Women Pastors / Teachers
- Thread starter Big Boy Johnson
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But, apparently the "jesus" he follows... is incapable of providing an accurate copy of what God has said to mankind in written form.
If one believes some parts of the bible are not true, then they have no basis to believe any of the bible is true and as such really has NO basis for salvation since our faith is based upon what God said in His written word.
All this is nothing more than a convenient way to claim the scriptures we don't agree with or don't like are not true and we can throw them out. This practice is commonly known as Cherry Picking.
DuckieLady
Well-Known Member
To be fair that was usually seen as a rebuke.
I'm not debating. I'm just going to sit here quietly, shut up and drink my coffee, while I read about you guys arguing about me.
He was saying Deborah... not Duckie Lady
So, are you like in to duck hunting or something?
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Did God or Jesus say women couldn't preach? I'm not debating. I'm just going to sit here quietly, shut up, and pull for the Chiefs to beat the Ravens. I assume you are watching the game, also.
Bob here rejects passages in God's Word he doesn't agree with... so what Jesus told the Apostles to write in God's Word is out for brutha Bob
DuckieLady
Well-Known Member
Not cool enough to even know what they are running around for. Lol
I leave the preaching to Mr. Duck, who would also say that women cannot preach. Maybe traditions in the church are okay. IDK
Well since I can't say anything LOL maybe Mr. Duck will maybe, possibly @SERVANTedu
SERVANTedu
Active Member
1 Tim 3, titus 1:6.
A lot of egalitarians would tell you that the passage "I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man" 1 tim 2:12 had more to do with pagan practices in Ephesus and how paul was attempting to differentiate the Christian church from those practices. However, if you look at the qualifications for a overseer you find a woman couldn't meet them.
I have no issues with women holding the position of a deacon.
A lot of egalitarians would tell you that the passage "I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man" 1 tim 2:12 had more to do with pagan practices in Ephesus and how paul was attempting to differentiate the Christian church from those practices. However, if you look at the qualifications for a overseer you find a woman couldn't meet them.
I have no issues with women holding the position of a deacon.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, I've learned a few things about faith, obedience, and the love of God from women pastors and teachers. Maybe I should stop listening.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
I've not read the contents of this entire post, but has anyone made comment on the "elect lady" that John was commending in 2 John? She and her "elect sister" both had "children" who were walking in truth, and who were also commended by John for their faithfulness in following the commandments of God. These "children" were not their biological children, but were the members of the church assemblies meeting in their homes. Just as John addressed the saints he was teaching as "my little children..." as a term of endearment, so these women also had "children" which they were responsible for.
John was giving this "elect lady" instructions on just who to admit to the fellowship in the church in 2 John 10. The only "authority" that should be emphasized as a minister is the authority of the scriptures, which are to be equally accessible for one and all regardless of gender, age, or ethnicity. Under the New Covenant, God poured out His spirit on ALL flesh in those days, on handmaidens also, who were to prophesy. The very stated purpose of prophesying is to speak unto men. "The one however prophesying to men speaks for edification and encouragement and consolation" (1 Cor. 14:3). Paul gave instructions for the manner in which prophesying could be done by one and all in the assemblies - women included.
Those who are so caught up in "who's the boss" in the church are totally forgetting Christ's injunction to His disciples when He said, "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." (Matthew 20:25-27).
John was giving this "elect lady" instructions on just who to admit to the fellowship in the church in 2 John 10. The only "authority" that should be emphasized as a minister is the authority of the scriptures, which are to be equally accessible for one and all regardless of gender, age, or ethnicity. Under the New Covenant, God poured out His spirit on ALL flesh in those days, on handmaidens also, who were to prophesy. The very stated purpose of prophesying is to speak unto men. "The one however prophesying to men speaks for edification and encouragement and consolation" (1 Cor. 14:3). Paul gave instructions for the manner in which prophesying could be done by one and all in the assemblies - women included.
Those who are so caught up in "who's the boss" in the church are totally forgetting Christ's injunction to His disciples when He said, "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." (Matthew 20:25-27).
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
God doesn't qualify mankind by what is between their legs.
Have you forgotten Genesis 1:27, 'So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
What's this nonsense about woman pastors having authority over men anyway? In my denomination's polity, the pastor doesn't have authority over ANYONE. The only thing the pastor has authority over is what happens between 11:00 and 12:00 on Sunday morning.
Actually, it's not a church tradition... it's what the Lord says in His Word.
The Lord specifically teaches in His Word that... this would be men, not women
Prophesying is for edification... and does not mean the woman is a pastor, teachers, or church leader.
And, anyone who is prophesying is subject to their message being judged by the elders and compared to God's Word to see if it's a message from the Lord or not.
satan too enjoys prophesying in churches for the purpose of bringing forth deception and confusion so just because somebody is prophesying to others does not automatically mean it's of the Lord. In these latter days we live in now, a large portion of the prophesying that's going on is coming from devils.. so hearer beware!
1 Corinthians 11:8,9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1 Timothy 2:8-15
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Concerning 1 Timothy 2:8-15
Paul gave two reasons, both of them are theological not cultural.
1. The created order: Adam was first created as an independent person, then Eve was created from his rib to be his helper. She was therefore not created to be independent of the man in authority.
2. Eve, and consequently all women, were placed under a penalty of the curse. This included pain in childbearing and that her husband would rule over her.
Paul's reasoning above is that all Christian women must submit to both of these things, at least during this age while the curse is still in effect. Yes, there are lots of women who know much more than their husbands about biblical teaching. However, if she transgresses THIS teaching, by teaching publicly in the assembly, then she is TEACHING false doctrine regardless of the content of her 'message.' This is because "teaching" is not only oral. There is a kind of 'teaching' that is by example, which is what she is supposed to be doing instead of teaching orally. She might be making great theological points with her words.
But there is one glaring point that she is making that completely undermines everything that is coming out of her mouth -- by her actions she is transgressing the biblical teaching regarding the role of Christian women by her public display of blatant insubordination to the commandments of Scripture. Notice in the above passage that these instructions immediately follow specific instructions on how Christian women are to dress and adorn themselves.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Well, that would be the "presbyteros" men elders and the "presbyteras" women elders which Paul wrote about. But really, all in the assembly are required to be exercising judgment on what they hear spoken concerning scripture - not just the elders.
Christ designed the church to be reflective of a family. A family ideally is supposed to be led by a husband and wife team working in conjunction to raise their children in a godly manner in order for them to leave and establish homes of their own.
I find that the typical setup of a church structure is more reflective of a same-sex marriage between men - something which God considers abominable. When both genders are not represented in leading the church family, there is imbalance. There is a reason why the church over history has more resembled a battlefield than a family, because women and their tempering influence have been typically excluded for centuries. The result is more of a male-monopolized, heavy-handed corporate business institution - hardly what Christ had designed for the assemblies to be.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
You misread God's statement. God was not dictating a command for the husband to rule over the wife. He was warning the original couple of the sad results which their fall into sin was going to bring upon themselves. The unfortunate result was that men would end up dominating women, and that women in fear would defer to what men thought instead of turning to God as their leader.
I find it very inconsistent that the statement "in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread" is not also considered a directive. Why do people "sinfully" use air conditioners to get rid of this result of the Fall, if this statement by God is included along with the comments about women and men? Also, since as a result of the Fall we as made of dust "return unto the earth", if this was God's desired directive, why should anyone go to a doctor to try to forestall that eventual death? This statement is lumped together with that about women being ruled over.
We are to fight against all the unfortunate results of the Fall, and try to better these conditions as much as possible. God has worked a plan of redemption for all of these unfortunate results, with the aim of eventually getting rid of all of these effects of sin on humankind. The church should be a shining example of those redemptive actions being played out, but unfortunately, it has fallen far short.
Actually the Lord does tell us thru His Apostle and in Genesis 2:18... that woman was made for the man, not man for the woman.
1 Corinthians 11:8,9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Genesis 2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
AND, the scripture teaches specifically that the man is in authority over the wife... in the same way the Lord is over the Body of Christ... so you should start accepting the whole counsel of God.
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Savior of the body.
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
He specifically said in His Word that pastors, teachers, deacons (church leaders) are in fact men.
Woman cannot hold positions of authority in the Body of Christ according to God's Word.
Women can witness in public since this nobody needs to be pastors, teachers, deacons (church leaders) to do so.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Many years ago, I lived for 16 years under a cult-like church environment where there was an overwhelming and continual emphasis on the supreme authority of the single man in the pulpit, and the squelching of women, wives, and daughters into a totally inferior category. It was a poisonous environment. Upon looking back, I see now where the scriptures were twisted out of their proper intent. Your overriding emphasis on the power of the role of a minister, deacon, or elder is very similar. It also goes directly against Christ's instruction to His disciples NOT to be obsessed with authority like the Gentiles were.
The scripture passages where leaders are instructed to be the "husband of one wife" were necessary for the times of polygamous marriages. Men had multiple wives, but women having multiple husbands was not a problem, and so did not need to be mentioned as a requirement for those women leading church assemblies in their home (such as the "elect lady" in 2 John). This instruction for men leaders to only have one wife hardly turns into a requirement for men only to serve in the role of an elder, especially when Paul mentions the existence of both male and female elders.
When Paul called women "fellow-laborers" in Philippians 4:3, he also instructed those to whom he was writing in 2 Cor. 16:16 to submit to those of his fellow-laborers who were laboring in the ministry to the saints. "That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth". That meant submission to women elders as well who were laboring in the ministry to the saints.
Well, lots of folks like to ignore scriptures they don't like which makes them disobedient to the Lord's ways.
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
The down side is once someone has been shown what the scriptures say... they are without further excuse before the Lord and they are now responsible for the truth of God's Word they have been exposed to.
Women's insistence in being in authority over men in ministry is in fact disobedience to the Lord.
Disobedience to the Lord provides a wide open door to the devil to bring forth false doctrine. Enjoy!
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