World Communism Is Not Dead

[aspen]

-- What an absolutely ridiculous statement :lol:

A Communist Nation and a Republic are both flawed because they are run by men. That is absolutely true.

But a flawed Republic such as ours has for over 200 years allowed for - as I mentioned - a man to worship as he sees fit, guarantees him privacy, freedom to choose the occupation he wants, live where he wants, study what he sees fit, leave if he sees fit, guarantees him a fair trial when he is accused of something, and lets him choose who he wants to represent him via a fair and private ballot.

With all its flaws and failings it has been responsible for the freeing of scores of nations and millions of people around the world, giving chance for those nations to have freedom, as well.

Communism? Not so much.

Gulags, imprisonment for criticizing the government, horrible or non-existant health care, no freedom of speech, no free press, no right to protest, no right to travel abroad without permission from the government, etc. etc. etc.

That type of oppression was in place before the fires of the overthrow that put Communism in place had gone out.


The simple truth is this, and there is no refuting it: In a choice between two flawed governments, Democracy trumps Communism every...single....time.







-- The "monastery" of today does not fit the definition of a monastery.

So my opinion is ridiculous AND you agree that all human made governments are flawed? LOL

Ok Foreigner.

We are not going to get anywhere with this conversation if you continue to argue a strawman. I am not claiming that communism works at the state level.

I am saying that human government systems are inherently flawed. The Corporate Oligarchy is no less moral than the Tyrannical Despot.

You seem to be suggesting that our government system is better than any other system simply because you benefit from it! You are failing to see how our government affects the rest of the world. Your own comfort is not the litmus test for a good government,

 

[veteran]

Did I miss something or what? Community sharing of property per The New Testament Church is what 'alms' was about, and that means it was an individual responsibility. It was not a Communist government one that takes from you without your consent. Even tithing per the Old Covenant system was no longer required per Paul in the New Covenant, but alms between the believer and God. One could give all, or only abundance they didn't need.

With monastic associations, one petitioning for membership understands the idea of giving all they have to the association, and does so by consent. And that is by individual choice, not by requirement of Christ, but by requirement of those kinds of earthly organizations.

So comparisons of monastic associations with Christian Churches regarding alms is like comparing apples and oranges. Both are fruits, but of different types. Christ did not mean for all His servants to take up ascetic living in a monastery, nor that all of His Body should live like that. Thus ascetics should not be trying to make Christ's Church conform to living in monasteries, and especially not using the doctrine of Communism which has nothing to do with the monastery (except in some ascetic's minds).

 

[Foreigner]

So my opinion is ridiculous AND you agree that all human made governments are flawed? LOL

Ok Foreigner.

We are not going to get anywhere with this conversation if you continue to argue a strawman. I am not claiming that communism works at the state level.

I am saying that human government systems are inherently flawed. The Corporate Oligarchy is no less moral than the Tyrannical Despot.

-- Your exact quote was: "The form of despotism you are calling communism has just as many faults as our republic we call a democracy."

That statement is what made me laugh outloud.

You see, I missed the part where those "flaws" have citizens of this Republic being shot trying to leave the country, arrested for writing a letter to the editor criticizing the government, or receiving a knock at 3:00 in the morning and disappearing because they are members of a political organization in opposition to the government.

Perhaps you could show me where that is happening here in the U.S? Because if you can't, then your claim truly is...well....ridiculous.



-- Or let me put it another way --



You calling America's government a "Corporate Oligarchy" doesn't change the fact that it gives freedoms and opportunities NEVER MADE AVAILABLE under the Tyranical Despot.

This "Corporate Oligarchy" you speak of still allows for:
- Freedom of press
- Free elections/the right to vote for whomever you wish
- Freedom to protest publically (even for those not legally in this country)
- Freedom to a fair trial
- Freedom to leave the country if you wish
- Freedom to attend the church of your choice
- Freedom to go to the school you choose
- Freedom to study whatever you wish
- Freedom to choose any profession you want
- Freedom to live anywhere you want
- Freedom to read whatever you want

The "Tyranical Despot" allows for NONE of those little things I like to call 'freedoms.' Yet you see them as being equally 'flawed.' That, too, is ridiculous.

You seem to be suggesting that our government system is better than any other system simply because you benefit from it! You are failing to see how our government affects the rest of the world. Your own comfort is not the litmus test for a good government,

- Yes, I am one of 300-plus million people enjoying the actual freedoms of this "Corporate Oligarchy" Just....like....you!

Because of these freedoms you can call it a "Corporate Oligarchy" and not fear arrest, torture, or death.

Yet you seem to imply that I (and the afore mentioned 300-plus million) should somehow apologize because we "benefit from it."


Honstly Aspen, it's hard to take someone seriously who uses the protections and freedoms of one society to advocate for a society that offers neither.





.

 

[Foreigner]

You are failing to see how our government affects the rest of the world. Your own comfort is not the litmus test for a good government,

-- There are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people around the world free today because of this "Corporate Oligarchy" you live in.

This "Corporate Oligarchy" is also responsible for the more human aid given to other countries than any other nation on earth.

And this terrible "Corporate Oligarchy" is the number one destination for immigration in the world today.

For some reason, people from countries run both by "Tyranical Despots" and other "Corporate Oligarchies" are flocking to come to this "Corporate Oligarchy."

Why? Freedoms not found anywhere else in the world. Period.

Apparently they are bad for wanting to "benefit from it" too.

Can you list things this country has done wrong? Absolutely.

I can also make a long list of things America has done to address the things they have done wrong inthe past....unlike a "Tyranical Despot."

 

[aspen]

Did I miss something or what? Community sharing of property per The New Testament Church is what 'alms' was about, and that means it was an individual responsibility. It was not a Communist government one that takes from you without your consent. Even tithing per the Old Covenant system was no longer required per Paul in the New Covenant, but alms between the believer and God. One could give all, or only abundance they didn't need.

With monastic associations, one petitioning for membership understands the idea of giving all they have to the association, and does so by consent. And that is by individual choice, not by requirement of Christ, but by requirement of those kinds of earthly organizations.

So comparisons of monastic associations with Christian Churches regarding alms is like comparing apples and oranges. Both are fruits, but of different types. Christ did not mean for all His servants to take up ascetic living in a monastery, nor that all of His Body should live like that. Thus ascetics should not be trying to make Christ's Church conform to living in monasteries, and especially not using the doctrine of Communism which has nothing to do with the monastery (except in some ascetic's minds).

Communism is not defined by whether or not a person consents to the system or not; it is the act of sharing property. Of course, forcing people to give up whatever the dictator happens to want at the moment is not going to make people happy - which is why communism doesn't work on the state level. Like the old saying concludes - communism has never really been tried - just like liberalism in America.

-- There are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people around the world free today because of this "Corporate Oligarchy" you live in.

This "Corporate Oligarchy" is also responsible for the more human aid given to other countries than any other nation on earth.

And this terrible "Corporate Oligarchy" is the number one destination for immigration in the world today.

For some reason, people from countries run both by "Tyranical Despots" and other "Corporate Oligarchies" are flocking to come to this "Corporate Oligarchy."

Why? Freedoms not found anywhere else in the world. Period.

Apparently they are bad for wanting to "benefit from it" too.

Can you list things this country has done wrong? Absolutely.

I can also make a long list of things America has done to address the things they have done wrong inthe past....unlike a "Tyranical Despot."

Well, I am tired of us talking about two different topics so have a good day.

 

[lawrance]

Communism is not defined by whether or not a person consents to the system or not; it is the act of sharing property. Of course, forcing people to give up whatever the dictator happens to want at the moment is not going to make people happy - which is why communism doesn't work on the state level. Like the old saying concludes - communism has never really been tried - just like liberalism in America.



Well, I am tired of us talking about two different topics so have a good day.

Communism has never been tried ? yes it has.
Liberalism ? it won't work.
This stuff is just idolatry aspen.

 

[aspen]

Communism has never been tried ? yes it has.
Liberalism ? it won't work.
This stuff is just idolatry aspen.

Claiming that pure communism has never existed at the state level is idolatry? Is forgetting to eat breakfast, blasphemy?

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Communism in it's most basic idea is good in theory. I imagine more like an ant colony where everyone does for the good of the colony and willingly sacrifices themselves for the colony. The idea of having a classless society is something that in theory seems peaceful. No hunger, everyone gets the same education or exact same opportunity for the same education, everyone get's healthcare and everyone gets a set wage. In theory, eveyone is free to do what they wish with their alloted amount.

The problem is, human beings can't function without a leader or leaders, and there's always others who want more. They want more money, or more power. Power corrupts and money corrupts. So, ends the theory of Communism being good as applied to life.

Anarchy is something I believe in. In theory this is good too. People governing themselves with no laws. People being absolutely free to do what ever they chose. The flaws in that? People want money or power. People still can't function without a leader.

Ah, and now we get to this wonderful idea of Democracy. Where people are free to govern themselves through majority vote of elected officials. Officials that make laws according to the vote of the majority. As with the above two ideas, people can't function without leaders. People want money and people want power. So, what do we suppose happens?

There's no way around it, it's all the same with different names and different disguises.

Do you really think you have a say in what the Government does? Do you really think that the US is a Democracy?

Fact of the matter is, we as humans are unable to govern jack squat. We willingly give up freedoms and liberties for supposed protection. The government says and we do.

 

[[email protected]]

Here's a list of Communist goals that 1950's FBI agent Cleon Skousen listed in his 1958 book The Naked Communist. The list of goals was entered into the U.S. Congressional Record by Florida Congressman A.S. Herlong Jr. in 1963.

The question is, do they reveal the working of Communism still today, showing that the cold war did not really end?


45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over nations and individuals alike.

I haven’t researched this Connally reservation. Maybe some could help with that. But the idea of a World Court to do away with our protections under the U.S. Constitution, that’s been a major work of only the past few decades, and is a major working today.

The conversation has devolved into rhetoric supporting global communism vs. global capitalism. The issues have been deeply examined on all sides and I see no reason for me to add to the muddy water at this point.

I do have questions related to the initial post at the head of this thread.

I've only quoted one point from that post and listed it here.
Please expand on the meaning of #45.

What are some examples of World Court restrictions on uS domestic policy?
What has been done and what do you feel might be done?
How might such WC restrictions be reversed or nullified if indeed they carry the force of law in America?

 

[Foreigner]

Well, I am tired of us talking about two different topics so have a good day.

-- Probably the best move.

When you are quoted as saying: "The form of despotism you are calling communism has just as many faults as our republic we call a democracy." .... and you are shown in no uncertain terms that you are wrong, it is best just to depart the field.

 

[Foreigner]

Communism is not defined by whether or not a person consents to the system or not; it is the act of sharing property.

-- The act of "sharing property" would not be able to exist on a city, state, or country level without being compulsory.

The fact that it would be compulsory means you would not have freedom. And it would go beyond sharing food, salary and property. It would mean that someone would have to mitigate to decide the dividing of opportunities, as well.

Who gets to go to what college, take what position, train for what skill, live in what city. (After all, if that city needs a doctor or some other service and no one there wants to do it or isn't qualified to do it, someone will have to be sent there to do it). If you leave it to chance it simply....does....not....work.

In the end it comes down to a committee or individual ruling with an iron hand to maintain an unmaintainable system.

It is not freedom and it is NOT realistic.

 

[veteran]

-- The act of "sharing property" would not be able to exist on a city, state, or country level without being compulsory.

The fact that it would be compulsory means you would not have freedom. And it would go beyond sharing food, salary and property. It would mean that someone would have to mitigate to decide the dividing of opportunities, as well.

Who gets to go to what college, take what position, train for what skill, live in what city. (After all, if that city needs a doctor or some other service and no one there wants to do it or isn't qualified to do it, someone will have to be sent there to do it). If you leave it to chance it simply....does....not....work.

In the end it comes down to a committee or individual ruling with an iron hand to maintain an unmaintainable system.

It is not freedom and it is NOT realistic.

That's why Apostle Paul didn't preach that tithes per the Old Covenant were by commandment anymore, but an alms based sharing. Those who want to give more can. It's about sharing the abundance one has to help out those in need.


1 Cor 16:1-3
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
(KJV)

2 Cor 8:8-15
8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich.
10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.
(KJV)

Communist-Socialism DOES mean for some to be burdened, so that others may be at ease. The Communist Party depends on it in order to exert control over those it rules over. Same type of things have been happening in the U.S. from welfare statism. In the above, Paul is advising according to each person's will, not according to commandment like Old Testament tithing.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

That's why Apostle Paul didn't preach that tithes per the Old Covenant were by commandment anymore, but an alms based sharing. Those who want to give more can. It's about sharing the abundance one has to help out those in need.


1 Cor 16:1-3
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
(KJV)

2 Cor 8:8-15
8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich.
10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.
(KJV)

Communist-Socialism DOES mean for some to be burdened, so that others may be at ease. The Communist Party depends on it in order to exert control over those it rules over. Same type of things have been happening in the U.S. from welfare statism. In the above, Paul is advising according to each person's will, not according to commandment like Old Testament tithing.

I wonder if people are misunderstanding what Communism is and Socialism is. Most of what the west or "free" societies understand come from what's known of communist China, Cuba, Korea, and the Old USSR. None of these countries are communist. They claim they are, but are actually under a dictatorship. The ideals and intents of the "leaders" claim to be communist but is actually a bastardized version of what the idea of communism was in the very first place.

Socialism being more of what Germany, Japan and Italy had at one time. Most of Socialism actually involves purity of race and preserving a race or country. It seems closely related to communism but actually isn't. Socialism creates a society of classes, and furthermore seperates an entire country of people from the wrest of the world. Socialist countries have always set themselves above everyone else as superior. Even if so, the country may seem to resemble communism, it creates a world system of classes where everyone is lesser then them.

 

[revturmoil]

So, how are other political systems more compatible with Christianity?

A republic or Democracy can easily exclude God, just like communism

Or they can include God, just like Communism.

I think you are also missing the fact that the Early church and monasteries were and are communist.

Not sure why you demonizing one form of government over another.

As much as people don't like it...you are correct!

Capitalism is evil. Socialism is actually very scriptural and so is communism!

 

[Foreigner]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ :lol:

 

[veteran]

I wonder if people are misunderstanding what Communism is and Socialism is. Most of what the west or "free" societies understand come from what's known of communist China, Cuba, Korea, and the Old USSR. None of these countries are communist. They claim they are, but are actually under a dictatorship. The ideals and intents of the "leaders" claim to be communist but is actually a bastardized version of what the idea of communism was in the very first place.

Socialism being more of what Germany, Japan and Italy had at one time. Most of Socialism actually involves purity of race and preserving a race or country. It seems closely related to communism but actually isn't. Socialism creates a society of classes, and furthermore seperates an entire country of people from the wrest of the world. Socialist countries have always set themselves above everyone else as superior. Even if so, the country may seem to resemble communism, it creates a world system of classes where everyone is lesser then them.

Socialism is the 'basis' of Communism. That's why the abbr. U.S.S.R. meant United Soviet Socialist Republic.

Trying to say countries like Red China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Russia, etc., are not Communist countries shows ignorance of history about Communism.

Marxism proposed that only when all his socialist principles were in place would there no longer be a need for a government of leaders. But until that time, they would be required. But he was lying about there eventually being no need for a ruling class structure, because no social structure can survive without some form of leadership; it's a simple fact of human nature. That's what makes his principles of socialism a lie from the very beginning.



Communism has nothing to do with monastic living, for even the monasteries have a ruling structure OVER them from the Church. They are still subject to Church authority, even all the way up to Christ Jesus. Those aren't even communes.

 

[aspen]

Trying to say countries like Red China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Russia, etc., are not Communist countries shows ignorance of history about Communism.

Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
Mao Tse-Tung

If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years.[font="Verdana][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
Vladimir Lenin


When one makes a Revolution, one cannot mark time; one must always go forward - or go back. He who now talks about the "freedom of the press" goes backward, and halts our headlong course towards Socialism.
Vladimir Lenin


The goal of socialism is communism.
Vladimir Lenin


Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem.
Joseph Stalin

It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.
Joseph Stalin

Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach.
Joseph Stalin

I am not a communist and neither is the revolutionary movement.
Fidel Castro

It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me.
Ho Chi Minh

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.
Ho Chi Minh
[font="'Book Antiqua"]
These are the words of dictators - not true Communists. It is interesting that none of them actually claimed their countries had achieved Communism.
[/font]

Communism has nothing to do with monastic living, for even the monasteries have a ruling structure OVER them from the Church. They are still subject to Church authority, even all the way up to Christ Jesus. Those aren't even communes.

[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font]
[font="'Book Antiqua"]Monks and nuns have committed to a life of obedience and community property. God is not incapable with Communism. They care for each other's needs - including end of life care - in return they are cared for. Communism is the closest comparison.[/font]

 

[veteran]

Belief in the word 'communism' as something to be achieved, or even applicable to something that already exists, is confusion. It's nothing but a fairy-tale term dreamed up by Christ's enemies in support of the globalist movement towards a fake copy of God's True Government that is to come on earth with Christ, a Monarchy.

Someone claiming to be a Christian cannot support Communist idealism and also support God's Government of a Monarchy at the same time.

Christ Jesus is GOD The Son and KING, The Supreme Monarch. There is nothing else. Anything else is temporary and nothing but confusion.

 

[aspen]

Belief in the word 'communism' as something to be achieved, or even applicable to something that already exists, is confusion. It's nothing but a fairy-tale term dreamed up by Christ's enemies in support of the globalist movement towards a fake copy of God's True Government that is to come on earth with Christ, a Monarchy.

Someone claiming to be a Christian cannot support Communist idealism and also support God's Government of a Monarchy at the same time.

Christ Jesus is GOD The Son and KING, The Supreme Monarch. There is nothing else. Anything else is temporary and nothing but confusion.

A Monarch that washing our feet and serves us and teaches the idea that the last shall be first and the first shall be last?

Yeah, that Christ is a regular King Henry the VIII....

 

[veteran]

A Monarch that washing our feet and serves us and teaches the idea that the last shall be first and the first shall be last?

Yeah, that Christ is a regular King Henry the VIII....

Your false love of Communism has bewitched you even against Christ's Authority...

Ps 2:6-12
6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto Me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give Thee the heathen for Thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for Thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.
(KJV)

Rev 2:26-27
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.
(KJV)

Rev 19:15-16
15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
(KJV)


Christ Jesus is not coming meek as a Lamb this next time. He is coming to reign with "a rod of iron", as KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. That means as Supreme Divine Monarch, even as Supreme Lord.

So you can go back and tell your Communist Party friends their little game of pushing pacifist doctrines into Christ's Church today, and propaganda against God's appointed kings ain't gonna' help them when Christ Jesus appears with that rod of iron and sharp sword.