Alethos
New Member
Alethos,
First off let me say that I can tell a real difference in your writing style.. And you have shown great patience in trying to explain your view.
Now that being said, I do understand where you are coming from. I understand that you see evil as coming from within us, and this evil is what is considered the devil, the flesh, the sin nature, the adversary to God, ect.
I have no problem believing that sin comes within us. I do not believe that Satan is the origin of sin. I believe that sin does not exist in and of itself. Now before everyone starts typing away at their keyboards to roast me alive, allow me to explain what I mean.
I see sin not existing the same way that I see darkness doesn't exist, cold doesn't exist, and holes do not exist. Take darkness, darkness is the absence of light. You can not take darkness and manipulate it. You can't add to darkness, you can only take away the light. Therefore what people consider darkness, is really just the absence of Light. Light exists, it can be changed, you can add more light and make it brighter. You can't add darkness.
The same thing can be said about cold, cold does not exist. Now heat exists and you can add heat to make it warmer or take heat away to make something colder, but coldness does not exist by itself. Holes does not technically exist, it is just the absence of matter. Like a hole in the ground. You can add earth to make the 'hole smaller' or take dirt away to make the hole bigger, but the hole in and of itself does not exist.
Evil is the absence of goodness. And since God is the ultimate source of goodness, anything that takes you further away from God, which is the source of goodness, is evil. So yes, evil exists in all of us.
So I get what you are saying... But, this is the problem that I have with your argument. You based it in a very large part on Heb 2:14. And since you support this by other scriptures, I don't have a problem with it, but you take major liberties in ascribing personification to the devil, taking it in an allegorical sense, yet you won't give the same possibility to the word 'destroy'.
"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"
You insist on a literal definition of the word destroy, and say that the bible claims that the devil is 'dead'. But the bible doesn't claim that at all. Destroyed can mean many different things. When a business man goes bankrupt, he could be considered to be destroyed. Does that mean that he is dead? That he ceases to be? no.
When God brought the flood on the earth. He said that he destroyed the earth. Does that mean that the earth did not exist after the flood? Of course not.
Do you see what I am saying? I understand that the bible does use Personification, but if you take all the scriptures about the devil, I believe it is too much of a stretch to say that the devil does not exist.
Let's look at Jesus explaining a parable as just one example.
Matt 13:35-40 [sup]36[/sup] Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” [sup]37[/sup] He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. [sup]38[/sup] The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, [sup]39[/sup] and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
[sup]40[/sup] “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
Here the disciples came to Jesus and asked him to clearly explain what he meant by the parable of the sower and the seed, because like me alot of the times, they just didn't get it. They were confused, and they didn't understand. So they asked Jesus to plainly tell them what he meant.
And Jesus did. He didn't mince words, he didn't talk in parables, to explain a parable, he told them simply and directly what he meant. He 'shot from the hip' with his disciples. He told him, this means this, and this here means that. Jesus calls the enemy the devil, in simple, straightforward language.
Here are some more examples.
1 The devil tempting Jesus Matt 4:1-12
2 An eternal fire is prepared for the Devil Matt 25:41
3 The Devil has angels Matt 25:41
4 The Devil spoke to Jesus Luke 4:3
5 The Devil can be resisted James 4:7
6 The Devil prowls around 1 Peter 5:8
7 Satan afflicted Job with painful sores Job 2:7
8 The Lord rebukes Satan Zech 3:2
9 Jesus saw Satan fall from Heaven Luke 10:18
10 Satan kept a woman bound by sickness Luke 13:16
With each one of these, I could see where you might say, Well this is personification, but with all of them? After so many, the evidence builds up and builds up. Especially when you look at the ones like when Jesus said he saw Satan fall from Heaven, or Satan speaks to Jesus, or even Jesus clearly and simply declaring that a character in one of his parables is the Devil.
Too much evidence for me to be swayed.
But I am looking forward to your replies.
Joshua David
Hi Joshua,
Thank you for replying and demonstrating at the very lest an understanding on the source of sin.
Before we start you made an interesting observation.
Do you see what I am saying? (I do) I understand that the bible does use Personification, but if you take all the scriptures about the devil, I believe it is too much of a stretch to say that the devil does not exist.
Based on prior responses you can see that each personification is not simply speaking to the flesh & sin but to those who are false accusers, slanderers or adversaries.
Here is an example.
Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."
If Ducky were reading this verse he would say the Apostle Peter is Satan.
Quite often the Satan is well defined if we read the verses in context.
Jesus here is setting his mind towards Jerusalem and his impending death. Peter basically tells the Lord "no you don’t have to die"!!!
Therefore Jesus teaches us about the two separate minds.
1 Carnal (Animal) "Satan" styled here is the "things of man"
2. Spiritual (Heavenly) minding the things of God.
Jesus actually teaches EVERYONE in this forum that SATAN is a Hindrance an adversary and then Jesus explain exactly what he means by Satan!
Joshua, many in this forum will not understand this scripture nor its context and application. I would be very content if you were able to say here in Matt 16:23 that "yes" this is personification not of just sin, but "the mind of the flesh" "the mind of man which is at enmity with the Father.
In the Lords Service
Alethos
ps. I will get to your list of quotes