Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

[Alethos]

Alethos,


First off let me say that I can tell a real difference in your writing style.. And you have shown great patience in trying to explain your view.


Now that being said, I do understand where you are coming from. I understand that you see evil as coming from within us, and this evil is what is considered the devil, the flesh, the sin nature, the adversary to God, ect.


I have no problem believing that sin comes within us. I do not believe that Satan is the origin of sin. I believe that sin does not exist in and of itself. Now before everyone starts typing away at their keyboards to roast me alive, allow me to explain what I mean.


I see sin not existing the same way that I see darkness doesn't exist, cold doesn't exist, and holes do not exist. Take darkness, darkness is the absence of light. You can not take darkness and manipulate it. You can't add to darkness, you can only take away the light. Therefore what people consider darkness, is really just the absence of Light. Light exists, it can be changed, you can add more light and make it brighter. You can't add darkness.


The same thing can be said about cold, cold does not exist. Now heat exists and you can add heat to make it warmer or take heat away to make something colder, but coldness does not exist by itself. Holes does not technically exist, it is just the absence of matter. Like a hole in the ground. You can add earth to make the 'hole smaller' or take dirt away to make the hole bigger, but the hole in and of itself does not exist.


Evil is the absence of goodness. And since God is the ultimate source of goodness, anything that takes you further away from God, which is the source of goodness, is evil. So yes, evil exists in all of us.


So I get what you are saying... But, this is the problem that I have with your argument. You based it in a very large part on Heb 2:14. And since you support this by other scriptures, I don't have a problem with it, but you take major liberties in ascribing personification to the devil, taking it in an allegorical sense, yet you won't give the same possibility to the word 'destroy'.


"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"





You insist on a literal definition of the word destroy, and say that the bible claims that the devil is 'dead'. But the bible doesn't claim that at all. Destroyed can mean many different things. When a business man goes bankrupt, he could be considered to be destroyed. Does that mean that he is dead? That he ceases to be? no.


When God brought the flood on the earth. He said that he destroyed the earth. Does that mean that the earth did not exist after the flood? Of course not.


Do you see what I am saying? I understand that the bible does use Personification, but if you take all the scriptures about the devil, I believe it is too much of a stretch to say that the devil does not exist.


Let's look at Jesus explaining a parable as just one example.


Matt 13:35-40 [sup]36[/sup] Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” [sup]37[/sup] He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. [sup]38[/sup] The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, [sup]39[/sup] and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

[sup]40[/sup] “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.

Here the disciples came to Jesus and asked him to clearly explain what he meant by the parable of the sower and the seed, because like me alot of the times, they just didn't get it. They were confused, and they didn't understand. So they asked Jesus to plainly tell them what he meant.

And Jesus did. He didn't mince words, he didn't talk in parables, to explain a parable, he told them simply and directly what he meant. He 'shot from the hip' with his disciples. He told him, this means this, and this here means that. Jesus calls the enemy the devil, in simple, straightforward language.




Here are some more examples.


1 The devil tempting Jesus Matt 4:1-12
2 An eternal fire is prepared for the Devil Matt 25:41
3 The Devil has angels Matt 25:41
4 The Devil spoke to Jesus Luke 4:3
5 The Devil can be resisted James 4:7
6 The Devil prowls around 1 Peter 5:8
7 Satan afflicted Job with painful sores Job 2:7
8 The Lord rebukes Satan Zech 3:2
9 Jesus saw Satan fall from Heaven Luke 10:18
10 Satan kept a woman bound by sickness Luke 13:16


With each one of these, I could see where you might say, Well this is personification, but with all of them? After so many, the evidence builds up and builds up. Especially when you look at the ones like when Jesus said he saw Satan fall from Heaven, or Satan speaks to Jesus, or even Jesus clearly and simply declaring that a character in one of his parables is the Devil.


Too much evidence for me to be swayed.


But I am looking forward to your replies.


Joshua David

Hi Joshua,

Thank you for replying and demonstrating at the very lest an understanding on the source of sin.

Before we start you made an interesting observation.

Do you see what I am saying? (I do) I understand that the bible does use Personification, but if you take all the scriptures about the devil, I believe it is too much of a stretch to say that the devil does not exist.

Based on prior responses you can see that each personification is not simply speaking to the flesh & sin but to those who are false accusers, slanderers or adversaries.

Here is an example.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."

If Ducky were reading this verse he would say the Apostle Peter is Satan.

Quite often the Satan is well defined if we read the verses in context.

Jesus here is setting his mind towards Jerusalem and his impending death. Peter basically tells the Lord "no you don’t have to die"!!!

Therefore Jesus teaches us about the two separate minds.

1 Carnal (Animal) "Satan" styled here is the "things of man"
2. Spiritual (Heavenly) minding the things of God.

Jesus actually teaches EVERYONE in this forum that SATAN is a Hindrance an adversary and then Jesus explain exactly what he means by Satan!

Joshua, many in this forum will not understand this scripture nor its context and application. I would be very content if you were able to say here in Matt 16:23 that "yes" this is personification not of just sin, but "the mind of the flesh" "the mind of man which is at enmity with the Father.

In the Lords Service

Alethos

ps. I will get to your list of quotes

 

[Amazing Grace]

Boy if Satan were dead it would be good. Unfortunately he is still alive and kicking.

He gets fried at the end of the Millenium and then gets thrown into the pit of fire. Not a nice end but he certainly did plenty to deserve it.

However I will leave it up to you guys to debate this one.

I can't even recall what the original topic was and what I wrote earlier. Too far back and lots has been said since I put my two pennies worth in here.

 

[Alethos]

Boy if Satan were dead it would be good. Unfortunately he is still alive and kicking.

He gets fried at the end of the Millenium and then gets thrown into the pit of fire. Not a nice end but he certainly did plenty to deserve it.

However I will leave it up to you guys to debate this one.

I can't even recall what the original topic was and what I wrote earlier. Too far back and lots has been said since I put my two pennies worth in here.

Satan is not dead - its just you dont understand how the word Satan has been used in the Holy Writ. Dont be like Ducky and assume you know the Scriptures without approaching them with an open and teachable mind. (spoken gently and in love)

Unfortunately your "concept" of Satan is vastly different to the teaching of the Bible.

As I have clearly demonstrated with my friend Ducky.

Who by the way has been very silent of late?

Alethos.

Is the Apostle Peter really "Satan" hope not! :blink:

 

[aspen]

Joshua David - I did not quote you, but I want to tell you how thankful I am for your posts.

Keep posting, please do not get discouraged!

 

[Amazing Grace]

Satan is not dead - its just you dont understand how the word Satan has been used in the Holy Writ. Dont be like Ducky and assume you know the Scriptures without approaching them with an open and teachable mind. (spoken gently and in love)

Unfortunately your "concept" of Satan is vastly different to the teaching of the Bible.

As I have clearly demonstrated with my friend Ducky.

Who by the way has been very silent of late?

You have good reflexes I can see your kneejerk reaction!

Did you read my whole post? I doubt it as you obviously didn't get past the first lines which was.....

Boy if Satan were dead it would be good. Unfortunately he is still alive and kicking.

If you care to re-read what it says up there taking in the bold and underlined words. You will notice I made a conjecture and then answered my query. Which means that I was saying Satan is not dead yet.

Then if you went down you would see i was quoting that Satan is dealt with finally at the End of the Millenium (which is in scripture, I don't what Bible you read but give the End of Revelation a go the last few chapters will do).

Have we gone past the End of the Millenium because if we did and missed it then we are in big trouble as the Bible Pretty well ends at the end of the Millenium with the White Throne judgement and then New Heaven and Earth and there is Eternity (in which ever place you end up).

If you are going to razz me out do so based on what I actually said not what you perceived I said because you didn't read my post.

Boy some of you have real good reflexes, super quick here.

By the way I believe in Satan in the traditional manner. The Devil who will be thrown in the Lake of fire at the end of God dealing with him and mankind on this earth. The fallen Angel Lucifer. An actual adversary of God. If there is another kind of devil I'm not interested in them thanks. I don't adhere to Alternate theologies I'm happy to stick to the conservative old school teachings on this topic thank you.

 

[Joshua David]

Joshua David - I did not quote you, but I want to tell you how thankful I am for your posts.

Keep posting, please do not get discouraged!

Thank you very much for your kind words Aspen. I wanted you to know that you made my day today.

Truth I can admit that there are times in that the bible that the word Satan doesn't necessarily refer to a specific Fallen Angel. And in the verse that you quoted, Yes, a strong case can be made that he is referring to the natural and carnal mind of Peter. I mean, Peter was so mentally locked into believing that he knew exactly what the scriptures said, and that he knew for a fact exactly what was going to happen, that anyone who disagreed with him was naturally wrong. This was the mind set that Peter had. He had read the scriptures, he knows that the Messiah is suppose to set up the Kingdom. He knows that Jesus is the Messiah. So naturally Jesus will one day set up the Kingdom, which obviously he couldn't do if Jesus was suppose to die. So when Jesus kept talking about all this dieing, Peter took him aside and actually rebuked him. Think about this for a minute. Peter was so convinced that he was right that he rebuked the Messiah himself. His whole mentality was one of arrogance and pride. And at this moment he was an adversary to God, and he quite well deserved the title of Satan.

But..... There are cases where this argument could be made, and then there are cases where this type of personification doesn't really make sense. So I will wait for your reply before I go on.

Joshua David

 

[Amazing Grace]

Truth

Just in case we don't seem to have the same kind of Bible. From my NIV copy.

REV 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

REV 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

REV 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

REV 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

REV 21:6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

It is pretty straight forward no great interpretation skills required to know what happens to Satan in the End or When it happens.

I noticed there is some dispute as to the names of Satan being equal to "Lucifer the fallen Angel".

REV 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

The scripture above leaves Little room for connecting the Fallen Angel Lucifer with Satan and his other names of Devil, Dragon and Serpent.

All names for the same Being.

If additional scripture required.

EZE 28:13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

EZE 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

EZE 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

EZE 28:16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

EZE 28:17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

It is pretty obvious that the scriptures are talking about HOW Lucifer was thrown out of heaven and hurled down upon the Earth in digrace. From beautiful Angel to Ugly Devil, Satan, the ancient serpent, the Dragon. All one and the same.

 

[Alethos]

Truth

Just in case we don't seem to have the same kind of Bible. From my NIV copy.



It is pretty straight forward no great interpretation skills required to know what happens to Satan in the End or When it happens.

I noticed there is some dispute as to the names of Satan being equal to "Lucifer the fallen Angel".



The scripture above leaves Little room for connecting the Fallen Angel Lucifer with Satan and his other names of Devil, Dragon and Serpent.

All names for the same Being.

If additional scripture required.



It is pretty obvious that the scriptures are talking about HOW Lucifer was thrown out of heaven and hurled down upon the Earth in digrace. From beautiful Angel to Ugly Devil, Satan, the ancient serpent, the Dragon. All one and the same.

I noticed you quoted the Proheptical writings Rev & Ezek (highly symbolic) a lot of Christians quote these works with very little, if any understanding.

Stick to Heb 2:14 which as I stated is a "key verse"...understand that verse and much of the scriptures can be opened to you...stay with your supernatural assumptions and remain in relative darkness.

Alethos.

 

[Alethos]

Thank you very much for your kind words Aspen. I wanted you to know that you made my day today.

Truth I can admit that there are times in that the bible that the word Satan doesn't necessarily refer to a specific Fallen Angel.

Very well...it is pleasing to see you are not one who plasters "devil" quotes all over the place and thinks its "supernatural" devils.

And in the verse that you quoted, Yes, a strong case can be made that he is referring to the natural and carnal mind of Peter. I mean, Peter was so mentally locked into believing that he knew exactly what the scriptures said, and that he knew for a fact exactly what was going to happen, that anyone who disagreed with him was naturally wrong. This was the mind set that Peter had. He had read the scriptures, he knows that the Messiah is suppose to set up the Kingdom. He knows that Jesus is the Messiah. So naturally Jesus will one day set up the Kingdom, which obviously he couldn't do if Jesus was suppose to die. So when Jesus kept talking about all this dieing, Peter took him aside and actually rebuked him. Think about this for a minute. Peter was so convinced that he was right that he rebuked the Messiah himself. His whole mentality was one of arrogance and pride. And at this moment he was an adversary to God, and he quite well deserved the title of Satan.

Agreed

But..... There are cases where this argument could be made, and then there are cases where this type of personification doesn't really make sense. So I will wait for your reply before I go on.

Your approach to the Word of God is rarely seen these days and others here in the forum should also see your example. The Father has blessed you with an enquiring mind . I dont say this becuase you have partially agreed with the interpratation. Its the honour of Kings to search out a matter and it is this honour we all need to aspire. You are willing to reason upon the word of God and that my friend is very rare.

Can I assume at some point you will address Matt 4?

I am sure others like Ducky, Aspen and Amazing Grace are all reading these posts and maybe you are all interested in how I interpret some of the more differcult passages concerning the Devil, Satan, Demons so called fallen angels? I do agree, God Has hidden his wisdom deep (very deep) so we must dig and continue to dig...thats why misquoting Scriptures frustrates me immensly, so if I get impatient, like I did with Ducky, please let me know!

I will now deal with Matt 25:41 in the next post.

 

[Amazing Grace]

I noticed you quoted the Proheptical writings Rev & Ezek (highly symbolic) a lot of Christians quote these works with very little, if any understanding.

Stick to Heb 2:14 which as I stated is a "key verse"...understand that verse and much of the scriptures can be opened to you...stay with your supernatural assumptions and remain in relative darkness.

Alethos.

Altheos

HEB 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil-- 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

For if Satan had been killed by Jesus on the Cross here then the Apostles were all incorrect of making any mention of Satan after this event.

Yes I agree with you many Christians don't have a grasp of these prophectic books but I don't have time to teach you at the moment. Nor do I have the time or the inclination to give you instruction in how one should go about reading and interpreting scripture.

Others here have tried and I am not wasting my time trying to do the same thing and getting the same results they did.

Anyway good luck with your theory.

 

[Alethos]

Altheos



For if Satan had been killed by Jesus on the Cross here then the Apostles were all incorrect of making any mention of Satan after this event.

Yes I agree with you many Christians don't have a grasp of these prophectic books but I don't have time to teach you at the moment. Nor do I have the time or the inclination to give you instruction in how one should go about reading and interpreting scripture.

Others here have tried and I am not wasting my time trying to do the same thing and getting the same results they did.

Anyway good luck with your theory.

In other words you are saying I dont understand Heb 2:14 I am not willing that you teach me and I will hold onto my preconcieved ideas.

I accept your position.

If you want to "better" understand Heb 2:14 and other such passages in ref to believing in devils and satan.

I am here "God Willing".

I am saddened you gave up on me so quickly.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

You insist on a literal definition of the word destroy, and say that the bible claims that the devil is 'dead'. But the bible doesn't claim that at all. Destroyed can mean many different things. When a business man goes bankrupt, he could be considered to be destroyed. Does that mean that he is dead? That he ceases to be? no.

Ok, so you ask of me "destroyed can mean many diferent things"???? and not devils & satan????

I have never said the Devil is dead! It is dead to Jesus Christ because he partook of flesh and blood and overcame that which stood between him and God. Are you flesh and blood? have you overcome your sin ridden nature? The devil is very much alive and you my brother are yet to overcome that which falsely accusers you before God. What stands between you and being with the Father?

FLESH!!!!!

The DEVIL IS DEAD FOR THE LORD JESUS !!!!! That is plainly clear.

 

[justaname]

This is THE QUESTION of the ages. It's been asked millions of times by millions of people. But there has yet to be an answer.

The new going cliche' is that "God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves." This sounds catchy, but how much truth really is there to this? This would lead one to examine the subject of Free will, election, and predeterminism. I've found that it is impossible to discuss hell without getting into other theological subjects, because it all ties together.

It then always leads back to the question, IF God is in fact omnipresent (everywhere at the same time) omnipotent (all powerful), and omniscient (all knowing), why did He ever allow "sin" or evil to enter into Heaven (where sin began in the form of pride)? If He doesn't make mistakes, how did He manage to create a defective angel? If He is all knowing, why was He furious at Lucifer's rebellion as if He was surprised? If He knew what Lucifer was going to do before He created Him (which the bible clearly illustrates that He did), this means that He created evil (Isaiah 45:7). The bible says that He had already made the plan of redemption from before the foundations of the world. So, it should be a no-brainer that God orchestrated all of the bad along with the good. David even said that God was in hell, as well as Heaven. It would makes sense, because the bible says that the Heavens of Heavens can't contain God, so hell would also have to be inside of God.

I don't understand how Christians come up with the argument that God is not behind disaster and destruction, when it is as clear as day in Isaiah 45:7 alone, not to meantion the many passages throughout scripture that reiterates God's for knowledge of the bad, as well as the good. If He was only all knowing, then, I could see the possibility of Him not being behind evil. But when you put "all powerful and ever present together with all seeing, you have a God who has the upper hand in every single situation and idea. He is the master chess player.

So, my question is, if God is love--not just has love but IS love, what does this say about love? Is love itself a deceitful term? We know that Go hates, because it states examples of His hate all through the bible. Not to be in any way sacrilegious (it's not blasphemous because I'm not accusing), but one cannot HELP but at least wonder if "God" is really a tyrant at least, and a moral monster at the most. Like what excuse can you offer for this biblical God. What reasoning can you come up with to make Him look like less than a universal manipulator?

I can already hear the blasphemy police coming. So, again, I'm not trying to be sacrilegious, I'm just being honest.

[font="'Times New Roman"]
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[font="'Times New Roman"]What you ask about is very difficult for anyone to understand but allow me through my feeble concepts try to explain. [/font]
[font="'Times New Roman"]If he didn't create what he did, how he did, would you even be here? If there was a better way of achieving what God intended, do you not believe the creator of all things would have done that instead? [/font]Do you think you could have done a better job creating than he did? Satan does believe this along with believing he is wiser than God. Satan is being proved wrong until the last of what has been written is completed.

I suppose a little more to the point of yours is why did he create the way he did. Only God could truly explain that but let me speculate.
Maybe so we can better understand his love and grow accordingly inside him.
Maybe he created this defective angle so one might see how his nature is not. As we know, God is the only good anywhere. We also know all things work in accordance to his plan and hence goodness. How could we know any measure of his goodness without the exemplification of evil? Yet again in accordance with God's nature we know he hates sin and evil and must be absent of it. Still there is free will (Another example of God's love, would a tyrant give us this?). For free will to exist we need both good and evil, but God is love, holy, and only good. With Satan being the vessel of evil, orchestrator of evil, that hurdle is overcome. Evil wants to dominate and force its will which would never allow for free will. In accordance with God's plan as it is written, that vessel will be disposed of so we may have that euphoric sinless existence we long for.
Possibly there is more going on than we can see or know through our existence, or dimension, or experience. Maybe something God is experiencing through us, his creation.
Maybe the sin was let in so you may be saved by our lord Jesus Christ to have life everlasting with him. Maybe he wanted you there after you have experienced free will here first.
One can only truly guess as to why God does what he does, but it is not for us to question why. It is for us to trust in him.

 

[Alethos]

But..... There are cases where this argument could be made, and then there are cases where this type of personification doesn't really make sense. So I will wait for your reply before I go on.

Joshua David

Matt 25: 31-46​

The Lords ministry is drawing to a close and his messaged sure has changed from Matt 5-7. Remember Matt 23 was the last time he spoke to Israel as a Nation (woes). Now the intensity increases as the cross looms ever closer.

I have highlighted in red the context of this section of Scripture under consideration.

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations

[sup]31[/sup] “When the Son of Man (Jesus) comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory (Throne of David). [sup]32[/sup] All the nations (man and women bond and free etc) will be gathered before Him (Jesus), and He (Jesus) will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. [sup]33[/sup] And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. [sup]34[/sup] Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [sup]35[/sup] for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; [sup]36[/sup] I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ [sup]37[/sup] “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? [sup]38[/sup] When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? [sup]39[/sup] Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ [sup]40[/sup] And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ [sup]41[/sup] “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: [sup]42[/sup] for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; [sup]43[/sup] I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ [sup]44[/sup] “Then they also will answer Him,[sup][[/sup][sup]d[/sup][sup]][/sup] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ [sup]45[/sup] Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ [sup]46[/sup] And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

So Jesus uses terms such as: Everlasting Fire – Devil - Angels - Everlasting Punishment

Everlasting Fire & Everlasting Punishment:

Why did Jesus use such extreme language when speaking of death?

Everlasting means exactly as it sounds, something without beginning or end. Hence the reason or basis for Christians taken a “literal” approach to mean a place of “eternal” torment!

Clearly Jesus is being highly symbolic towards the those who "show no love to his fellow neighbour" (see context red text).

So this record is all about what happens to us when we die. Its about the judgement and what proceeds from those who are sheep and those goats.

James 4:14; 2 Sam 14:14; Ps. 90:5, Psalm 90:6 Ps. 90:12 Gen 2:17 1 Cor 15:13-17 1 Cor. 15:47 Gen. 18:27

Death is spoken extensively in the scriptures as a place of unconsciousness, a place of nothingness.

"(Man's) breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day (moment) his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4).

"The dead know not anything...their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished" (Ecc. 9:5,6). There is no "wisdom in the grave" (Ecc. 9:10) - no thinking and therefore no consciousness.

The grave then becomes a symbol of utter destruction and not a place of eternal torment. Especially for those who KNOW once judged their end is permanant silence in the grave.

Yahweh is full of grace and truth and anyone who believes God can allow tortured souls to be punished in some firery demonic abode has swallowed some dangerous error. And I am genuinly sadenned becuase my God is all powerful in the Heavens and on Earth and is not limited in anyway, at all.

Concerning death Job says he would be "as though he had not been" (Job 10:18) he saw death as the oblivion, unconsciousness and total lack of existence which we had before we were born.

The wise man Solomon wrote concerning Man that when he dies, he dies as the animals do (Ecc 3:18) if man consciously survives death somewhere, so must they, yet both Scripture and science are silent about this.

God "remembereth that we are dust. As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth...it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more" (Ps 103:14-16).

How does everlasting fire fit into the account of the grave? What’s the connection between everlasting fire and punishment and the congregation of the dead?

Hell Fire - Everlasting Fire - Punishment

Jesus referred to a physical “ever burning” rubbish tip outside the walls of Jerusalem. He did so many many times to demonstrate/illustrate literally and symbolically their death.

You are like a dead person thrown on this tip. If you died without family, they would throw your dead decaying body onto this ever burning tip. (Sad I know) But how else could Jesus teach them the reality of their calling and the severity of their end?

• Matt.5:22 whoever calls someone "you fool" will be liable to Gehenna.
• Matt.5:29 better to lose one of your members than that your whole body go into Gehenna.
• Matt.5:30 better to lose one of your members than that your whole body go into Gehenna.
• Matt.10:28 rather fear him who can destroy both soul (life) and body in Gehenna.
• Matt.18:9 better to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna. (thrown)
• Matt.23:15 Pharisee make a convert twice as much a child of Gehenna as themselves.
• Matt.23:33 to Pharisees: you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to Gehenna?
• Mark 9:43 better to enter life with one hand than with two hands to go to Gehenna.
• Mark 9:45 better to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into Gehenna. (See the word thrown)
• Mark 9:47 better to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna (See the word thrown!)
• Luke 12:5 Fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into Gehenna (Hell Fire)
• James 3:6 the tongue is set on fire by Gehenna. (Here defined)

Gehenna is also translated Hell Fire and formed a very important part of the Lords ministry.

I hope we get the lesson because many didn’t!

Devil –

As per previous studies clearly those who are titled "false accuses" via their fleshly actions and their angels ie. messengers - Jesus is speaking to total group sum up as False Accuser and their Messengers. Hard message for the Pharisees to hear - their hierarchy and their scouts would all go to the one place forever.

therefore:

Righteous = Eternal Living (us God Willing)

Unrighteous = Everlasting Fire / Punishment = Death (Pharisees & Sadducees and all those who falsely represent the Son and the Father)

Angels –

You may be aware angels are interchangeable for messengers and here this is not saying Heavenly Angels who are fallen will be sent into a demonic fiery abode.

Creative, but clearly unscriptural.

Can be continued...

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

The Devil (sin) can be resisted James 4:7

This passage has been quoted by a number of forum participants and this one is relatively easy to interpret.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he (personified) will flee from you.

James is the Master of illustrations and here is clearly another case in mention. How do you resist temptation? Submission to the divine mind and not using the carnal fleshly mind which is one of the main themes of James Epistles, Chapter 1 especially.

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

In the Chapter what are we to flee from?

Double Mindedness

1-Canal Mind
2-Spiritual Mind

Flee from the mind that will take you away from God and cause you not to draw close. In this chapter James has outlined the characteristic of a carnal mind.

Ye lust, and have not.

Where does lust come from?

desire to have, and cannot obtain

Where does wrong desire come from?

friendship of the world is enmity (hatred) with God?

Friendship with the world, not SATAN or DEVIL but the world and what it stands for.

God resisteth the proud

Where does pride come from?

From whence come wars and fightings among you?

SATAN???? wars and fighting are fleshly traits. And James provides the answer....

even of your lusts that war in your members?

These lusts are what come between us and our God; they keep us from prayer and not some supernatural being.

What hinders your prayers?

Asking amiss James 4:3
Sin Isa 59:1-2
Ignoring others Pro 21:13
Failure to forgive others Mark 11:25
Faulty family relationships 1 Pe 3:7
Doubt James 5:7
And so on...

All these are styled the "Devil" and yes I encourage NOT to submit to its devices...in other word flee from being double minded.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Usually Devil believers quote Job 1:6 as it is the first occurrence of Satan in the book.

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." Job 1:6

Satan afflicted Job with painful sores Job 2:7

I will look at this Scripture as one who believes in a Fallen Angel, even though it’s erroneous to all my spiritual senses.

Why doesn’t it give more information about Satan being a fallen angel?

Why does God give the Satan (Adversary) the power? Job 42:11

How can Satan supposedly attend "a conference" in heaven about Job:

"To present themselves before the LORD" (Job 1:6); "so Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD" (Job 2:7).

Such a conference would need to take place in Heaven?

How can they be to be standing "before the LORD?

Well the following has happened before Deut 19:17.

For Satan to leave the presence of the Lord (Job 1:12) Satan "adversary" Job 1:6 would need to have had access to the dwelling place of God in heaven???

I know Cain "went out from the presence of the LORD" Gen. 4:16 and he certainly was not in heaven.

So here is the thrust of my issues with this being a supernatural devil.

I know it is impossible for a rebel angel to both have access to the dwelling place of God in heaven and that God would tolerate such evil in his presence.

God does not tolerate evil "Evil may not sojourn with thee." Psa 5:4-5

"Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity" (Hab. 1:13).

How then could a rebel angel have access to heaven from before the creation of Adam and Eve? Or how can Satan be cast out of heaven before the creation of Adam and Eve, and manage to regain access to heaven?

Another issue with a fallen angel:

The Lords Prayer:

"Thy Kingdom come. Thy (Gods) will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." (Matt. 6:10).

So God will isn’t done in Heaven?

It was Gods Will to turn one of his pure angels into an evil being?

So if God doesn’t have all power, authority and rulership in the Heavens how can you rely on Him? If He lacks control? Can we doubt God?

AND is there disorder in Heaven?

I find it strange that Job NEVER acknowledges the fallen angel considering all that happened to him? Rather he attributes it to God.

"The hand of God hath touched me". Job 19:21 compare Job 2:10

Even Job's brethren, sisters and acquaintances acknowledged that the evil was brought upon Job by the LORD:

"they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him." (Job 42:11).

Job 42:11 must cause all kinds of trouble for Devil believers?

Conclusion:

The scripture does not provide us a positive i.d on the SATAN although some evidence might suggest some of his number had conspired against Job due to his prosperity and apparent righteousness, but this too in only inferred, also some think it might have been an Angel (less likely in my view). Ultimately "the secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us". (Deut. 29:29).

Love in the Master

Alethos

 

[Joshua David]

Alethos,

I am working my way through your posts. There is alot of information there so it make take me a little time.

Joshua David

 

[justaname]

Hebrews 2:14 is the key verse in the study of the Devil

"Forasmuch then as the children (us) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

If the devil is a supposed fallen wicked angel then we have some real problems here . . .

How does Jesus taking on flesh and blood battle a powerful immortal angel? "He took not on him the nature of angels" (see verse 16).

Why was the devil destroyed with the "death" of Jesus? Wouldn't "life" been more suitable?

Doesn't this verse say that the devil is now dead not actively out deceiving souls?

Devil believers will find it impossible to reconcile these questions above stated becuase Hebrews 2:14 gives us several clues to identifying the real devil:

Jesus took on our human nature to overcome the devil. But what did he overcome?

Jesus destroyed him that has the power of death.

What had the power of death? For Jesus Christ what had the power of death?

The devil has the power of death.

So what is the Devil.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus did no sin, therefore Jesus destroyed that which had power of him...the Devil

And how did Jesus destroy the flesh?

He nailed it and its lusts, desires and affections to the cross.

Alethos

ps. Personification is commonly used in the Scriptures. For example: death is personified as "reigning" (Rom 5:14), sin as a "person" (Rom 7:11), and riches as a "master" (Matt. 6:24) and so on. Destroyed him that had...personification for flesh and blood.

Please explain Gen 3. Who was this serpent. Who are the Cherubims? Please explain Gen 6: 1-2. Why the whole story of Adam and Eve to begin with? What about Job 1: 6-12 and 2: 1- 7 Did Job go to bring these evils upon himself? Was it Job's cardinal nature that put boils on his own feet?

 

[jiggyfly]

Please explain Gen 3. Who was this serpent. Who are the Cherubims? Please explain Gen 6: 1-2. Why the whole story of Adam and Eve to begin with? What about Job 1: 6-12 and 2: 1- 7 Did Job go to bring these evils upon himself? Was it Job's cardinal nature that put boils on his own feet?

Very good points Justaname.

One day the angels [fn] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan the Accuser came with them. "Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan. And Satan answered the LORD, "I have been going back and forth across the earth, watching everything that's going on." Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil."

 

[Joshua David]

I noticed you quoted the Proheptical writings Rev & Ezek (highly symbolic) a lot of Christians quote these works with very little, if any understanding.

Stick to Heb 2:14 which as I stated is a "key verse"...understand that verse and much of the scriptures can be opened to you...stay with your supernatural assumptions and remain in relative darkness.

Alethos.

Before I get started on your reply, I just wanted to comment on your comment to Amazing Grace.

Do not forget this scripture

2 Tim 3:16 [sup]16[/sup] All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

All Scripture means all scripture, including Revelations and Ezekiel. I do not have a problem with you calling a lot of their content highly symbolic, but to dismiss it out of hand by saying that a lot of Christians have very little if any understanding is getting you back on that arrogance trail. Let's all try to stay a little more patient. ( you did ask me to remind you remember

)

Ok, so you ask of me "destroyed can mean many diferent things"???? and not devils & satan????

I have never said the Devil is dead! It is dead to Jesus Christ because he partook of flesh and blood and overcame that which stood between him and God. Are you flesh and blood? have you overcome your sin ridden nature? The devil is very much alive and you my brother are yet to overcome that which falsely accusers you before God. What stands between you and being with the Father?

FLESH!!!!!

The DEVIL IS DEAD FOR THE LORD JESUS !!!!! That is plainly clear.

Yes I asked you about the word destroyed and not about the Devils and Satan. I thought I had a pretty good grasp on your ideas on Devils and Satan. At least to that point, which I tried to explain in my posts. And since you want to concentrate so much on this one verse then I believe that it is vital to really and fully understand, as much as we are able, the meaning of every word in the verse.

Ok.. Now I am ready to discuss Matt 4. Sorry about taking so long to get to it.. I am trying to keep up as best I can.

You will find the below quotations as those Scriptures used to support a supernatural evil Devil or Satan

1. The devil is a fallen angel. (e.g., Job 1; Rev. 12).

This presents the problem of God having all power in Heaven. Also suggest eternal / immortal beings can sin. Hopefully you both have come to an understanding that flesh is the source of sin...not a divine beings full of pure light andd glory!

That would depend on whether you think that Angels have free will or not. I personally believe that Angels have free-will. Go back to my discussion on does evil exist. The only thing that is required for evil and sin to exist is the possibility of turning from God. If you believe that Angel are incapable of free-will, then I can understand why you would have an issue with a fallen Angel. I believe that they do, because I believe that Satan fell, as evidenced by the scriptures in Rev and Ezek, as well as Jesus on words when he said, He saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning." Luke 10:18. These are just some of the scriptural reasons that I believe that Angels can fall and sin. What are your scriptural reasons for believing that they have no free will?

1. Supernatural being forcing Christ into the wilderness to encourage sin
2. External person or persons provoking him to sin
3. Jesus himself - his carnal mind wanting to use the power for illgain.

I did say I would deal with Matt 4...so here goes

If the devil were a fallen angel, why would the Holy Spirit lead the Son of God into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil?

You agree that this is the "temptation of Christ"?

And we know Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are" yet without sin (Heb. 4:15), but who today is ever engaged in discussion by a fallen angel devil?

Before I answer, let me take a sec, and qualify something. The bible uses the word 'flesh' in two different ways in the bible. One referred to the physical part of man's body, the skin cells, hair follicles, and muscle fibers. The other way that it is used is to contrast it with the 'spirit', which draws us toward God. This is our 'sin nature' and our 'carnal mind'. This is not only the "knowledge of evil" that is passed down from Adam, but it is the 'desire to do evil' that pulls us away from God. So in this way, our 'spirit' is in constant battle with our 'flesh'. Every human born of man and woman has this. While Jesus had the first type of 'flesh', I do not believe he had the second type of 'flesh'. Why, because he wasn't born of Man and woman, he was born of God and woman. The 'curse' was not passed down to him, which was what made him pure and an acceptable sacrifice.

This is the exact reason that his temptation had to come from an external source. Now the temptations were the same type, which were the Lust of the eye, the Lust of the flesh, and the pride of Life.

1John 2:15-16 [sup]15[/sup] Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. [sup]16[/sup] For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

Temptations fall into these categories, and all of us suffer from them, but that doesn't mean that we all suffer from the exact same specific temptation. One person may be tempted to use drugs, another may be tempted to get drunk, another may be tempted to look at porn, while another my be tempted to run around on his wife. The drug addict may not have any desire to look at porn, so for him porn is not a temptation, but the drugs are. The adulterer may have a wondering eye but has no desire to get drunk. But just because we all suffer different specific temptations, all temptation are fall into one or more of those categories.

Jesus was also tempted by these three types of temptations, and in doing so he can empathize with our weaknesses. (heb 4:15) This is the reason that Holy Spirit led the Son of God out into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And if I believe that Satan tempted Jesus, then I believe that Satan can and does tempt men. That is not to say that I believe every temptation is from the devil, it's not, I am just saying that I believe it to be possible.

Have you spoken to a Devil recently? Actually known its a supernatural being provoking you to sin?

I have prayed that God would protect my family and my home, and told the devil that he and his angels are not welcome, that I bind them in the name of Jesus, and I tell them to leave. Does that count? But I have never sat down and had a discussion with him if that is what you mean. Of course, I haven't knowingly ever met an angel either, does that mean that because I have never met one, that they don't exist?

So if Jesus knew it was a Devil he would also know he doesn’t have the power to offer such a thing. But what had just happened? Jesus was given all power in heaven and earth by His Father. The only relevant temptation is "would he use it for personal gain" Bread, safety, Kingdom etc.

This doesn't make any sense. You would have Jesus talking to himself. Let's look at the scripture.

Matt 4:1-11 [sup]1[/sup] Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. [sup]2[/sup] After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. [sup]3[/sup] The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” [sup]4[/sup] Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ ”

[sup]5[/sup] Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. [sup]6[/sup] “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.”

[sup]7[/sup] Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”

[sup]8[/sup] Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. [sup]9[/sup] “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

[sup]10[/sup] Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ ”

[sup]11[/sup] Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.



You would have me believe that Jesus is arguing with himself? That quoted scripture to himself to tempt himself to sin then he answered himself by quoting more scripture? That he is asked himself to worship ... himself? Then rebuked himself and told himself to leave.. himself? And then He left himself?

Do I got that right? Can you understand why I have such a hard time understanding your interpretation when it comes to scriptures like these? Your personification explanation breaks down, so you have to end up saying that the scriptures isn't saying what it is saying. Don't you see that in holding so tightly to your interpretation, you commit the exact same thing that you accuse the others doing when you say they ... how did you put it... plaster 'devil' quotes all over the place and think that it means supernatural devils.

A case can be made that you are plastering 'personification' explanations all over and calling them 'sin-natures'. This is what I was talking about earlier. There are some cases where it can be made that the word Satan or Devil is used in an allegorical sense, or in a personification sense, but then there are some cases where the language used is so plain and clear, that to take the verse to mean anything other than a 'supernatural' being just doesn't make sense. In other words, if the scriptures were talking about the sin nature, I don't think this would have been the way to do it because it causes way too much confusion this way. And we know that God is not the author of confusion. If the scriptures were talking about a supernatural being talking with Jesus, then this is exactly how I was suspect the scriptures to deal with it. In plain common language.

Let me give you an example. Take verse 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. If the devil is just a personification of a 'sin nature', then you have Jesus having a sin nature, which I have a problem with. Not only that but there are three ways that I can see this verse being interpreted 1) You are having Jesus' sin nature transporting him to the city. or 2) Jesus wasn't transported to the city, which makes this verse a lie. Or 3) A supernatural being transported Jesus from the wilderness to the city. ( which I think is entirely possible.)


So which is it? Did his sin nature transport him, are the scriptures lying, or did a supernatural being transported him?

Joshua David