Women Pastors / Teachers

[quietthinker]

Actually, it's not a church tradition... it's what the Lord says in His Word.




The Lord specifically teaches in His Word that... this would be men, not women




Prophesying is for edification... and does not mean the woman is a pastor, teachers, or church leader.

And, anyone who is prophesying is subject to their message being judged by the elders and compared to God's Word to see if it's a message from the Lord or not.

satan too enjoys prophesying in churches for the purpose of bringing forth deception and confusion so just because somebody is prophesying to others does not automatically mean it's of the Lord. In these latter days we live in now, a large portion of the prophesying that's going on is coming from devils.. so hearer beware!




1 Corinthians 11:8,9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Timothy 2:8-15
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Concerning 1 Timothy 2:8-15
Paul gave two reasons, both of them are theological not cultural.

1. The created order: Adam was first created as an independent person, then Eve was created from his rib to be his helper. She was therefore not created to be independent of the man in authority.

2. Eve, and consequently all women, were placed under a penalty of the curse. This included pain in childbearing and that her husband would rule over her.

Paul's reasoning above is that all Christian women must submit to both of these things, at least during this age while the curse is still in effect. Yes, there are lots of women who know much more than their husbands about biblical teaching. However, if she transgresses THIS teaching, by teaching publicly in the assembly, then she is TEACHING false doctrine regardless of the content of her 'message.' This is because "teaching" is not only oral. There is a kind of 'teaching' that is by example, which is what she is supposed to be doing instead of teaching orally. She might be making great theological points with her words.

But there is one glaring point that she is making that completely undermines everything that is coming out of her mouth -- by her actions she is transgressing the biblical teaching regarding the role of Christian women by her public display of blatant insubordination to the commandments of Scripture. Notice in the above passage that these instructions immediately follow specific instructions on how Christian women are to dress and adorn themselves.

I think you are attempting to use scripture to bolster Patriarchy as opposed to equality and with it the unspoken right to see women as second class citizens including the disadvantages this comes with....although you would probably not admit it even if it was within your range of awareness.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Women's insistence in being in authority over men in ministry is in fact disobedience to the Lord.

As I have already said - the only "authority" we have over us in the assembly is Christ, who is "the head over ALL THINGS to the church". Male elders do not have this authority over others in the assembly, and neither do women serving as elders. Nobody gets to upset Christ's role as the ONLY head of the body of Christ. Anytime you see a person attempting to gain a foothold of authority over other brethren and pushing it as God's design, these are only acting as "lords over God's heritage", which Paul spoke against in no uncertain terms.

 

[DuckieLady]

Did God or Jesus ever say women can't preach?

I think God just wanted us to listen to who he appointed. They walked with Christ and continued to live in Christ.

If we want to know more about their expectations other than what's written, then we could how they lived and how the church had their order.

So we could look at historical texts
And that could be fun

the only "authority" we have over us in the assembly is Christ, who is "the head over ALL THINGS to the church".

1 Cor 11:2-3

I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

 

[Bob Estey]

I think God just wanted us to listen to who he appointed. They walked with Christ and continued to live in Christ.

If we want to know more about their expectations other than what's written, then we could how they lived and how the church had their order.

So we could look at historical texts
And that could be fun

1 Cor 11:2-3

I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

Those were Paul's words. I don't remember God or Jesus saying anything like that.

 

[3 Resurrections]

1 Cor 11:2-3

I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

It sounds as if you are trying to use this text as it is typically used - in a sense of an overbearing "authentein" over womankind in general. Paul is here in 1 Cor. 11:2-3 referring to the ORIGIN of things.

The "head of every man is Christ" is meant in the sense that Christ was the creative source of all things, as in Hebrews 1:2. "...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." And in Colossians 1:16, concerning Christ the "image of the invisible God", Paul said, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY, THE CHURCH, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Christ became the "chief cornerstone", upon which we as "living stones" are being built up into a holy temple in the Lord. There would be no church if Christ had not originated it and became its source.

When Paul said that "the head of the woman is man", he was speaking of Adam being the origin of the body of the woman which was made from a rib as Adam's own flesh and bone. This did not give Adam superiority over a woman's status before God, since they were both given equal dominion over the planet and its creatures by God in Genesis 1:28, and both told to subdue it.

When Paul wrote that "the head of Christ is God", he was speaking in the same sense that Christ spoke in John 16:27-28 of where Christ had come from. "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that "I CAME OUT FROM GOD. I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world..." The incarnate body of Christ by which the Word was made flesh originated from God.

Paul also wrote in 1 Cor. 11:12 that in the same way that womankind originated from man (because Eve was made of Adam's flesh and bone), in the same way the man also was of the woman, but all things were from God. It took God bypassing the seed of Adam, the man, (whose disobedience brought representative death upon all mankind) to bring about the salvation of all mankind by the "Seed of the woman", who did not carry the representation of death that Adam as a male did. By the means of Christ being the "Seed of the woman", salvation was made possible for all the elect. Aside from the fact that every male who come into this world does so by coming out of the body of a woman.

But all things of God, who gets the praise for the origin of all things to begin with.

 

[DuckieLady]

I do not really see the issue. Doesn't the Bible talk about humility?

Is a woman who works in daycare at a church, a treasury, Sunday school teacher, or holds women's studies, any less loved or not considered valuable by God because she's not preaching?

Is order in the church a disgrace? Is what Paul said evil, because our modern day view no longer sits right with us?

Did Jesus say he was less because he was the son and not the father?

Jesus' love protecting the adulterous woman from being stoned was FAR beyond his time. That's one of those feminist things you can see happening in the Bible. Anything he was teaching, I'm sure, was not evil.

 

[Lambano]

A godly woman I once knew (she's gone on to be with the Lord) was called to be pastor long before it was common. She testified that she tried to get out of the calling because "that just wasn't done in those days", but like Jonah ... God just wouldn't let her get out of it. She finally had to let God have His way, no matter how Paul may have done it back in the first century.

Which reminds me of Gamaliel's advice:

38 "Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” (Acts 5:38-39)

 

[3 Resurrections]

I do not really see the issue. Doesn't the Bible talk about humility?

It does indeed, from first to last. And the role of minister of an assembly has gotten so out of touch with that intended purpose of humility that the role has become virtually unrecognizable from when Christ originated it. Even the furnishings of the typical church artificially elevate the role beyond what was intended. The pulpit as a piece of church furnishings should be trashed. Likewise the pews. We need something that more resembles a coffee table with the scriptures on it, and chairs surrounding it.

I do not blame men for not wanting a woman to fulfill what has become a type of "lordship" in a "pulpit" role. No one should be in a pulpit lording it over the Lord's heritage - man or woman.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I think you are attempting to use scripture to bolster Patriarchy as opposed to equality and with it the unspoken right to see women as second class citizens including the disadvantages this comes with....although you would probably not admit it even if it was within your range of awareness.

That's what the devil keep telling everyone that gets their doctrine from God's Word rather than from the wisdom of this world following the blind mind of mankind.

Those were Paul's words. I don't remember God or Jesus saying anything like that.

And those that reject the Word of God coming thru His Apostles... are easily deceived.

Jesus never said smoking crack is a sin... but we do see that thru His Apostles that intoxication is in fact a sin...

Is a woman who works in daycare at a church, a treasury, Sunday school teacher, or holds women's studies, any less loved or not considered valuable by God because she's not preaching?

Exactly, nobody is saying women are not valuable or advocating for women being abused.

God has never and will never anoint a woman to be in authority over a congregation and this is not an abuse of women at all. He decided that men are to be leaders.

Notice in the situation with Adam and Eve... she was deceived, Adam was not. Eve at least had an excuse, but Adam knew he was doing wrong and decided to do wrong anyway.

Adam committed the greater sin because he was the one in authority, he was the leader and he is the one that failed.

Which reminds me of Gamaliel's advice:

Which is in opposition to what the Lord has said in His Word on this topic.

 

[Logikos]

The only thing worse that a woman leading a congregation as its pastor is a girly man leading a congregation as its pastor.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Notice in the situation with Adam and Eve... she was deceived, Adam was not. Eve at least had an excuse, but Adam knew he was doing wrong and decided to do wrong anyway.

Adam committed the greater sin because he was the one in authority, he was the leader and he is the one that failed.

Both sins of ignorance and willful disobedience required a sacrifice under the OT Mosaic laws. Neither was commended. And it is certainly not preferable for a congregation to be solely under the direction of a male leader who tends to knowingly disobey God rather than to ignorantly err in judgment.

Scripture mentions and also commends women as ministers of an assembly in 2 John. Under the New Covenant, "there is neither bond nor free, Jew nor Greek, male nor female". God intended a blend of men and women to be ministering jointly in the same role as teachers of an assembly, just as in a family. To have only one gender ministering to the congregation leads to imbalance in all sorts of areas, just as in a one-parent family which is not the ideal for raising children.

 

[DuckieLady]

We need something that more resembles a coffee table with the scriptures on it, and chairs surrounding it.

I actually went to a church like this.

We all sat on couches facing one another and they had open mic. It was a Christian coffee shop church.

Nice people

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The only thing worse that a woman leading a congregation as its pastor is a girly man leading a congregation as its pastor.

This is do to the feminization of men... that comes with women being in authority over men.

It's all part of satan's plan.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is do to the feminization of men... that comes with women being in authority over men.

Humanity over time tends to boomerang from one extreme to another, and never can quite seem to arrive at the balance God intended. This is the effect of the Fall. God did not intend any kind of "authentein" leadership to operate in His church body - whether that was men or women acting in that overbearing fashion.

 

[Bob Estey]

And those that reject the Word of God coming thru His Apostles... are easily deceived.

Jesus never said smoking crack is a sin... but we do see that thru His Apostles that intoxication is in fact a sin...

The Word of God, I believe, are those times God and Jesus are quoted in the Bible.

 

[quietthinker]

That's what the devil keep telling everyone that gets their doctrine from God's Word rather than from the wisdom of this world following the blind mind of mankind.

ah yes, blaming the devil for this that and the other; when will Men take responsibility for their stuff?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

ah yes, blaming the devil for this that and the other; when will Men take responsibility for their stuff?

That's what the Lord would like to know about you!

You're the one denying what the Word of the Lord says concerning this issue.

 

[Lambano]

Which is in opposition to what the Lord has said in His Word on this topic

Of course, I was QUOTING God's word.

 

[Logikos]

This is do to the feminization of men... that comes with women being in authority over men.

It's all part of satan's plan.

That's backward. Women being in authority over men isn't the cause, its the effect, which was my admittedly veiled point. You won't fix the issue of having women in places of leadership in the church unless and until you start raising men to be men.

Also, it is of next to no profit in blaming Satan. Human beings are plenty evil enough by themselves and the church is so feckless and timid that Satan need not bother.

 

[grumix8]

satan's plan is women to lead then when Deborah was leadin it was satan guiding ? God was telling Deborah to lead ? You have many errors john and logikos says that's backwards.