Working out your salvation

[meshak]

Consider 2 Peter 3:16

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Jesus' teachings are not hard to understand, Paul's is and you guys are taking advantage of it and twisting it.

Why do you quote Paul when Jesus explains simply about how to be His followers?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Jesus' teachings are not hard to understand, Paul's is and you guys are taking advantage of it and twisting it.

Why do you quote Paul when Jesus explains simply about how to be His followers?

Jesus' teachings are not hard to understand, Paul's is and you guys are taking advantage of it and twisting it.

Why do you quote Paul when Jesus explains simply about how to be His followers?

Jesus' teachings are not hard to understand, Paul's is and you guys are taking advantage of it and twisting it.

Why do you quote Paul when Jesus explains simply about how to be His followers?

Jesus' teachings are not hard to understand, Paul's is and you guys are taking advantage of it and twisting it.

Why do you quote Paul when Jesus explains simply about how to be His followers?

i agree we are called to be faithful to the end.

But now measure faithfulness for me?


I concur whole heartily that we must be those who have the witness of Jesus and keep his commandments.

Now define keep in the context of faithfulness?

 

[meshak]

i agree we are called to be faithful to the end.

But now measure faithfulness for me?


I concur whole heartily that we must be those who have the witness of Jesus and keep his commandments.

Now define keep in the context of faithfulness?

Just obey everything that Jesus commands without any excuse. He teaches how to do it mostly in the sermon on the mount.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Just obey everything that Jesus commands without any excuse. He teaches how to do it mostly in the sermon on the mount.

Have you done this perfectly(from the heart), without slip up or deliberately rebelling? Given what I just asked do you believe you're faithful?

 

[williemac]

Just obey everything that Jesus commands without any excuse. He teaches how to do it mostly in the sermon on the mount.

Jesus also said other things. How about John 3:16? How about John 6:47? How about John 6:50,51? These seem to contradict His own words on the mount....or do they? Are there not two covenants? Was Jesus not teaching law and prophesying grace? Did He not teach one thing while foretelling of another?

Don't you know the purpose of the law? It was given to take away one's confidence in the flesh, not to make one try harder. It was given to convict us of our sin, not tell us to do a better job of trying to justify ourselves. (Gal.3)
Be all that as it may, Jesus also said that the real key to life is to avoid coming under judgment at all. This can be found in John 5:24. So, if you insist on God judging you by your works, then knock yourself out. As for me, I will follow the words of Jesus as laid out in that passage, and as He promised...shall not come into judgment but rather pass from death to life.... Blessings, Howie

My reasoning is contextual.

No, it is not contextual. Read the last verse in Heb.10...." but we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul" . Willful sin in that context is sinning while in unbelief or rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus. The rest of the context has gone to great lengths to reveal that His sacrifice was superior to the blood of bulls and goats. How is it that a better sacrifice cannot even do what the former ones accomplished? Give your head a shake, my friend.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Thank you for jumping into this one. Maybe Ruth will have a different thing to say.

Since the only place where the term "sin willfully" (willful sin) is found, is in Heb.10, I will ask you to explain how you arrived at this description or definition of willful sin. Did you make it up? Did someone else tell you? Are you simply using your logic?

I'm coming to Rach's defense here. All of our sins are willful sins because they involve our will. What the writer of Hebrews was saying is that if we willfully walk away from the truth and deny Christ, there is nothing that can save us; there is no sacrifice for our sins because his sacrifice is the only way. The writer was exhorting the Hebrew believers to maintain faith in that sacrifice and not fall back to the old economy of trusting in animal sacrifices through which there is no salvation, but only 'a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries'.

 

[meshak]

Have you done this perfectly(from the heart), without slip up or deliberately rebelling? Given what I just asked do you believe you're faithful?

We are talking about willful sins. slipping out is not willful. We must learn what is sin or not. there are tons of willful sins permitted or condoned by the churches. It is organizational sins which is obvious ones I am talking about.

Willful sin is a grave sin.

I'm coming to Rach's defense here. All of our sins are willful sins because they involve our will.

We dont know ones private walk with Jesus. But we can see willful sins that is being witnessed by the world or anyone around us.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Willful sin is a grave sin.

All sin is grave sin because it separates us from life. Are you saying, or implying, that if a person willfully sins, no more sacrifice remains for them (as some people appear to interpret Hebrews 10:26)?

 

[meshak]

Jesus also said other things. How about John 3:16?

You mentioned a lot I can point out but I would like to focus one by one.

blessings.

All sin is grave sin because it separates us from life. Are you saying, or implying, that if a person willfully sins, no more sacrifice remains for them (as some people appear to interpret Hebrews 10:26)?

I can point out what is being offended by trinity churches but I dont know individual's sins.

Lets talk about obvious ones, shall we?

 

[Axehead]

All sin is grave sin because it separates us from life. Are you saying, or implying, that if a person willfully sins, no more sacrifice remains for them (as some people appear to interpret Hebrews 10:26)?

But everyone has willfully sinned after being born-again. Willful sin is knowingly sowing to the flesh when you know the Spirit is leading you another way. Knowing what the Spirit is telling you, yet willfully going your own way.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

But everyone has willfully sinned after being born-again. Willful sin is knowingly sowing to the flesh when you know the Spirit is leading you another way. Knowing what the Spirit is telling you, yet willfully going your own way.

But no one's answering the question I put forth. If someone commits a willful sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, is there no more sacrifice for their sins?

 

[Ruth]

This is not hard, why do some here want to ignore the FACT Christ said to keep your robes white, and to keep your lamps full.

This is not a one time thing, we must constantly be in submission to the Spirit, for when we submit to the flesh, our sinful desires, we dirty our garments, and we lose our oil.

The Holy Spirit will then convict us, discipline us, bring us to repentance. Please read the scriptures I gave above.

The covenant with Christ is a two way commitment, just like all the other covenants were.

A person whom is Christian, and has chosen sin over God, and never repents, His heart becomes hardened and He no longer hears the warnings of the Spirit, this Christian has left God, for another god.

Hebrews 6 speaks of the unpardonable sin, that is blasmying the Holy Spirit, denying God, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as claiming speaking in tounges demonic.

 

[daq]

But no one's answering the question I put forth. If someone commits a willful sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, is there no more sacrifice for their sins?

You want an answer according to the Scripture? No, there is not another perfect sacrifice to be had. That is what true grace is really all about and why we are NOT to abuse that precious Blood of the Lamb which is the Spirit of Grace; to do so is to trample what is holy and sacred. When Yeshua said "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee" (John 5:14 KJV) he meant it. :)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You want an answer according to the Scripture? No, there is not another perfect sacrifice to be had. That is what true grace is really all about and why we are NOT to abuse that precious Blood of the Lamb which is the Spirit of Grace; to do so is to trample what is holy and sacred. When Yeshua said "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee" (John 5:14 KJV) he meant it. :)

Are you willing to admit that you have not committed a willful sin since you have been saved?

Hebrews 6 speaks of the unpardonable sin, that is blasmying the Holy Spirit, denying God, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as claiming speaking in tounges demonic.

Frankly, I think that a lot of what is called speaking in tongues today is demonically inspired. Have I just blasphemed the holy spirit?

 

[daq]

Are you willing to admit that you have not committed a willful sin since you have been saved?

Are you willing to admit that you might not fully believe the Words of the Master the way they were intended?
Are you willing to admit that you might have been incorrectly taught concerning the meaning and purpose of grace?

Hebrews 10:26-31 KJV
26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Understand? Trampling the Spirit of Grace, (the Blood of our Covenant) is WORSE then breaking the Law of Moses. :)
Are you therefore willing to admit that you do not truly and fully understand what it means to be "saved"?
Give yourself half a chance by not ignoring the following passage but truly study it in your own time:

1 John 3:1-10 KJV
1. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

This is what it means to be born from above . . . :)

 

[williemac]

I'm coming to Rach's defense here. All of our sins are willful sins because they involve our will. What the writer of Hebrews was saying is that if we willfully walk away from the truth and deny Christ, there is nothing that can save us; there is no sacrifice for our sins because his sacrifice is the only way. The writer was exhorting the Hebrew believers to maintain faith in that sacrifice and not fall back to the old economy of trusting in animal sacrifices through which there is no salvation, but only 'a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries'.

I totally agree with what you are saying concerning the writer's intention. However, there is no definition given by he or anywhere else in the bible on sinning willfully. There are plenty of people with an opinion, but these cannot be proven. Therefore I say we simply go to the context, realize that he was referiing to a condition where a person has rejected the sacrifice of Jesus, and leave it at that. As the last verse in chapter 10 states, we are not of those who draw back to perdition (through unbelief), but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Thanks for your comment. ^_^

Frankly, I think that a lot of what is called speaking in tongues today is demonically inspired. Have I just blasphemed the holy spirit?

Demonically inspired? That does not even make sense. Those who speak in tongues as the bible describes it, do so as the Spirit gives utterance. If you are suggesting that demons are giving the utterance these days, then how do you explain that a believer such as myself was filled with the Holy Spirit (years ago) and was given the ability to speak (pray) in another tongue at that time, and ever since? However, since I am a believer, love Jesus, am filled with the Holy Spirit, am called according to His purpose, am seeking His purpose, how is it that a demon is inspiring me to speak in tongues? I am not in fellowship with demons, thank you. ;)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Demonically inspired? That does not even make sense. Those who speak in tongues as the bible describes it, do so as the Spirit gives utterance. If you are suggesting that demons are giving the utterance these days, then how do you explain that a believer such as myself was filled with the Holy Spirit (years ago) and was given the ability to speak (pray) in another tongue at that time, and ever since? However, since I am a believer, love Jesus, am filled with the Holy Spirit, am called according to His purpose, am seeking His purpose, how is it that a demon is inspiring me to speak in tongues? I am not in fellowship with demons, thank you. ;)

I'm not saying everyone is, but I do think a lot of it is. Keep in mind that it's of the flesh it's demonically inspired. Go watch John Crowder on Youtube and tell me if you think his 'talking in tongues' is holy spirit inspired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec91wvUY7Yo

 

[williemac]

I'm not saying everyone is, but I do think a lot of it is. Keep in mind that it's of the flesh it's demonically inspired. Go watch John Crowder on Youtube and tell me if you think his 'talking in tongues' is holy spirit inspired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec91wvUY7Yo

I will watch it later. But I will reply and tell you that I certainly have seen the gift being used inappropriately. Paul corrected inppropriate use. It can happen. This does not give license for others to conclude that demons are involved. Just saying.

 

[Groundzero]

I'm not saying everyone is, but I do think a lot of it is. Keep in mind that it's of the flesh it's demonically inspired. Go watch John Crowder on Youtube and tell me if you think his 'talking in tongues' is holy spirit inspired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec91wvUY7Yo

There's no holy spirit here, and this is not speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. This is a fool making a mockery of the Spirit of the Almighty God. If you think that this is the heavenly language as the Scripture describes, then you are sadly deluded.

 

[Ruth]

But everyone has willfully sinned after being born-again. Willful sin is knowingly sowing to the flesh when you know the Spirit is leading you another way. Knowing what the Spirit is telling you, yet willfully going your own way.

Very well said, and biblical

I totally agree with what you are saying concerning the writer's intention. However, there is no definition given by he or anywhere else in the bible on sinning willfully. There are plenty of people with an opinion, but these cannot be proven. Therefore I say we simply go to the context, realize that he was referiing to a condition where a person has rejected the sacrifice of Jesus, and leave it at that. As the last verse in chapter 10 states, we are not of those who draw back to perdition (through unbelief), but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Thanks for your comment. ^_^


Demonically inspired? That does not even make sense. Those who speak in tongues as the bible describes it, do so as the Spirit gives utterance. If you are suggesting that demons are giving the utterance these days, then how do you explain that a believer such as myself was filled with the Holy Spirit (years ago) and was given the ability to speak (pray) in another tongue at that time, and ever since? However, since I am a believer, love Jesus, am filled with the Holy Spirit, am called according to His purpose, am seeking His purpose, how is it that a demon is inspiring me to speak in tongues? I am not in fellowship with demons, thank you. ;)

Axehead answered your question on willful sin, And I did in my short testimony....

anytime you are going against the teaching of scripture, any time you are choosing to submit to sin over submitting to the Holy Spirit you are willfully sinning.

Jesus will always except our repentance, the only thing that is not forgiven is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit......BE VERY CAREFUL TO CALL ONE OF THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT DEMONIC

Can a person who is NOT born again speak in tongues, YES if he is possessed by a demon.

a born again Christian would not speak with a demonic gift....you must test every spirit, if the person claims to be born again, and speaks in tongues I would be very fearful to call it demonic, only if you are sure the Holy Spirit has shown you other wise, for example, does this person bear fruits of the Spirit, do they submit to the true teachings of the gospel.