Works vs. Good works

[Insight]

I appreciate all the answers.... Here are my thoughts on the subject:

1. Is there a difference in the two terms?

I believe there is a difference. Works are things we do for ourselves and may also be things we do for other. "Good works" (used 19 times in the NT) are almost always (but not always) defined as things we do for or in relation to God's will.

2. Must we do works?

No. I'm not agains doing them. But they do not get you into the kingdom of God. They don't keep you out either.

3. Must we do "good works"?

I believe so. There are things the Lord wants us to do. He wants proper worship of him, he wants us to be givers, and he wants us to look out for the brethren.

4. What exactly is a work?

And example of a work is giving to a charity (and letting everyone know about it), quitting a bad habit or living by the law.

5. What exactly is a good work?

Again, proper worship, going to Church, caring for the brethren, and giving to the Church.

6. Is there a "bad work"?

All works that are not good works are bad works if we use them (or try to) to promote our own righteousness.

7. Do you believe James when he says "faith without works is dead"?
8. Do you believe Paul when whe says "grace is not of works"?
9. If you believe them both, how do you reconcile both statements?

This is an interesting set of questions which I'm sure many of you have seen before in one form or another. My basic view point is that if James was talking about "good works", then he is correct. I don't however, believe he was. In his epistle, Jame is absolutely right in dealing with the problems he was having with his congregation. They were treating the big wigs with more prestige than the poorer folks. James said that was wrong. He also gave plenty of other words of wisdom. However, when he argues "faith without works is dead", he wrong -- unless he's talking about "good works", which he doesn't indicate. We must remember that James was addressing the twelve scattered tribes directly. Paul addressed the Saints.

Most of you know about the Jerusalem Council. Look back on it and you will see that James still was looking to lay some rules down on the gentiles. Paul didn't acknowledge them.

As for this notion that works are a sign of faith or a by product of faith, I don't believe that either. If so, then people can boast about them and use them as a badge of their righteousness. But faith is not of works, lest any should boast.

Some people are still going to see good works though. We are saved by grace. How do we get grace? By faith. How does the Bible say we get faith? By hearing the word of God. How do we hear the word of God? Through a preacher. Thus, people will see you going to Church, or at least the preacher will.

Some good thoughts presented here.

Have you considered the audience of both James and Pauls works and how this may broaden your understanding of faith and works?

I believe this approach will help you reconcile their message.

Insight

 

[FHII]

Some good thoughts presented here.

Have you considered the audience of both James and Pauls works and how this may broaden your understanding of faith and works?

I believe this approach will help you reconcile their message.

Insight

I have absolutely considered the audience. I did mention it. James was addressing the twelve tribes which were scattered. Paul most of the time was addressing the saints of various Churches.

 

[Vengle]

Must we do good works?

That is like asking, "Must we always love?"

Do we love in word only? How then does that benefit our neighbor? (that by the way is the point James 2 makes)

We love principally by works that benefit our neighbor and that is what God has commanded us to do.

Agapao is a verb which denotes action. That is the love we are told to have.

1 John 4:19 We <G2249> love <G0025> <him> <G0846>, because <G3754> he <G0846> first <G4413> loved <G0025> us <G2248>.
<G0025> = agapao

agape is a noun which denotes possessing the qualitiy that allows one to show agapao. That is why 1 John 4:8 uses the word agape when it tells us that God is love.

What 1 John 4:8 says is this, "He that agapao not knoweth not God; for God is agape."

After reading 1 John 4:8 and understanding that agapao is love in action showing itself through good works, perhaps we might reconsider the idea that claims we do not need good works.

But if others are content to love in word rather than deeds, well, that is their choice. I pray that they will wake up before that idea costs them their salvation.

Here we find agapao again: Matthew 22:37 <Jesus> <G2424> <said> <G5346> unto him <G0846>, Thou shalt love <G0025> the <G9999> Lord <G2962> thy <G4675> God <G2316> with <G1722> all <G3650> thy <G4675> heart <G2588>, and <G2532> with <G1722> all <G3650> thy <G4675> soul <G5590>, and <G2532> with <G1722> all <G3650> thy <G4675> mind <G1271>.
38 This <G3778> is <G2076> the <G3588> first <G4413> and <G2532> great <G3173> commandment <G1785>.
39 And <G1161> the <G9999> second <G1208> is <G9999> like unto <G3664> it <G0846>, Thou shalt love <G0025> thy <G4675> neighbour <G4139> as <G5613> thyself <G4572>.
And also here: Romans 13:8 Owe <G3784> no man <G3367> anything <G3367>, but <G1487> <G3361> to love <G0025> one another <G0240>, for <G1063> he that loveth <G0025> another <G2087> hath fulfilled <G4137> the <G9999> law <G3551>.

Love always works and its works are always good works, but Romans 13:10 "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (agapao) is the fulfilling of the law."

Everywhere we are commanded to love it is the action verb because, Galatians 5:6 "......faith ... worketh by love."

No works = faith has no agapao = faith not working.

 

[Insight]

I have absolutely considered the audience. I did mention it. James was addressing the twelve tribes which were scattered. Paul most of the time was addressing the saints of various Churches.

Excellect.

Its all about the Gospel apart from which we have no hope. However the Gospel message only gives us a start. For us It all depends how we walk after that. Hence enter James and his exhortations that illustrate what manner of persons we ought to be in all holy living and godliness.

He explains how faith needs to be transmitted into action.

Context therefore is required when considering faith and works.

James wrote primarily to a certain class of Jew: to those who had embraced the Truth in Christ. They experienced trial, hardship and persecution. Many of them were opposed by their wealthy fellow-Jews who had not embraced the Gospel, and who, doubtless manifested their hostility towards believing Jews because of their bitter opposition to the truth in Christ (James 2:6,7).

As you are no doubt aware, James encouragement to this class of Jew was essential if they were to remain in Christ and not return to the shackles of the Law.

One such example of encouragement was found in the use of the tongue.

James pointed his lessons towards the suffering Jew under great trials. However, there were faults among the Jewish believers that had to be corrected. The tongue was being used in a manner that led to a state of quarrelsome contention which destroyed the very basics of the life in Christ (See James 1:19,26; 2:13; 3:2-12; 4:11-17; 5:12).

Therefore, a “work” can be defined as something as simple as restraining the tongue.

Like many studies in the Scriptures we find our notions are challenge when the Word of God is opened, examined, obeyed and lived.

Thank you for your time

Insight

 

[Insight]

The issue facing James being the elder of the Jerusalem congregation was continually dealing and fighting against the blatant class distinctions most of which the epistle is directed towards.

James warned continually against façade of Christianity and its insincere attitude (James 4:5,6).

Actually in terms of the OP works vs. good work, was the tendency for the sincere Jewish believers to be made to feel insignificant because the wealthy Judaistic formalism (rich works) which robbed them of the Truth and its power. James required them to see a "more excellent way" in Christ which should be clearly understood by the pure and simple hearted (James 1:26,27; 2:14-26).

Clearly these class distinctions are evident in churches all around the world so making the Epistle of James a powerful and confronting look at true religion and its apparent substance.

Even today we have hearers of the Word but how many actually do it? (James 1:22)

So a “very good work” is to practice the basic disciplines of discipleship.

• Prayer
• Reading
• Studying
• Mediation
• Preaching
• Welfare
• Fasting

(In no particular order)
.
In his epistle James shows us the need to develop faith harnessing the power in the outworking of a changed life…if its not changed its "hypocritical religion" and a stench in Gods nostrils.

Failure in continually practices these in your home will develop symptoms approaching spiritual death. James already diagnosed the state of some in the Jerusalem ecclesia and so sought to uplift and edify to perform these works patiently and quietly.

Sadly, so few of us rarely discuss the essential elements, or the practicing of these principles in everyday life.

James if writing in this forum would seriously rebuke all of us in these matter.

I wonder if we would listen.

Insight

 

[aspen]

I really only just met aspen through his comments here. I agree with the spirit of the comment he made.

I have had my struggles for a certainty in seeking to understand what God wanted me to understand. I genuinely feel that no man on this earth could be more obstinent and stubbornly self-rightouss in the belief that they knew how it works, than I have been.

Humbling myself so that I could hear God has been a long process for me. Before, I could never have heard you and related to what you were saying and to how you formulated the way you saw it in your mind. I was too blind to really see anything but the voices in my own head, even when I thought I was listening to others.

That is why I am so very fond of Paul and the way he recognized that he was formerly an insulent man. (1 Timothy 1:12-16)

God has used the huge similarities between myself and Paul to open my ears and eyes. And it has not always been a pleasant process.

I cannot imagine any of you on here being as bad as I was. Like as Paul said and did, I just try all the more through faith in God to be all the more humble than I was haughty. That keeps the bar set pretty high for me.

We really blew it in the Garden......and we think we can fix it by being 'right' - yet every time we act on this impulse, we eat from the tree, once more. In reality, the only Judge is God. We were created to love, rather than judge; yet we specialize in exercising our primitive, concrete, black and white thinking to make decisions on our own - which of course is impossible to carry out without relying on looking back in hindsight because we are finite and cannot see the future.....it certainly is a curse......thankfully, God can restore us from the disease of 'Dead Right'.

The Pharisees are a portrait of the condition of Dead Right, within the Church. Unfortunately, Christian and Jewish are far from immune from the Human Condition. It takes an inside job to restore our hearts - only God can melt away the hardness, self-centered-ness, empty, self survival tendencies of our Fallen hearts and minds. Once we meet Christ and allow Him to make us vulnerable, we can be restored to fulfill our purpose to love.

We are all in the same boat, Vengle.

BTW, you cannot separate faith and works.

 

[Insight]

BTW, you cannot separate faith and works.

 

[brionne]

I'd like to start a conversation about these two terms. I do have an end point in mind, which I will talk about, but first I'd like to know if anyone sees a difference in these two terms. We know the verses that state faith is not of works, but many times we are told to do "good works".

It's almost obvious that there must be a difference. We aren't saved by our works, as we have been told. Yet James seems to suggest that works is a by product of faith. Yet, Paul seems to disagree. Yet, James had a Church and Paul had a Church(s) and by their epistles, both these men of God had similar problems with their congregations. Yet how did they handle it?

So, I have a bunch of questions to ask. Feel free to weigh in on any of them...

1. Is there a difference in the two terms?

There are actually 3 types of 'works' mentioned in the scriptures. They are Mosaic Law Works, Secular Works & Good works.
the context determines which type of 'works' is being discussed. Paul was often explain why 'works' of Mosaic law' are not binding on Christians. Often when they wrote about 'works', they were speaking about 'works of mosaic law'
These are the rituals, regulations, observances,sacrificial offerings, purifications, and circumcision, festivals....these were all 'works of law'

The secular works are mentioned as “laborious work” as mentioned at Le 23:6-8, 21, 24, 25, 34-36. That would include selling, harvesting, working on your crops, gathering, planting, weaving, sewing...anything that an Israelite did to support themselves financially was a 'laborious work'

And Good Works were things mentioned by James:
2:15 If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, 16 yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? 17 Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself"
So the 'Good Works' are those things we do for others, the kindnesses we show, the support we give, our willingness to be forgiving, our charity...these are 'Good Works' because they stem from 'goodness' within us.

2. Must we do works?
3. Must we do "good works"?
4. What exactly is a work?
5. What exactly is a good work?
6. Is there a "bad work"?

if our faith is alive, we will be motivated to do works, yes. They will be the works of Love according to the 'kingly law' given by Christ... namely, "you must love your neighbour as yourself"
If you live by that law, you will be fulfilling all the requirements of the Mosaic law.

A bad work is anything which any act of conduct which is out of harmony with 'love'

7. Do you believe James when he says "faith without works is dead"?
8. Do you believe Paul when whe says "grace is not of works"?
9. If you believe them both, how do you reconcile both statements?

Yes, Paul and James are both right and they are speaking about different works. the 'works of law' of the old testament were not imposed on the christian congregation, but the NT does speak a lot about them because some jewish christians were having trouble letting go of the mosaic law and that is what Paul was often on about.

Paul encouraged christians to practice 'good works' as opposed to 'works of law'
Ephesians 2:9 No, it is not owing to works(mosaic works of law), in order that no man should have ground for boasting. 10 For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works

the good works are things that spring from love, the sort of works that cause us to reach out to others, to help the needy, to support the weak, to preach to the good news etc
Heb 6:10 “God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name, in that you have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering.”

Paul understood that the works a christian is obliged to observe are the works of giving.
Acts 20:35 I have exhibited to YOU in all things that by thus laboring YOU must assist those who are weak, and must bear in mind the words of the Lord Jesus, when he himself said, ‘There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.’”


James attaches importance of the 'good works' of a christian and likens 'good works' to how it was when Jews followed the Mosaic Law. If a Jew failed in one aspect of the law, he was a transgressor against all the Mosaic law.....and he shows that the law of Love works the same way...if you fail to show love in one respect, then you have failed to abide by the law of love.
James 2:10 For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all. 11 For he who said: “You must not commit adultery,” said also: “You must not murder.” If, now, you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of law. 12 Keep on speaking in such a way and keep on doing in such a way as those do who are going to be judged by the law of a free people. 13 For the one that does not practice mercy will have [his] judgment without mercy

Vs 8 If, now, YOU practice carrying out the kingly law according to the scripture: “You must love your neighbor as yourself,” YOU are doing quite well. 9 But if YOU continue showing favoritism, YOU are working a sin, for YOU are reproved by the law as transgressors.

 

[Vengle]

I enjoyed your posts Insight, especially #25.

There in the opening chapters of Romans we see that Paul was speaking to Jews also.

Romans 2:17 ¶Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

The Jews had been scattered all over years ealier when Samaria was conquered so that there came to be much opposition to the message of Christ in every part of the world and also many lost sheep who would prove to be true Israelites by faith. Paul was laboring to get his fellow Jews to see clearly what a real Jew ought to be according to God's will. And that would help to heal divisions and arguments within the congregations as well as equip all both Jews and Gentiles to explain the matter to the as yet unbelieving Jews and the world.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

One thing I would like to point out is that when Paul used the word "works", most often he meant "works of the Old Law". Paul's use of the word "works" ought to not be understood as meaning all works, but the works that were required by that Old Law. Yet when we grasp Paul's reasononing as to why that was so concerning the works of the Old Law, we find that any of us can use works in a similar way as they did under the Old Law, building that which was torn down up again, just having our own slightly different twist to it. And for that reason we have many church leaders today that are actually like the Pharisees, having recreated their own version of the book of traditions and not treating the flock with tenderness.

We see that Paul was well aware of this coming of these lawless ones and was working to delay that from happening: Acts 20: 26-32

Aspen, I really like that analogy of eating again from that tree every time we act on pride's impulse to be right. That certainly sums it up.

The wild thing is that looking back on the days of such ignorance I did not even know how miserable my pride was making me. And that acted additionally to make my walk in Christ even more unstable. Jesus had to keep reaching his arm into the pit and pulling me out over and over. How glad i am for his love!!!

I only now got a chance to read your post Pegg. I very much agree. Isn't it wonderful how our loving God has helped us all to amplify different but harmonious views to this subject. Those that do not understand it now surely must not want to understand it. They yet have too much flesh in their eyes. I know we will all keep them in our prayers.

 

[FHII]

For those of you who think you can't separate works and faith, I'd like your commentary on Gal 2:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[Prentis]

I would follow it up with Galatians 3, to give proper explanation
[sup]1[/sup] O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[sup][a][/sup] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[sup][b][/sup] as crucified? [sup]2[/sup] This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [sup]3[/sup] Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? [sup]4[/sup] Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
[sup]5[/sup] Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— [sup]6[/sup]

Doing a miracle is a work, but a work of faith, not of the law. The error that Paul is correcting is that the Galatians where trying to be perfected through the works of the law, rather than by following the Spirit. This error is no different than that of the Pharisees.

There are works, but of faith. The error is to do it by the works of the law. We are dead to the law, yes, but alive to God, thus faith means we do HIS works.

 

[FHII]

Well, I don't mind you following up with Gal 3, and I like your commentary on it, but I was looking for a commentary on Gal 2. The reason being I am reading a lot from folks on this board (or reading into what they say) that faith is justified by works, or proven by works or at the very least works are evidence of faith. I do agree that if you have faith, works of the spirit will come. The problem is with the identification of faith by works.

That is one BIG problem I have with what James said:

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
I don't think anyone can show their faith by their works.... It leads to boasting. God will see your "good works", but man won't. Matthew 6 has a lot to do with this also.

 

[Prentis]

The commentary I would give you on Galatians two is very simple. We are not justified by the works of the law.

But faith is from the same word as faithful, fidelity. If we have faith in the Lord, we need also be faithful. That is what the Lord expects of his servants. We are justified by faith.

I have no problem with what James says. First of all, I think he's making a point, that faith is apparent by works. And secondly (this is where it gets messy) I think he is in great part talking about the first level of righteousness. That is, the righteousness of man, which is good.

The word of God also says 'it is not the hearer of the law, but the doer of the law who is justified'. Justified because he does the law? Yes. If man, out of an honest heart, not for the purpose of justifying himself, obeys the law, he is righteous.

But we have been called to the righteousness of Christ, that is, to do the works of God.

 

[Vengle]

FHI said: "The reason being I am reading a lot from folks on this board (or reading into what they say) that faith is justified by works, or proven by works or at the very least works are evidence of faith. I do agree that if you have faith, works of the spirit will come. The problem is with the identification of faith by works."

I touched on that in post #14.

You assume that showing that you have faith by being conscientious to have works leads to pride. But while a man can become prideful over his works were he was not at first prideful, or in the very start performs his works motivate by his pridefulness, it is yet not the fault of the good works. It is the fault of his carnal mind causing twiated thinking whereby he desirres credit to himself.

The good works do not cause it at all. Our faith would be cowardly if we had to run and hide from good works fearing that we could not perform them without becoming prideful.

Faith works out of the love contained it. That is what Paul told us at Galatians 5:6. What James told them about showing his faith by his works amounts to saying, 'You say you have faith that is devoid of love. I will show you my faith by the love which is supposed to be a part of faith.'

If you know anything about love you know it cannot help but to perform good works toward others, not of pride, but of genuine fellow feeling. That is the Bible's teaching concerning love.

Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

The thinking that says good works cause pride is backward thinking. It is untrue. Sure, a man who at first was performing the good works of faith motivated by the love that goes hand in hand with faith can at times turn back to his carnal mind and switch to pride being his motive for works instead of the love that belongs to faith. But that is not the fault of the good works. It is the fault of the man not be cautious of his carnal nature.

James knew that. Those he was speaking to did not understand that and they blamed the works as many on this board blame the works. And that puts them in danger of being nothing but wagging tongues that only claim to have faith while the evidence is that they are nothing more than that fig tree that Jesus cursed for not bearing fruit.

Just think of faith as a fig tree, the sap that flows in it to promote the growth of fruit as love, and the fruit (the figs) as the good works of the tree/sap relationship (the faith/love relationship).

I can say the tree produced figs as in faith produced good works. Or I can say the sap is strong in that tree as seen by its figs.

You will have no love but your own pseudo brand of it if you have no faith. Apart from faith you will not learn from God what true love is and so it would be only your idea of what love is.

This idea that a living man needs not works is like sayng a fruit tree needs no fruit. Man was made in the image of God. 1 John 4:8 tells us God is love. If we have our roots firmly set in God, then we love. We love not by mere word, but by deed. Faith sets our roots in God. Love must show or the roots must not really be set in God. Love shows by the good works it does for others. And it evidences that our faith was really there to set our roots in God.

 

[brionne]

Well, I don't mind you following up with Gal 3, and I like your commentary on it, but I was looking for a commentary on Gal 2. The reason being I am reading a lot from folks on this board (or reading into what they say) that faith is justified by works, or proven by works or at the very least works are evidence of faith. I do agree that if you have faith, works of the spirit will come. The problem is with the identification of faith by works.

That is one BIG problem I have with what James said:

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
I don't think anyone can show their faith by their works.... It leads to boasting. God will see your "good works", but man won't. Matthew 6 has a lot to do with this also.

Galatians is speaking about Mosaic Law. Paul is telling them that the works of that Mosaic law cannot save them because they are saved by their faith.

So you have to be clear on the type of work being discussed.

There are 'Works of Law'. - these are mosaic law works such as festivals, sacrifices, tithes, sabbath observances, regulations and ceremonies performed as a part of the Mosaic laws.

But the 'Good Works' that James speaks of are those works of the spirit...works of faith, love, kindness, generosity, justice....these are all good works which a person of faith will exhibit because they are a person of faith. Faith without 'these sorts of works' is dead.

 

[Prentis]

Good post Pegg, right on the money!

 

[Insight]

I enjoyed your posts Insight, especially #25.

There in the opening chapters of Romans we see that Paul was speaking to Jews also.

Romans 2:17 ¶Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

The Jews had been scattered all over years ealier when Samaria was conquered so that there came to be much opposition to the message of Christ in every part of the world and also many lost sheep who would prove to be true Israelites by faith. Paul was laboring to get his fellow Jews to see clearly what a real Jew ought to be according to God's will. And that would help to heal divisions and arguments within the congregations as well as equip all both Jews and Gentiles to explain the matter to the as yet unbelieving Jews and the world.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

One thing I would like to point out is that when Paul used the word "works", most often he meant "works of the Old Law". Paul's use of the word "works" ought to not be understood as meaning all works, but the works that were required by that Old Law. Yet when we grasp Paul's reasononing as to why that was so concerning the works of the Old Law, we find that any of us can use works in a similar way as they did under the Old Law, building that which was torn down up again, just having our own slightly different twist to it. And for that reason we have many church leaders today that are actually like the Pharisees, having recreated their own version of the book of traditions and not treating the flock with tenderness.

We see that Paul was well aware of this coming of these lawless ones and was working to delay that from happening: Acts 20: 26-32

Aspen, I really like that analogy of eating again from that tree every time we act on pride's impulse to be right. That certainly sums it up.

The wild thing is that looking back on the days of such ignorance I did not even know how miserable my pride was making me. And that acted additionally to make my walk in Christ even more unstable. Jesus had to keep reaching his arm into the pit and pulling me out over and over. How glad i am for his love!!!

I only now got a chance to read your post Pegg. I very much agree. Isn't it wonderful how our loving God has helped us all to amplify different but harmonious views to this subject. Those that do not understand it now surely must not want to understand it. They yet have too much flesh in their eyes. I know we will all keep them in our prayers.

It's lovely to behold the one-mindedness on this subject.

May Gods blessing rest on all involved!

Insight

p.s. my pet teaching as reinforced in this above thread..."always go back to the context of the passage". We need to enter the mind of the writers and thier audience to better grasp their circumstances; else we can seriously fall into the trap of teaching error.

 

[Perspectives]

If in a rowboat on a lake and using only one oar your likely to just turn circles. But if you put faith and works in motion you'll get somewhere.

 

[Vengle]

If in a rowboat on a lake and using only one oar your likely to just turn circles. But if you put faith and works in motion you'll get somewhere.

I have certainly felt like I was doing that one arm rowing much of the time!!! LOL. A better screen name for me would be Dizzy. The harder I rowed the dizzier I got. I had that boat turning such a hard circle it was spinning like a top.

 

[Perspectives]

I have certainly felt like I was doing that one arm rowing much of the time!!! LOL. A better screen name for me would be Dizzy. The harder I rowed the dizzier I got. I had that boat turning such a hard circle it was spinning like a top.

Not dizzy anymore, blessings to you.