Will There Be A (Pre-Trib Rapture) As Many Claim?

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Truth7t7

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- it would make more sense if you quoted scripture, like "lest you enter into Hell, where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched" (admittedly that sounds like purgatory, but at least it is the Lord saying it, not people guessing what the scripture might be)
Purgatory is a false Roman Catholic doctrine found no place in scripture

Hell is the present place of torment for the unsaved wicked souls, that will be delivered up to the final judgement then cast into the Lake Of Fire
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Yes!!! those that become believers after the rapture must stand fast and endure until the end. Why do things the hard way??
So, you don't think you need to do that? It's only those who supposedly become believers after the rapture who will need to do that? You must be doing something wrong then.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Do you think these verses don't apply to you even though they indicate that they apply to all Christians?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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What do you mean "after death"? In Heaven you can be redeemed, that is, you and your works can be redeemed together (hence the scripture in Revelation, that our works will follow after us)
What did you mean exactly when you said "In Heaven you can be redeemed"? The time to be redeemed is during our lifetimes on earth, not in heaven.

I'm not sure avoiding doctrines is the right way to go about studying scripture - it would make more sense if you quoted scripture, like "lest you enter into Hell, where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched" (admittedly that sounds like purgatory, but at least it is the Lord saying it, not people guessing what the scripture might be)
You want him to quote scripture even though you didn't even quote scripture yourself to support your claim? Interesting.

You did reference a scripture in Revelation related to our works following us, but for some reason you didn't bother quoting it.

It seems that you must be referring to this:

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

All this is saying is that they will be able to "rest from their labours" because of "their works" that were done while they were alive. There is no reason to read anything more into it than that.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Those verses don't tell us that so and so persons shall endure the great tribulation, actually. No, no one, I imagine, is denying that Christians are persecuted and suffer affliction. Of course we do.
I'm trying to get you to see what scripture actually says about great tribulation and who has to endure it. What is "the great tribulation" exactly in your view?

The simple fact is that only those alive and on the earth at that time will endure the trials of that time.
At what time exactly?

Jesus affirmed that "he who endures to the end shall be saved", and I ask, from what? From what He was then prophesying, naturally!
Yes, of course. But, what you and many others don't understand is that He spoke of two different times of tribulation. One related to the destruction of the temple buildings that happened long ago around 70 AD which He described in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24. That tribulation had to do with God's wrath against the unbelieving Jews of that time. The other tribulation related to His coming at the end of the age and that relates to increased persecution against believers and an increase in wickedness and so on.

And He continued with His assurance that if He didn't cut it short, NO flesh would survive, but for the sake of His chosen, He had. And He assured them that He would return before the entire nation were destroyed.
Where are you getting that from? Where does it indicate that His return would be a local event centering around Jerusalem and the nation of Israel rather than being a global event? What does the following indicate about that:

Luke 21:25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

Can you see here that Jesus talked about a global event affecting "nations" on "the earth" that would affect "all those who live on the face of the whole earth"? That is different than what He had described just previous to that which was an event that would occur in and around Jerusalem that would result in those in Judea needing to flee to the mountains. Not people around the world needing to flee. Just those in Judea because it was an event that would occur in and around Jerusalem, unlike what is described in Luke 21:25-36. So, you are not recognizing that Jesus was asked two questions regarding two different events (one local and one global).

But again just to comment on your post, those passages pertain to the universal Christian experience, and do not indicate some particular person's involvement in a particular prophetic time. If that were so, we'd have to say all Christians would be in the Great Tribulation, something patently not true.
I was showing that all Christians have been part of great tribulation in a sense, even if it's not in the sense of the great tribulation that you're talking about. So, my point here is that it's baseless to think that Christians will ever need to be taken off of the earth in order to avoid great tribulation since Christians have been facing great tribulation for a long time already without having to be taken off of the earth to avoid it.

I think pretribs need to take the following verse to heart and ask themselves if their view makes sense in light of it:

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
 
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Gottservant

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Believers are "Redeemed" while on earth in physical bodies through faith in the precious blood of Calvary, waiting for a future redemption in heaven as you claim, is unscriptural, it's that simple
[...]
Doesn't the Bible talk about great figures of the faith, waiting for the Day of Jesus? Where were they? In limbo? Or in faith?

If they were in faith, why do you object where that faith was? If they were in limbo, wouldn't they be the same as everyone who has dwelt on the Earth at some time?

Wait for the Holy Spirit; I am not trying to corner you, you have a foundation that the redemption is important: build on that.
 

Gottservant

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[...]

You want him to quote scripture even though you didn't even quote scripture yourself to support your claim? Interesting.
I don't know why you are fighting me? I did quote scripture, as you later quoted yourself.

The fact is that until faith is revealed, everyone waits where they can. Does that mean that they are condemned? No!
 

Keraz

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I think pretribs need to take the following verse to heart and ask themselves if their view makes sense in light of it:

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
This verse blows any 'rapture to heaven' totally out of contention.
We must endure until the end, reiterated four times: Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:36, Revelation 13:10, 14:12
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I don't know why you are fighting me? I did quote scripture, as you later quoted yourself.
You didn't even bother indicating which chapter and verse you were referencing and you didn't quote the whole verse for context. Is that asking too much of you?

The fact is that until faith is revealed, everyone waits where they can. Does that mean that they are condemned? No!
I don't know what you are talking about. Have you never learned how to communicate? Are you just talking about where people go while they are waiting for the redemption of their bodies? Please explain exactly what you are talking about so that I don't have to guess.
 
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Gottservant

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You didn't even bother indicating which chapter and verse you were referencing and you didn't quote the whole verse for context. Is that asking too much of you?
I quoted from memory - what's wrong with that? Where in the Bible does it say "you must quote word for word"?
I don't know what you are talking about. Have you never learned how to communicate? Are you just talking about where people go while they are waiting for the redemption of their bodies? Please explain exactly what you are talking about so that I don't have to guess.
Communication, as if I type anything other than words? All I am saying is that people wait for the Message to be revealed. People waited for Jesus, they will wait for the Holy Spirit and so on and so forth. They are not condemned, they don't need to be somewhere else, they are not left out. As Jesus said "the Son of Man will gather His angels", we can only presume that He gathers us with them. If you don't want to be in Heaven, maybe you will be on Earth, maybe not, the point is that we do not need to stress where we will be, at the rapture or the tribulation. I find it funny that you think you can limit me, to a certain future - the Bible does not suggest that at all.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I quoted from memory - what's wrong with that? Where in the Bible does it say "you must quote word for word"?
It would be helpful for others to know exactly what verse you were quoting so they can look at it for themselves. Are you too lazy to look it up and quote the entire verse? It would have taken 5 seconds. When you actually look at the verse you can see that it doesn't say what you were claiming, so is that the reason you didn't quote the whole verse?

Communication, as if I type anything other than words?
I was talking about you learning how to communicate clearly. You seem to just speak in riddles and people can only guess as to what you might be intending to say.

All I am saying is that people wait for the Message to be revealed. People waited for Jesus, they will wait for the Holy Spirit and so on and so forth. They are not condemned, they don't need to be somewhere else, they are not left out. As Jesus said "the Son of Man will gather His angels", we can only presume that He gathers us with them. If you don't want to be in Heaven, maybe you will be on Earth, maybe not,
If I don't want to be in heaven? Are you for real?

the point is that we do not need to stress where we will be, at the rapture or the tribulation. I find it funny that you think you can limit me, to a certain future - the Bible does not suggest that at all.
I have no idea of what you're talking about.
 
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Gottservant

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It would be helpful for others to know exactly what verse you were quoting so they can look at it for themselves. Are you too lazy to look it up and quote the entire verse? It would have taken 5 seconds. When you actually look at the verse you can see that it doesn't say what you were claiming, so is that the reason you didn't quote the whole verse?
I write to people, on the assumption they have read the Bible and are at least partially familiar with it. I am happy to look up a verse (as I do often) if I think the exact order of the words has some significance. The quote of Revelation, was simply what I said "their works will follow after them", that establishes that redemption pertains to where we wait for that redemption, because works can be of Heaven or Earth.
I was talking about you learning how to communicate clearly. You seem to just speak in riddles and people can only guess as to what you might be intending to say.
I suffer from "dysintellexia", I have a habit of sounding verbose, when I don't know exactly what to say.

If I don't want to be in heaven? Are you for real?
You might want to be in Heaven on Earth, for example.
I have no idea of what you're talking about.
Maybe you are not intentionally trying to corner me, but when I say "I can be redeemed, wherever I wait for redemption" you seem to think I am misreading scripture? Like God says "you have to be at x, to be redeemed"?
 

Truth7t7

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I write to people, on the assumption they have read the Bible and are at least partially familiar with it. I am happy to look up a verse (as I do often) if I think the exact order of the words has some significance. The quote of Revelation, was simply what I said "their works will follow after them", that establishes that redemption pertains to where we wait for that redemption, because works can be of Heaven or Earth.

I suffer from "dysintellexia", I have a habit of sounding verbose, when I don't know exactly what to say.


You might want to be in Heaven on Earth, for example.

Maybe you are not intentionally trying to corner me, but when I say "I can be redeemed, wherever I wait for redemption" you seem to think I am misreading scripture? Like God says "you have to be at x, to be redeemed"?
I Stand With Spiritual Israelite

Your complete presentation is hanging out in the wind, no scripture posted, with your hopes somebody understands what your intent is

Make a claim and quote scripture, simple
 

Gottservant

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I Stand With Spiritual Israelite

Your complete presentation is hanging out in the wind, no scripture posted, with your hopes somebody understands what your intent is

Make a claim and quote scripture, simple
The presence of works, that are there no matter where we die: indicates that Redemption is not context sensitive.

Where does it say that I have to quote the Bible, in the Bible? (again, as I said, I often do, but here I don't think it's warranted)

Which would you rather, a simple statement with a general reference, or page after page of quotes and no understanding?

As I said, I have dysintellexia - I don't think I have to apologize for that; if you feel the need, please pray.
 

Timtofly

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What did you mean exactly when you said "In Heaven you can be redeemed"? The time to be redeemed is during our lifetimes on earth, not in heaven.


You want him to quote scripture even though you didn't even quote scripture yourself to support your claim? Interesting.

You did reference a scripture in Revelation related to our works following us, but for some reason you didn't bother quoting it.

It seems that you must be referring to this:

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

All this is saying is that they will be able to "rest from their labours" because of "their works" that were done while they were alive. There is no reason to read anything more into it than that.
You should not even read "into it", they are even in heaven. These people remain on earth for "all eternity". Heaven, the New Jerusalem literally comes to earth. No one after the Second Coming ever goes to heaven. The New Jerusalem comes to earth, the exact opposite of going to heaven.

Even Amil cannot even get their own eschatology straight. If there is no future millennium, then all come to earth at the Second Coming, even the New Jerusalem comes to earth at that point in the Amil perspective. All who die on the earth after the Second Coming stay on the earth even in death, no. Or sent to the LOF. No one goes to heaven, as even the New Jerusalem is already on the earth.

Here is one of those questions pointing out amil absurdity. If a soul dies on earth, do they then enter the New Jerusalem?

Obviously no, because even dying in Revelation 14:23 cannot make sense if one is post trib and Amil. This verse can only apply pre-trib and pre-mill. They are still blessed and live on the earth in the Millennium.

And if it is post trib, no one dies in the NHNE, do they? So how can this even work, those who die in the Lord, henceforth, if there is no more death, period? This is only true up until the last enemy, death is defeated. And only true between the Second Coming and the Millennium. That period of tribulation you deny can happen between the Second Coming and a point after the Second Coming. As your amil perspective demands the NHNE begins the same instant as the Second Coming.

Notice those beheaded die after this point in Revelation 14:13. They are beheaded in Satan's 42 months of AoD. They are still in the Lord as their names are still in the Lamb's book of life. They don't go to heaven or Paradise. They are forever on the earth after that point, and even in resurrection remain on the earth. The only other place to go is the LOF.
 

Timtofly

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I think pretribs need to take the following verse to heart and ask themselves if their view makes sense in light of it:

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
That prayer was in view of Jesus about to be crucified, and ascend into heaven to leave them on the earth.

That does not apply to the church being taken off the earth prior to Jacob's trouble.

Jesus as a human would have been glad to remove all of Jacob from the earth at that point. They were His kinsmen in the flesh. The Gentiles would have still been included.

Still we see that Jacob cannot be taken off the earth even if the church will be at the Second Coming. Do you not see that Jacob will always be confined to the earth?
 

Timtofly

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This verse blows any 'rapture to heaven' totally out of contention.
We must endure until the end, reiterated four times: Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:36, Revelation 13:10, 14:12
The end of what? Our life? Or were those first century believers to endure 1990 years of tribulation? Pretty sure none of them are still enduring on earth. Does that mean they all failed?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You should not even read "into it", they are even in heaven. These people remain on earth for "all eternity".
What people are you talking about?

Heaven, the New Jerusalem literally comes to earth. No one after the Second Coming ever goes to heaven. The New Jerusalem comes to earth, the exact opposite of going to heaven.
I never said that anyone goes to heaven after the second coming, so why are you telling me this?

Even Amil cannot even get their own eschatology straight.
What is this comment based on? Are you just randomly generating comments in this post or what?

If there is no future millennium, then all come to earth at the Second Coming, even the New Jerusalem comes to earth at that point in the Amil perspective. All who die on the earth after the Second Coming stay on the earth even in death, no. Or sent to the LOF. No one goes to heaven, as even the New Jerusalem is already on the earth.
Do you not know what Amils believe by now? Why would you say that we can't get our own eschatology straight when you can't even understand anyone else's eschatology but your own?

Here is one of those questions pointing out amil absurdity. If a soul dies on earth, do they then enter the New Jerusalem?
The souls of the dead in Christ go to heaven. The new Jerusalem is symbolic for the church because there is no other entity in scripture that would be described as "the bride, the wife of the Lamb" (Rev 21:9) besides the church.

Obviously no, because even dying in Revelation 14:23 cannot make sense if one is post trib and Amil. This verse can only apply pre-trib and pre-mill. They are still blessed and live on the earth in the Millennium.
How are you coming to this conclusion? Do you think it's enough to just make claims like this without offering any explanation for how you're coming to this conclusion? If so, think again.

And if it is post trib, no one dies in the NHNE, do they? So how can this even work, those who die in the Lord, henceforth, if there is no more death, period?
What in the world are you talking about? That isn't talking about a time period after the ushering in of the NHNE. Are you just making things up at this point?

This is only true up until the last enemy, death is defeated. And only true between the Second Coming and the Millennium. That period of tribulation you deny can happen between the Second Coming and a point after the Second Coming. As your amil perspective demands the NHNE begins the same instant as the Second Coming.

Notice those beheaded die after this point in Revelation 14:13. They are beheaded in Satan's 42 months of AoD. They are still in the Lord as their names are still in the Lamb's book of life. They don't go to heaven or Paradise. They are forever on the earth after that point, and even in resurrection remain on the earth. The only other place to go is the LOF.
You make no sense.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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That prayer was in view of Jesus about to be crucified, and ascend into heaven to leave them on the earth.

That does not apply to the church being taken off the earth prior to Jacob's trouble.

Jesus as a human would have been glad to remove all of Jacob from the earth at that point. They were His kinsmen in the flesh. The Gentiles would have still been included.

Still we see that Jacob cannot be taken off the earth even if the church will be at the Second Coming. Do you not see that Jacob will always be confined to the earth?
Clearly, Jesus believed that His followers could be protected while on the earth without needing to be taken off of the earth. That still applies today and will apply right up until right before the final wrath when the heavens and the earth are burned up.
 

Timtofly

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The souls of the dead in Christ go to heaven. The new Jerusalem is symbolic for the church because there is no other entity in scripture that would be described as "the bride, the wife of the Lamb" (Rev 21:9) besides the church.
The New Jerusalem is a geographical location where we live, not a symbolic term for billions of souls.

Do you think billions of souls is literally one female looking entity going to marry Jesus?

You are claiming a literal city is symbolic of a symbolic term "bride". If the New Jerusalem is symbolic, then billions of souls looks like a city when standing on each other?

The church is symbolic of a bride, not a literal bride. The New Jerusalem is a literal city where the church lives. The church is a symbolic term for billions of physical humans with physical bodies.

I am not looking for other entities. I accept the New Jerusalem is the location, sons of God can be found enjoying creation, just like we have cities on the earth today.