Would you claim, that Jesus was violent...

[CharlesC]

I was chatting with a retired Pastor about Jesus never committing violence. He claimed, Jesus was not against violence. He claimed Jesus knocked over the money tables in violence. I disputed, that Jesus was right to get angry, because the people were turning his Father's house into a den of thieves. A Godly anger. But he did not hit no one. Well this Pastor said, he authorized his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords. I said, yes, but this was to fulfill a prophesy in Isaiah 53. That the disciples had 2 swords already and Jesus said, Enough...

I think, many Americans, feel justified by owning guns, due to Jesus authorizing his disciples to buy swords. But Jesus was just fulfilling a prophesy. If Jesus had planned on a rebellion, well Jesus would not have said, 2 swords is enough. He would not have rebuked Peter, for protecting Him. This was clear, that Jesus had a different mindset for those 2 swords. So a lot of gun activitist use this to justify buying guns to protect oneself and others. But Jesus spoke on peace and so I think, these gun activist are using Jesus statement in a wrong way.

It is our Constitutional right to bear arms. But what does Jesus really think of this issue? We are not an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth world, anymore. We are to love our enemies and pray for them that persecute us. Go the extra mile. If you live by the sword you will die by the sword. Sounds like if you live by a weapon you will die by a weapon.

What are you thoughts...Thank you

 

[Butterfly]

Can I ask where it says about the disciples selling their things to buy sword, cannot say I have ever noticed it !?
The gun issue is something you will always have differing views on, they protect but also destroy. People have a right to protect, and you could argue that it's wise to be prepared. It's part of your culture now. I do not think it is unchristian to protect or defend yourself if you are under attack. Now whether that justifies having guns , I am not sure
I am not in a country that allows guns to be freely owned. As a Christian I still have the right to fight back and defend myself if I was under attack, so I would not think twice about grabbing a knife or hitting someone with a heavy object. However, I do not have the right to just go up and hit or stab someone.
The situation with Jesus and the guards, not sure you can use that as a argument because Jesus knew what was to follow, he did not fight back, and rebuked Peter, because it all needed to happen.

Every generation has its own defences against others, if you do not believe it is right to defend, then what about the army, navy
What about nuclear weapons ect
Whether we are Christian or not we are all human and all have human fears , there will always be a need to ' be prepared ' depending on what each generation and culture brings in.
I would not want to own a gun
Butterfly

 

[CharlesC]

Can I ask where it says about the disciples selling their things to buy sword, cannot say I have ever noticed it !?
The gun issue is something you will always have differing views on, they protect but also destroy. People have a right to protect, and you could argue that it's wise to be prepared. It's part of your culture now. I do not think it is unchristian to protect or defend yourself if you are under attack. Now whether that justifies having guns , I am not sure
I am not in a country that allows guns to be freely owned. As a Christian I still have the right to fight back and defend myself if I was under attack, so I would not think twice about grabbing a knife or hitting someone with a heavy object. However, I do not have the right to just go up and hit or stab someone.
The situation with Jesus and the guards, not sure you can use that as a argument because Jesus knew what was to follow, he did not fight back, and rebuked Peter, because it all needed to happen.

Every generation has its own defences against others, if you do not believe it is right to defend, then what about the army, navy
What about nuclear weapons ect
Whether we are Christian or not we are all human and all have human fears , there will always be a need to ' be prepared ' depending on what each generation and culture brings in.
I would not want to own a gun
Butterfly

Yes, it is in Luke 22:35-38 where the disciples buy swords.

 

[CharlesC]

Yes, it is in Luke 22:35-38 where the disciples buy swords.

The reason, was to fulfill a prophesy in Isaiah 53:12.. It would appear that Jesus was head of a group of rebelous men by claiming he was a transgressor. We all know this was not so.

 

[CharlesC]

The reason, was to fulfill a prophesy in Isaiah 53:12.. It would appear that Jesus was head of a group of rebelous men by claiming he was a transgressor. We all know this was not so.

Also in Isaiah 53:9 is claims Jesus had done no violence.

The reason, was to fulfill a prophesy in Isaiah 53:12.. It would appear that Jesus was head of a group of rebelous men by claiming he was a transgressor. We all know this was not so.

 

[CharlesC]

See, Jesus had to fulfill every prophesy about himself. Christians claim Jesus was violent too. But Isaiah 53:9 claims he had done no violence. I know we as Christians are to be Christ like. Immitate Christ. None of the Apostles went out in a blaze of glory, killing their enemies neither. There must be a reason for this. Paul was beheaded, Peter crucified upside down, ect. So the Apostles were for no violent means neither. Paul claimed our weapons were spiritual not real. Put on the full armor of God. The breast plate will stop arrow from penetrating one. Ect. So when we read this, we get the indication of non violent ways to defend ourselves.

 

[CharlesC]

The Army, Navy, ect. is the government. God ordained the government to be in place. So police officers are doing their sworn duty, to uphold the laws of the land. When soldiers go off to fight wars, the governments are involved in them. God ordains them and we must do as our governments say. Too go against the government is to go against God. Believe Paul wrote something about this too.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Was Jesus violent?
When he had cause to be. When he cleared the temple forecourt of traders etc he had made a whip and single handed cleared that area.
The temple guards the stall holders and money changers, who were all loosing money/property could not stop him.

I think His holy anger was such that no one could face him, but the l;anguage used is of violence, drove out, overturned etc.

Else where in the accounts of dealing with evil spirits the word 'drove out' occures there is violence in dealing with and overcoming evil spirits.
Paul tell us that none of us have resisided temptation to the point of sheding blood.

 

[CharlesC]

Was Jesus violent?
When he had cause to be. When he cleared the temple forecourt of traders etc he had made a whip and single handed cleared that area.
The temple guards the stall holders and money changers, who were all loosing money/property could not stop him.

I think His holy anger was such that no one could face him, but the l;anguage used is of violence, drove out, overturned etc.

Else where in the accounts of dealing with evil spirits the word 'drove out' occures there is violence in dealing with and overcoming evil spirits.
Paul tell us that none of us have resisided temptation to the point of sheding blood.

So how do we say Jesus was violent but in Isaiah 53:9 it says "he had done no violence" referring to the coming Messiah ...Jesus.

 

[Windmillcharge]

So how do we say Jesus was violent but in Isaiah 53:9 it says "he had done no violence" referring to the coming Messiah ...Jesus.

In that he did not sin.

 

[Butterfly]

Thanks for the gospel link about the sword, you know I have never noticed the bit about the sword before , how strange is that, only been a Christian 40 years !! Lol
Butterfly

 

[Butterfly]

Perhaps you need to look at this from a slightly different prospective and ask a different question.
' would Jesus do something that would lead one of the disciples into sin '
Wasn't it Jesus himself that encouraged them to buy a sword in the first place?
So, surely, it must have been perfectly okay for them to carry a weapon.
Why would he encourage them to buy one if it was wrong for them to ever use it........
Butterfly

 

[CharlesC]

Yes, it is odd. Why were only two swords enough. Surely, they needed more swords, to fight off the soldiers, if meant to defend Jesus? Why did all the Apostles die, a death similar to Jesus, without using a sword to take out the enemy? You know, since they witnessed Jesus being crucified, well would not have it seemed more right, since they could have a sword, to use the sword in defense. But that did not occur. John was the only Apostle to live out his life, but Jesus told Mary, Behold, this is your son. Meaning John was to look after Mary( Jesus mother). If Jesus meant for the disciples to buy swords as to make himself look like a transgressor, which it states Jesus needed to fulfill prophesy, well this, Two is enough, makes logical sense. The swords were never really meant for combat. I looked up how the apostles died. Not one went out in a blaze of glory, taking the enemy with them. So it does make one wonder? I was going to find out, if they even carried a sword, after Jesus said, Live by the sword you will die by the sword. We know Jesus had to be crucified. It was foretold.

 

[Butterfly]

I have just read the post in Luke , the disciples already had swords , before he mentioned ' those who have purses go and buy one ' so it wasn't Jesus that actually told the disciples to arm themselves, they had two swords already. That relays that not every one of the 12 had them - and , considering how young they were and the fact that they thought he was going to lead a rebellion and over throw the Romans, it may be that a few of them chose to be prepared. Also the comment is a general one ' let he who has a purse, go buy a sword ' he was making a comment, not giving an order.
I actually think Jesus is talking on one level, but the disciples are hearing him on another.
Could this be more about letting the battle commence kind of comment from Jesus- he knew the time was upon him and the real battle, the one for the cross was about to begin- was he actually saying ' it's time to fight ' ........... The disciples thought he meant physically, hence the comment that they had already started to prepare, they had two swords. When he said ' that's enough' I would think they were quite surprised. They were about to discover that Jesus's way was not what they thought!
I need to look up the quote from Isaiah - when I read it yesterday I was not totally sure I saw where it fitted in ...... Also I believe Jesus is talking generally about fulfilling prophecy, the cross and all he suffered was foretold in Isaiah , it was time to bring it into fulfillment( all of it ) In essence ' this is the reason I came '"........... the disciples needed to know that as their world was about to come crashing down.
Jesus ways are not our ways, and as we are to follow Jesus maybe there is a point about having guns in all this, the disciples did not understand the real battle, they only knew of worldly battles. The guns are part of the worlds way of dealing with fear / people / situations.........have to ponder that myself
Butterfly

 

[Butterfly]

Ok , so I looked up the Isaiah quote. Have to be honest and say that I read it as describing the crucifixion - he would have surely been ' counted ' as a transgressor for simply dying that way.
So, I still think Jesus is talking about all that would be taking place.
By the way, its been really interesting to look at the passages, so thanks for posting about it x
Butterfly

 

[CharlesC]

I guess, I just don't like the fact that the Bible justifies guns. The gun activist say, One lays down their life for their friends, as if Jesus meant it in that way. Jesus proved how he laid down his life for his friends, by going to the cross. How they twist his words, to justify their actions for a violent outcome. Most likely, a terrorist will never enter our church. But if one did, the scenario would play out perhaps differently than they expected. A man would enter the church and firing on innocent Christians. Maybe 6 would be shot before the Christians realized what was occurring. Then the Christians with guns would pull out their guns, but be so nervous, that they shoot and miss the terrorist and accidently shoot more innocent Christians near by. They finally hit and kill the terrorist and get a heroes welcome from church members. The police come and investigate the dead. They discover 4 dead Christians were shot by the two Christians by accident. They still have to pay for the death of 4 innocent Christians. They go to jail for man slaughter.

See, these gun toting Christians don't all have the right mindset. I talked with one of them. He said, I will be ready for one of them terrorist if they come to our church. Packing heat for heat. I see it as eye for an eye mindset. I don't believe Jesus was for this type of mindset. The Christian used other words to describe the terrorist in not kind words. There is not much known of the deaths of the 12 apostles. But they were all martryed. Does not say if they continued to carry swords after Jesus was crucified. Their deaths indicated they were unarmed. But that is not good enough to prove this, since indication is assuming. Jesus was not armed with a sword. Some of us wish to be like Jesus and some wish to be like the Apostles, I imagine. The Bible says, be Christ like. Not Paul or Peter like.

 

[Butterfly]

I think this is an a motive issue, as many issues these days are. I simply do not think you will ever get all Christians agreeing on this issue, I am kind of glad that I don't live in the USA ( sorry )
I understand that they also want more guns in the schools - the same scenario could come about.
I honestly think that the whole issue of terrorism has given Satan a foothold with people's fears, it has over here in many respects - but the reality is that if someone wants to cause harm they will find a way.
I just get so saddened at how there are so many young people getting hold of guns and using them in the schools over there- often it is revenge for something.
Self defence is one thing, revenge and hatred is quite another.
Butterfly

 

[amadeus]

Whether we are Christian or not we are all human and all have human fears , there will always be a need to ' be prepared ' depending on what each generation and culture brings in.
I would not want to own a gun
Butterfly

Although I learned to shoot a rifle and a machine gun while on active duty the U.S. Army, I never have owned a gun. The only real weapon I ever owned was a bow and arrow. After killing one rabbit, I realized I did not want to do it again and got rid of it.

I have never been tempted to own another of man's weapons. I understand why some would, but I still am not and would not choose to be among them.

 

[quietthinker]

he authorized his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords.

If we ask, why would he want them to buy swords? we might be hard pressed to find an answer given he also said he who uses the sword will die by the sword. But, if we see his words as a figure of speech it becomes clearer to understand. The Word of God is spoken of as a sword in many places. A cloak a method of concealment. They were to buy or ingest Gods Word as their defence and sell or get rid of methods of concealment. They were to be straight shooters and transparent remembering that Gods Word is with power. He spoke and created. The Gospel is Gods Word of Life. It is double edged dividing the bone from the marrow so to speak.

 

[Philip James]

Perhaps He had them buy swords to show that it is not sinful to defend yourselves against evil men, but , as others here pointed out, 'if you live by the sword you die by the sword'
And so He showed us a better way, a way that changes hearts much more powerfully than words... Love your enemies and forgive them... Even while they abuse you and kill you...

Peace!