Works vs. Good works

[FHII]

I'd like to start a conversation about these two terms. I do have an end point in mind, which I will talk about, but first I'd like to know if anyone sees a difference in these two terms. We know the verses that state faith is not of works, but many times we are told to do "good works".

It's almost obvious that there must be a difference. We aren't saved by our works, as we have been told. Yet James seems to suggest that works is a by product of faith. Yet, Paul seems to disagree. Yet, James had a Church and Paul had a Church(s) and by their epistles, both these men of God had similar problems with their congregations. Yet how did they handle it?

So, I have a bunch of questions to ask. Feel free to weigh in on any of them...

1. Is there a difference in the two terms?
2. Must we do works?
3. Must we do "good works"?
4. What exactly is a work?
5. What exactly is a good work?
6. Is there a "bad work"?
7. Do you believe James when he says "faith without works is dead"?
8. Do you believe Paul when whe says "grace is not of works"?
9. If you believe them both, how do you reconcile both statements?

I apologize for asking loaded questions. Feel free to load up your own questions if you don't like mine. I will promise to answer my own questions, Lord willing. But I'd like to hear what you have to say first.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

Prentis ? Calling Prentis ...

 

[Prentis]

Two things I think are important here.

Firstly, something Episkopos stated well, works salvation is to take works as a checklist, and say 'done'! But God is not against doing good, he is against self-justification, which consists of justifying oneself by his works, whether that is believing, or feeding, or whatever. To do good is never evil, unless the intent of the heart is evil. What matters is what it does to your heart.

Secondly, there are different kinds of works. The works of men, the works of God. Works of wickedness, works of righteousness. The Bible speaks of such things.

The modern 'allergy' to works is an allergy to legalism. It is a reaction from conservatism which goes to liberalism, which are both wrong. The fruit remains the same, because the root is the same, rebellion. And both result in self-justification.

 

[Rach1370]

I'd like to start a conversation about these two terms. I do have an end point in mind, which I will talk about, but first I'd like to know if anyone sees a difference in these two terms. We know the verses that state faith is not of works, but many times we are told to do "good works".

It's almost obvious that there must be a difference. We aren't saved by our works, as we have been told. Yet James seems to suggest that works is a by product of faith. Yet, Paul seems to disagree. Yet, James had a Church and Paul had a Church(s) and by their epistles, both these men of God had similar problems with their congregations. Yet how did they handle it?

So, I have a bunch of questions to ask. Feel free to weigh in on any of them...

Nice Thread! Will do my best to answer!

1. Is there a difference in the two terms?

I think it very much depends on what context the words are used. Are we talking about them in relation to salvation, or to what a Christian (who is already saved) should be doing in their life? As Christians I would say that we are to work, and that we most certainly should do 'good works'. Not for our salvation, but because we are told to do both. We are told to work diligently at our 'job', giving glory to God in every little thing that we do. And of course as Christians their are specific 'good' things we are to do...like care for widows, orphans, sick, elderly. Get into our community etc...all in the name of God. The first, I would say, is more of a case of 'preaching the gospel without words', while the second is definitely done under the full banner of Jesus! If that makes sense!


I think that may have answered questions 2 to 4 as well!

6. Is there a "bad work"?

Anything that hurts God or His people could be considered as a 'bad work'.

7. Do you believe James when he says "faith without works is dead"?
8. Do you believe Paul when whe says "grace is not of works"?
9. If you believe them both, how do you reconcile both statements?

Yes I believe both James and Paul. And I think that reconciliation is not hard. You must understand that Paul has a way of arguing that was all or nothing. If someone in his church was saying that works would get everyone into heaven, Paul would turn around and deny it absolutely. Which is true, of course, but one would almost think Paul is saying one mustn't do any works at all! That's not true, as in his books he gives us pretty specific information of things we should do! It's just how he argues a point is all!
Anyway, this is how I see these two passages sitting together. Paul says "Works will not get you into heaven, only Jesus will". And James says "faith that does not produce good works (or fruit) is dead". Basically it's this: We know that the only way to the Father is through Jesus and His work on the cross, so Paul's statement is spot on. But we also know that anyone truly saved will have a new heart, and out of that new heart will come a desire to live for Jesus and show that love in many different ways. So anyone saying they are born again but simply do not show it by the way they live and interact with others...well, they have not been regenerated. They are 'dead' in their 'faith'. For whatever reason they are claiming Christ, they have not truly met Him.

I apologize for asking loaded questions. Feel free to load up your own questions if you don't like mine. I will promise to answer my own questions, Lord willing. But I'd like to hear what you have to say first.

Not to worry! I quite like posts that are structured in a very easy way to answer! Looking forward to what your point is!

 

[lawrance]

Your own works are worth nothing.

The only works that are of any value is Jesus Christ working in you. and what you do as so is the only thing that is worthy in Christ.

You can do your own works that may be ok if they are not a sin but this is not what leads to salvation.

Someone could be thinking they are doing good works but they are not because if it is not in Christ it is just dead works.

The ten commandments are still the way of God, but only under and in Christ then they are a shining light.
Tho shall honer your farther and mother etc is that not a work?

If you would enter life, keep the commandments. the Law has not been abolished. Mt 5:7
Jesus acknowledge the ten commandments, but he also showed the power of the spirit at work in their letter he preached a rightenosness which exceeds that of the scribs and pharisees and the gentiles. so in Jesus Christ the full meaning is revealed, you should love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, this is the first and greatest and second is like it you should love your neighbour as your self and on theise two hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Prentis]

So if a Christian honors his mother and father, that's good, but if a non-christian does, it's meaningless?

 

[Rach1370]

So if a Christian honors his mother and father, that's good, but if a non-christian does, it's meaningless?

Nope! At least, I don't think so! If a non-Christian honours his mother and father, it won't get him salvation, but it most certainly is a good thing! I think it falls under 'common grace'...God gives everyone...saved and not...a conscience, a moral compass of sorts. So, while it may not lead a person to salvation, ultimately, every good thing is given by God and gives glory to God.

 

[Prentis]

But then it's still meaningless for that person.

 

[prism]

There is no real difference between Paul's and James' explanation of faith and works.
Paul is speaking against works as a means of justification...a non starter.
James is speaking from a viewpoint as works being evidence (a.k.a. fruit of our salvation).
Remember Jesus speaking of a good tree bringing forth good fruit?
We don't bring forth good works (fruit) in order to be good; but we bring forth good works through His abiding Spirit and Word as well as our position in Christ.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)

 

[Rach1370]

But then it's still meaningless for that person.

I suppose, in the grand scheme of things...but even though we live in light of eternity, we still have to live each day here, interact with others. Even unsaved people have relationships with other, they still love and have a full life to live. So, I'm wonder what your point is? That they shouldn't bother being descent people if they're going to hell? That their life is meaningless because they are not saved? That simply can't be true. These people are lost and blind and need Jesus, but every day they live could be a day they come to know Jesus. We cannot forget that up until a person dies, they may still be called by God. And having been a decent person before that will mean that sin will not have wreaked such havoc destroying their relationships.
I think perhaps your not arguing that...but you haven't made it clear!!

 

[lawrance]

But then it's still meaningless for that person.

How could it be meaningless in any case as it is just naturally correct thing. or something has to be wrong.
I don't think it's got anything to do with being religious but even people who do not know God, do know of him or can with out being told as we all do have the Spirit in us naturally but only the stain of original Sin that is the problem.
The idea of the scriptures is to bring us to comprehend it all. the books are books but the Spirit is more than any book.

 

[aspen]

works - actions that promote the ego

good works - actions that promote the love of God and neighbor, based on personal reflection on the love of God of the true self.

 

[Prentis]

My point is actually very different, that it is true when it says 'it is not the hearers of the law who are justified, but the doers of the law' that men do not have to hear the law.

The sheep, at the judgment of the sheep and the goats, they don't know that they helped Christ.

And there are two judgments and two ressurections!

We are too quick to think that one who does good will be judged if he does out of his heart, just because he has no revelation of Christ. We get so confused over what Paul says because it is difficult to understand. Paul speaks of the righteousness of Christ, that is, walking in the Spirit. And he speaks to those called to it, the church. It does not erase the righteousness of the good Samaritan or the Publican, but it is above it.

 

[Vengle]

Aspen said: "works - actions that promote the ego

good works - actions that promote the love of God and neighbor, based on personal reflection on the love of God of the true self."

That is the heart of the matter. Aspen is in line with sound thinking in what he said but for one small detail. And those tiny little details are the things that we must see to understand.

Aspen has the process exactly backward. It is not the work which promotes ego. It is the ego (pride) which promotes work. Pride is a driving force. That is why the world thinks pride is the thing often missing and needed.

The problem is not the works. The problem is the origin of the works. Pride causes those works to originate from our self because it is based upon confidence in our ability to accomplish and please our self by having accomplished. Modern psychology is built around this idea.

Paul speaks of faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:6) Faith is trust and it causes us to listen to what we trust. When we trust God (instead of trusting our self as pride would have us do) we listen to God. When we listen to God we come to know God. When we come to know God we are moved to love God. And when we love God we learn ever greater with each passing day what true love is. And we cannot help but copy that in ourselves for we are made to image him.

Love cannot exist dormant. Love is a promoter of works as pride is a promoter of works. But love is an unselfish promoter and the works that it promotes are the good works that are of God.

We cannot just look upon the one working and judge that they are trying to justify their own self through works. We do not know what is going on on their heart lest it is an extreme case where other of their fruits along with it reveals the true quality of their works.

If we love God and neighbor we do so because God's love has moved us to love. And the good works of love are its manifestation of appreciation for God and all that he has created. That is why love cannot exist dormant.

Please see my posts about pride on the thread, "Obedience to God" in the Bible Debate section.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

Blessing someone who curses you, what kind of work is that ?

 

[aspen]

Aspen said: "works - actions that promote the ego

good works - actions that promote the love of God and neighbor, based on personal reflection on the love of God of the true self."

That is the heart of the matter. Aspen is in line with sound thinking in what he said but for one small detail. And those tiny little details are the things that we must see to understand.

Aspen has the process exactly backward. It is not the work which promotes ego. It is the ego (pride) which promotes work. Pride is a driving force. That is why the world thinks pride is the thing often missing and needed.

The problem is not the works. The problem is the origin of the works. Pride causes those works to originate from our self because it is based upon confidence in our ability to accomplish and please our self by having accomplished. Modern psychology is built around this idea.

Paul speaks of faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:6) Faith is trust and it causes us to listen to what we trust. When we trust God (instead of trusting our self as pride would have us do) we listen to God. When we listen to God we come to know God. When we come to know God we are moved to love God. And when we love God we learn ever greater with each passing day what true love is. And we cannot help but copy that in ourselves for we are made to image him.

Love cannot exist dormant. Love is a promoter of works as pride is a promoter of works. But love is an unselfish promoter and the works that it promotes are the good works that are of God.

We cannot just look upon the one working and judge that they are trying to justify their own self through works. We do not know what is going on on their heart lest it is an extreme case where other of their fruits along with it reveals the true quality of their works.

If we love God and neighbor we do so because God's love has moved us to love. And the good works of love are its manifestation of appreciation for God and all that he has created. That is why love cannot exist dormant.

Please see my posts about pride on the thread, "Obedience to God" in the Bible Debate section.

Ego = False Self = 'Old Man' (we must throw off) = Pride = Self love.

Theses terms can be used interchangeably.

If we live in our false selves, God will tell us to depart because He only recognizes our true selves. God actually gave us the Ego in the Garden (animals skins to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness), but it was at the expense of an intimate relationship with God. Now, since Christ died for use, we no longer need to hide behind the Ego or puff it up with lies about ourselves - instead we are called to be humble (knowing our strengths and weaknesses) and vulnerable (trusting God to love us) and love God and neighbor (prospective taking, empathy, forgiveness and service).

 

[Vengle]

Comm.Arnold asked. "Blessing someone who curses you, what kind of work is that ?"

What kind of work it is yet depends upon whether it was just a vain work motivate of pride, or a sincere work motivated of godly love.

The only completely true and pure knowledge belong's to God. The same is true of both understanding and wisdom.

As we through our faith pay attention to God and grow in our love for God we also increase in our level of true knowledge and understanding and wisdom.

What value would those things be if they produce not works? That is their very purpose. The scriptures tell us this about what God is doing in connection with us: Isaiah 48:17-18 "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea."

That has not changed. All that has changed is that God brought an end to trying to work out righteousness through pride in our own ability. He has turned us to fath that we might listen to him and learn. He certainly has not absolved us from having to do good works. Those works are what put the knowledge and understanding and wisdom we learn through our faith in him, into action.
It is only in that way that we realize the benefit of our faith.

Amen on you comment Aspen.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

Comm.Arnold asked. "Blessing someone who curses you, what kind of work is that ?"

What kind of work it is yet depends upon whether it was just a vain work motivate of pride, or a sincere work motivated of godly love.

The only completely true and pure knowledge belong's to God. The same is true of both understanding and wisdom.

As we through our faith pay attention to God and grow in our love for God we also increase in our level of true knowledge and understanding and wisdom.

What value would those things be if they produce not works? That is their very purpose. The scriptures tell us this about what God is doing in connection with us: Isaiah 48:17-18 "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea."

That has not changed. All that has changed is that God brought an end to trying to work out righteousness through pride in our own ability. He has turned us to fath that we might listen to him and learn. He certainly has not absolved us from having to do good works. Those works are what put the knowledge and understanding and wisdom we learn through our faith in him, into action.
It is only in that way that we realize the benefit of our faith.

Amen on you comment Aspen.

Are you another Aspen alias ?

 

[Vengle]

I really only just met aspen through his comments here. I agree with the spirit of the comment he made.

I have had my struggles for a certainty in seeking to understand what God wanted me to understand. I genuinely feel that no man on this earth could be more obstinent and stubbornly self-rightouss in the belief that they knew how it works, than I have been.

Humbling myself so that I could hear God has been a long process for me. Before, I could never have heard you and related to what you were saying and to how you formulated the way you saw it in your mind. I was too blind to really see anything but the voices in my own head, even when I thought I was listening to others.

That is why I am so very fond of Paul and the way he recognized that he was formerly an insulent man. (1 Timothy 1:12-16)

God has used the huge similarities between myself and Paul to open my ears and eyes. And it has not always been a pleasant process.

I cannot imagine any of you on here being as bad as I was. Like as Paul said and did, I just try all the more through faith in God to be all the more humble than I was haughty. That keeps the bar set pretty high for me.

 

[FHII]

I appreciate all the answers.... Here are my thoughts on the subject:

1. Is there a difference in the two terms?

I believe there is a difference. Works are things we do for ourselves and may also be things we do for other. "Good works" (used 19 times in the NT) are almost always (but not always) defined as things we do for or in relation to God's will.

2. Must we do works?

No. I'm not agains doing them. But they do not get you into the kingdom of God. They don't keep you out either.

3. Must we do "good works"?

I believe so. There are things the Lord wants us to do. He wants proper worship of him, he wants us to be givers, and he wants us to look out for the brethren.

4. What exactly is a work?

And example of a work is giving to a charity (and letting everyone know about it), quitting a bad habit or living by the law.

5. What exactly is a good work?

Again, proper worship, going to Church, caring for the brethren, and giving to the Church.

6. Is there a "bad work"?

All works that are not good works are bad works if we use them (or try to) to promote our own righteousness.

7. Do you believe James when he says "faith without works is dead"?
8. Do you believe Paul when whe says "grace is not of works"?
9. If you believe them both, how do you reconcile both statements?

This is an interesting set of questions which I'm sure many of you have seen before in one form or another. My basic view point is that if James was talking about "good works", then he is correct. I don't however, believe he was. In his epistle, Jame is absolutely right in dealing with the problems he was having with his congregation. They were treating the big wigs with more prestige than the poorer folks. James said that was wrong. He also gave plenty of other words of wisdom. However, when he argues "faith without works is dead", he wrong -- unless he's talking about "good works", which he doesn't indicate. We must remember that James was addressing the twelve scattered tribes directly. Paul addressed the Saints.

Most of you know about the Jerusalem Council. Look back on it and you will see that James still was looking to lay some rules down on the gentiles. Paul didn't acknowledge them.

As for this notion that works are a sign of faith or a by product of faith, I don't believe that either. If so, then people can boast about them and use them as a badge of their righteousness. But faith is not of works, lest any should boast.

Some people are still going to see good works though. We are saved by grace. How do we get grace? By faith. How does the Bible say we get faith? By hearing the word of God. How do we hear the word of God? Through a preacher. Thus, people will see you going to Church, or at least the preacher will.