is the absence of light. You can not take darkness and manipulate it. You can't add to darkness, you can only take away the light. Therefore what people consider darkness, is really just the absence of Light. Light exists, it can be changed, you can add more light and make it brighter. You can't add darkness.


The same thing can be said about cold, cold does not exist. Now heat exists and you can add heat to make it warmer or take heat away to make something colder, but coldness does not exist by itself. Holes does not technically exist, it is just the absence of matter. Like a hole in the ground. You can add earth to make the 'hole smaller' or take dirt away to make the hole bigger, but the hole in and of itself does not exist.


Evil is the absence of goodness. And since God is the ultimate source of goodness, anything that takes you further away from God, which is the source of goodness, is evil. So yes, evil exists in all of us.


So I get what you are saying... But, this is the problem that I have with your argument. You based it in a very large part on Heb 2:14. And since you support this by other scriptures, I don't have a problem with it, but you take major liberties in ascribing personification to the devil, taking it in an allegorical sense, yet you won't give the same possibility to the word 'destroy'.


"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

If the devil is a supposed fallen wicked angel then we have some real problems here . . .

How does Jesus taking on flesh and blood battle a powerful immortal angel? "He took not on him the nature of angels" (see verse 16).

Why was the devil destroyed with the "death" of Jesus? Wouldn't "life" been more suitable?

Doesn't this verse say that the devil is now dead not actively out deceiving souls?

You insist on a literal definition of the word destroy, and say that the bible claims that the devil is 'dead'. But the bible doesn't claim that at all. Destroyed can mean many different things. When a business man goes bankrupt, he could be considered to be destroyed. Does that mean that he is dead? That he ceases to be? no.


When God brought the flood on the earth. He said that he destroyed the earth. Does that mean that the earth did not exist after the flood? Of course not.


Do you see what I am saying? I understand that the bible does use Personification, but if you take all the scriptures about the devil, I believe it is too much of a stretch to say that the devil does not exist.


Let's look at Jesus explaining a parable as just one example.


Matt 13:35-40 [sup]36[/sup] Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” [sup]37[/sup] He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. [sup]38[/sup] The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, [sup]39[/sup] and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

[sup]40[/sup] “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.

Here the disciples came to Jesus and asked him to clearly explain what he meant by the parable of the sower and the seed, because like me alot of the times, they just didn't get it. They were confused, and they didn't understand. So they asked Jesus to plainly tell them what he meant.

And Jesus did. He didn't mince words, he didn't talk in parables, to explain a parable, he told them simply and directly what he meant. He 'shot from the hip' with his disciples. He told him, this means this, and this here means that. Jesus calls the enemy the devil, in simple, straightforward language.




Here are some more examples.


1 The devil tempting Jesus Matt 4:1-12
2 An eternal fire is prepared for the Devil Matt 25:41
3 The Devil has angels Matt 25:41
4 The Devil spoke to Jesus Luke 4:3
5 The Devil can be resisted James 4:7
6 The Devil prowls around 1 Peter 5:8
7 Satan afflicted Job with painful sores Job 2:7
8 The Lord rebukes Satan Zech 3:2
9 Jesus saw Satan fall from Heaven Luke 10:18
10 Satan kept a woman bound by sickness Luke 13:16


With each one of these, I could see where you might say, Well this is personification, but with all of them? After so many, the evidence builds up and builds up. Especially when you look at the ones like when Jesus said he saw Satan fall from Heaven, or Satan speaks to Jesus, or even Jesus clearly and simply declaring that a character in one of his parables is the Devil.


Too much evidence for me to be swayed.


But I am looking forward to your replies.


Joshua David
[font="'Times New Roman"]
[/font]
[font="'Times New Roman"][/font]

 

[Foreigner]

Of course the devil is not dead.


Christs' resurrection negates the devil's power if a person chooses to make Jesus his Lord and Savior.


James 4:7 says "Resist the devil and he will flee you..."


Why would we be called to resist someone who doesn't exist?


There are a number of NT scriptures warning against falling pray to Satan's influence.


Why would these divinely inspired scriptures tell us to do this if the devil was dead.


Someone here needs to wise-up.

 

[Joshua David]

Of course the devil is not dead.


Christs' resurrection negates the devil's power if a person chooses to make Jesus his Lord and Savior.


James 4:7 says "Resist the devil and he will flee you..."


Why would we be called to resist someone who doesn't exist?


There are a number of NT scriptures warning against falling pray to Satan's influence.


Why would these divinely inspired scriptures tell us to do this if the devil was dead.


Someone here needs to wise-up.

Foreigner, Truth has a different understanding of what Satan, the Devil, Lucifer is... Maybe discussing the topic from his point of view, and why you disagree with it would prove more helpful then saying that someone here needs to wise up.

Just my opinion

Joshua David

 

[paul1234]

Predictable answer...

The only way that we could have created hell would be if we were omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. So by your statement, you are saying that we are God, not Jehovah of the bible. Or that if He is God that we are more powerful Gods than He is.


You also do realize that "God" has a poor track record. Creates a defective angel who turns on Him, creates another race of beings called humans to replace defective angel, humans become defective, He then has to create a substitute for humans, which is half God, half human, who dies to redeem a the race of people who just might make it into Heaven and might not. Not only this, but He actually declares in the bible that not all people will be saved. So, we, in turn, have to live life paranoid--wishing and hoping that we will be one of the lucky "chosen" people who will be saved from eternal damnation.

YOUY SAID WISHING AND HOPING WE ARE ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES TO BE SAVED







You said if we are one of the lucky ones to be save, its faith that saves us



It’s nothing to do with luck, god gives you free will right or wrong you pick?

Go down the road that wide and broad its easy on this road sin as much as you like

This road leads to death





The road that is narrow get up tomorrow do not sin, you have taken a step of faith

You are now drawing closer to god, now god is drawing closer to you,



Live like that each day for the rest of your life, now you’re walking each day in the truth



Now you’re on the narrow road Satan will comes to you each day trying to get you to turn back to your old ways watch him. Battle lasts a life time







Jesus said people are looking in the scripture for eternal life he said the scriptures are all about me



go and study Jesus his way and his teachings



And When you do sin again you’re forgiven

 

[aspen]

Jesus showed us that the devil is powerless - a toothless lion - but he is eternal - like all of us