WW3: What Should/Will It Look Like?

[Earburner]

Sounds like "half way" theology to me. Saved Christians do die the first death but will not die the second death. We have the promise of eternal life but do not possess it while we are mortal because corruption and incorruption do not exist in us at the same time. It is written that it is sown in corruption, but raised in incorruption.



Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

"to come" means NOT NOW

Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

In the regeneration, or the next world, shall we INHERIT everlasting life. We do not receive it now!

Your Premil doctrine is turning you into a "scoffer", causing you to laugh at the truth of God's teachings by His Holy Spirit, thereby trading it off for "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor.2:5.

Could it be that you have forgotten the following scripture, or is it that you are being decieved by your current form of doctrine, that is leading you astray?
1 John 5
[11] And this is the record, that God HATH given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that HATH the Son HATH life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that YE HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[ewq1938]

Your Premil doctrine is turning you into a "scoffer", causing you to laugh at the truth of God's teachings by His Holy Spirit, thereby trading it off for "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor.2:5.

Could it be that you have forgotten the following scripture, or is it that you are being decieved by your current form of doctrine, that is leading you astray?
1 John 5
[11] And this is the record, that God HATH given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that HATH the Son HATH life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that YE HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

This isn't a Premill or Amill issue, why try to make it into one? This has nothing to do with either doctrine.

Instead of ignoring all the scriptures I posted, taking all together means 1 John is talking about receiving the PROMISE of eternal life now, not eternal life defacto now.

 

[Earburner]

All the stars will be on the earth during Jacob's trouble. When they return it will be a different arrangement. They don't have to return to their original locations.

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

"The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

During this time of trouble and no lights from the stars, the heavenly host will have come to the earth to gather the final harvest.

Prior to the Flood, the earth was not divided. The continents were divided because of the Flood, and further divided at the time of the Tower of Babel. At the Second Coming that division will be reversed. There was a new heaven and earth because of the Flood. Going back to the original form will be a new heaven and earth after the Second Coming.

The difference is that water was used for the Flood. Fire will be used at the Second Coming. Water destroyed all that had been accomplished up until they entered the ark. Now all the human accomplishment will be destroyed by fire at the point of the Second Coming.

The part of creation from God, the trees, plants, animals, and even water, may or may not be affected. But God's part will be restored by the time the Day of the Lord starts and Satan is bound.

Do not be decieved! The "lake of fire" will be on a global scale, involving every inch of the whole earth. It will be ignited by the Presence of Eternal fire, being that of God the Father Himself, who dwells within Jesus, albeit God, who is a consuming fire.
KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Peter 3:10; Heb. 12:29

 

[Earburner]

This isn't a Premill or Amill issue, why try to make it into one? This has nothing to do with either doctrine.

Instead of ignoring all the scriptures I posted, taking all together means 1 John is talking about receiving the PROMISE of eternal life now, not eternal life defacto now.

It most surely is!!
The differences of understanding, concerning that which "is AS a 1000 years", are miles apart.
Amil- the 1000 years is an undisclosed figurative amount of time, applied to God's Age of Grace and His longsuffering, as being NOW, ever since Jesus' death, resurrection and through Pentecost onward, until He visibly and Gloriously returns in the air, our atmosphere, to recieve His own.

Premil- the 1000 years is a literal amount of time, applied  AFTER the visible and Glorious return of Jesus, whereby the Eternal presence of the KoG will come down to be on the earth, to dwell among the mortality of REMAINING men, who ALL had taken the "MoB".

You are promoting a false belief and a false hope of "church-ianity", that is fabricated by "the wisdom of men" (1 Cor. 2:5), through the false premise that no one who is a "born again Christian" has the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, Who is the very vehicle of ETERNAL Life.
Rom. 8:8-11; 1 John 5:11-13.

Please hear the words of Rom. 8
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[Timtofly]

Do not be decieved! The "lake of fire" will be on a global scale, involving every inch of the whole earth. It will be ignited by the Presence of Eternal fire, being that of God the Father Himself, who dwells within Jesus, albeit God, who is a consuming fire.
KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Peter 3:10; Heb. 12:29

Science claims the sun is a LOF that would hold 1.3 million earths. You can have a LOF near the earth without it being the earth obviously.

God's Word states the sun is just a light in the sky. The sun is not the LOF. What humans claim is the universe, does not exist. God says that the LOF will exist, that will be an addition to the firmament already above the earth.

It is formed when the fire from God burns up all of man's works from the earth. We got the Oceans when Noah's Flood happened. We will get the LOF when God's cleansing fire happens at the Second Coming. All the same verses you listed declare that.

 

[Earburner]

Science claims the sun is a LOF that would hold 1.3 million earths. You can have a LOF near the earth without it being the earth obviously.

God's Word states the sun is just a light in the sky. The sun is not the LOF. What humans claim is the universe, does not exist. God says that the LOF will exist, that will be an addition to the firmament already above the earth.

It is formed when the fire from God burns up all of man's works from the earth. We got the Oceans when Noah's Flood happened. We will get the LOF when God's cleansing fire happens at the Second Coming. All the same verses you listed declare that.

Yes! So, let's squarely place who the origin is of Eternal fire, in perspective with the NT scriptures. It is Jesus Himself IN the AIR, the atmosphere.
Luke 17:28-32; Thes. 2:7-8; 2 Peter 3:7, 12

 

[ewq1938]

Yes! So, let's squarely place who the origin is of Eternal fire, in perspective with the NT scriptures. It is Jesus Himself IN the AIR, the atmosphere.
Luke 17:28-32; Thes. 2:7-8; 2 Peter 3:7, 12

It's actually lightning not regular "fire" like when wood is on fire.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

G5395
f??´?
phlox
flox
From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G4442
p???
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.


In flaming fire is regarding how Christ returns not how the unsaved are killed. Flaming means a flash which means the fire is specifically lightning. So, Christ comes in a flash of lightning to arrive and take vengeance (the sword of his mouth Rev 19) on the unsaved and that shouldn't be surprising because we were told that by Christ:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



This denotes the speed of his return like a flash of lightning. It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved to kill them. To think that is to misread the verses.


Just read Rev 19 where the battle is described and you will see ZERO fire or lightning used to kill anyone.

To sum up what we know:

2Th 1:7-8

And to you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels In A FLASH OF LIGHTNING
taking vengeance (with a sword according to Revelation 19) on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Earburner]

It's actually lightning not regular "fire" like when wood is on fire.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

G5395
f??´?
phlox
flox
From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G4442
p???
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.


In flaming fire is regarding how Christ returns not how the unsaved are killed. Flaming means a flash which means the fire is specifically lightning. So, Christ comes in a flash of lightning to arrive and take vengeance (the sword of his mouth Rev 19) on the unsaved and that shouldn't be surprising because we were told that by Christ:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



This denotes the speed of his return like a flash of lightning. It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved to kill them. To think that is to misread the verses.


Just read Rev 19 where the battle is described and you will see ZERO fire or lightning used to kill anyone.

To sum up what we know:

2Th 1:7-8

And to you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels In A FLASH OF LIGHTNING
taking vengeance (with a sword according to Revelation 19) on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

Textus Receptus Greek: 2 Thes. 1:8.
ἐν πυρὶ φλογός διδόντος ἐκδίκησιν τοῖς μὴ εἰδόσιν θεὸν καὶ τοῖς μὴ ὑπακούουσιν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ
Eng. Translation:
in a fiery flame giving vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

King James Bible
"Flaming"- Strongs #G5395
LSJ Gloss: φλόξ a flame
Dodson: φλόξ a flame.
Strong's: φλόξ a blaze

"Fire"- Strongs #G4442
LSJ Gloss: πῦρ fire
Dodson: πῦρ fire, trialsfire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
Strong's: πῦρ "fire" (literally or figuratively, specially, lightning)
Derivation: a primary word;
KJV Usage:
fiery, fire.

> ewq 1938 wrote:
"It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved to kill them. To think that is to misread the verses."

> Earburner's reply:
Really?? Please read the verbs of action:
"In flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE....."

Sorry, but the more you try to prove the Premil theory, the more you look like a "scoffer".

 

[ewq1938]

G5395
f??´?
phlox
flox
From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G4442
p???
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.



Jesus comes IN a flash of lightning in how he returns, not shooting lightning out of his mouth to kill people.

 

[Earburner]

I'm not going to respond to someone's post with such insults. The use of insults is evidence that your position is wrong, so you lash out.

(Ref. my post #190)
No! All I am doing is showing that we are to stay focused on the words in context, and to just follow through with it. The verbs of action explain the results.

You disagree with the plain English, by saying that no one is killed/destroyed by Jesus upon His Glorious return from Heaven, which is to deny the written words, that WE BOTH DO SEE.

 

[ewq1938]

(Ref. my post #190)
No! All I am doing is showing that we are to stay focused on the words in context, and to just follow through with it. The verbs of action explain the results.

You disagree with the plain English, by saying that no one is killed/destroyed by Jesus upon His Glorious return from Heaven, which is to deny the written words, that WE BOTH DO SEE.

You are showing that you haven't studied the passage in Greek:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verb is in the present tense in the Greek manuscripts so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the being punished with everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

https://biblehub. com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

You can verify in the link above that the verb tisousin is in the future tense: verb tense: future indicative active.

Amill will AVOID this fact as much as possible because it destroys the false teachings it espouses!

 

[Earburner]

You are showing that you haven't studied the passage in Greek:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verb is in the present tense in the Greek manuscripts so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the being punished with everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

https://biblehub. com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

You can verify in the link above that the verb tisousin is in the future tense: verb tense: future indicative active.

Amill will AVOID this fact as much as possible because it destroys the false teachings it espouses!

I am not here to offend anyone, but rather to seek the Lord's truth. I don't profess to be skilled in the Greek language, so therefore I am only comparing at best.

The difference between Amil and Premil is the methodology of study and discernment.
Amil uses the parables and prophecies in the gospels and the epistles to discern Revelation.
Premil uses Revelation to discern the parables and prophecies in the gospels and the epistles.

However, through the Holy Spirit of God within me, I have learned how to "search [now all] the scriptures, that testify of Jesus", and therefore I understand the three manifestations of Jesus, whereby the OT prophets had no clue at all, in which of Jesus' three manifestations, that their prophecies would be fulfilled in. But now, by the Lord's Holy Spirit, we can know!!
Unfortunately church-ianity hasn't the foggiest clue of what I am saying.
1. Jesus CAME to us in mortal flesh.
2. Jesus IS COMING to us by His Spirit.
3. Jesus SHALL COME AGAIN from heaven in His Immortality.
All of biblical prophecy speaks to His three manifestations. "Search the scriptures....they testify of me".

The consternation that hinders both views, is by those whose faith stands in "the wisdom of men", and not that of the Holy Spirit of God. 1 Cor. 2:5.
So then, where once I was a staunch Pre-millennialist, I am now, by the Lord's doing, an A-millennialist, but that of a hybrid form, as the Lord so leads and guides me.
Unfortunately, both doctrines are not derived by you and I, but rather through the quagmire of "the wisdom of men" in church-ianity, of which promotes the two traditional views throughout the world, for Christians to believe through.

In all actuality, I am no longer bound by either of those "traditional" views, but I do tend to lean more to Amil., being of that in a hybrid form. Not because of a "popularity contest" of "who is on the Lord's side", but rather "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection", so says Paul. In that I stand, by the power of His Holy Spirit within me, of which I am rewarded continually, as I learn and grow in the knowledge of Him, which is endless!

Thanks for listening!
Earburner.

 

[ewq1938]

I am not here to offend anyone, but rather to seek the Lord's truth. I don't profess to be skilled in the Greek language, so therefore I am only comparing at best.

You will always be at a disadvantage until you start learning more about Greek. What I presented is accurate, and shows how some thing happen with some events and other events happen in the future.

The difference between Amil and Premil is the methodology of study and discernment.
Amil uses the parables and prophecies in the gospels and the epistles to discern Revelation.
Premil uses Revelation to discern the parables and prophecies in the gospels and the epistles.

But that isn't true because I just showed you how verb tenses show Amill's misinterpretation of a non-Rev passage. Premill uses all while Amill usually avoids Rev.

In all actuality, I am no longer bound by either of those "traditional" views, but I do tend to lean more to Amil., being of that in a hybrid form.

Well, that's better than those who bind themselves solely to Amill. I am solidly Premill because I find it supported properly but I have some things in common with Amills (not really Amill/Premill issues) like I deny any animal sacrifices or OT sin sacrifices in the Mill (errant Ezekiel 40+ interpretation) and that true Israel is now Christians, and I don't find support for national Israel (Jews) suddenly all accepting Jesus in the end times.

 

[Earburner]

You are showing that you haven't studied the passage in Greek:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

90%+/- of Christians don't know Greek at all.
Are they, who have the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, IGNORANT in their OWN languages??
Absolutely not!!
In the TR Greek, the Eng. Tran. is: IN flaming fire "giving vengeance to them that know not God...."

Mer. Web. dictionary:

vengeance​

noun​

ven·geance ˈven-jən(t)s

Synonyms of vengeance
: punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense : RETRIBUTION

retribution​

noun​

ret·ri·bu·tion ˌre-trə-ˈbyü-shən

Synonyms of retribution

: RECOMPENSE, REWARD

: the dispensing or receiving of reward or punishment especially in the hereafter

: something given or exacted in recompense
especially : PUNISHMENT

Sorry, the Amil view and understanding of 2 Thes. 1:8 is correct!!
The vengeance, retribution and/or punishment is IN/BY the [Eternal] flaming fire of Jesus' SUDDEN and VISIBLE presence.

It may be that you have percieved the Premil view and understanding through "the wisdom of men", as opposed to the 90% of saved Christians, who are ignorant in Greek, but DO HEAR the Holy Spirit's teaching.

 

[Earburner]

You will always be at a disadvantage until you start learning more about Greek. What I presented is accurate, and shows how some thing happen with some events and other events happen in the future.




But that isn't true because I just showed you how verb tenses show Amill's misinterpretation of a non-Rev passage. Premill uses all while Amill usually avoids Rev.






Well, that's better than those who bind themselves solely to Amill. I am solidly Premill because I find it supported properly but I have some things in common with Amills (not really Amill/Premill issues) like I deny any animal sacrifices or OT sin sacrifices in the Mill (errant Ezekiel 40+ interpretation) and that true Israel is now Christians, and I don't find support for national Israel (Jews) suddenly all accepting Jesus in the end times.

As you continue studying by "the [literal] mind of Christ within you" (His Holy Spirit), you will be shown other topics that you firmly hold to that are also false, such as who the 144,000 really are, and so also for who the Two witnesses [anointed ones] were.

Many believe that Revelation is all future, when it is NOT.
The whole mind of God thinks in the past, present and future, all at the same time.

God gave to Jesus the words of Rev., who in turn gave God's words to the angel, who then gave them to John.

From the Mind of God the Father, came the book of Rev., having God's understanding of past, present snd future, all at the same time, and therefore is not to be read chronologically only.

 

[ewq1938]

90%+/- of Christians don't know Greek at all.
Are they, who have the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, IGNORANT in their OWN languages??
Absolutely not!!
In the TR Greek, the Eng. Tran. is: IN flaming fire "giving vengeance to them that know not God...."

Yes IN but you are reading it as if it says WITH. He doesn't shoot fire out to kill people He arrives in fire himself, and that is lightning as other scripture affirms. It's the method and quickness and brightness of his travel and arrival, not a weapon. Can you see and admit that or will you ignore it and change the subject?

 

[Earburner]

Yes IN but you are reading it as if it says WITH. He doesn't shoot fire out to kill people He arrives in fire himself, and that is lightning as other scripture affirms. It's the method and quickness and brightness of his travel and arrival, not a weapon. Can you see and admit that or will you ignore it and change the subject?

As a Premil believer, you are not ready for the following statement:
To usward, Jesus Himself is THE house (dwelling place) of God's very Being.
He Himself is the "Father's house", and we who are born again of God's Holy Spirit, are the "many mansions".

On the Day of Jesus' Glorious return from Heaven, God the Father who is within Jesus, will be with him.
Heb. 12:22-29
[29] For our God is a consuming (G2654) fire (G4442)

 

[ewq1938]

As a Premil believer, you are not ready for the following statement:
To usward, Jesus Himself is THE house (dwelling place) of God's very Being.
He Himself is the "Father's house", and we who are born again of God's Holy Spirit, are the "many mansions".

On the Day of Jesus' Glorious return from Heaven, God the Father who is within Jesus, will be with him.
Heb. 12:22-29
[29] For our God is a consuming (G2654) fire (G4442)

The Father remains in heaven while Jesus returns to the Earth. Same thing during the first coming. God's the Father's fire is not used during the second coming but until after the Millennium during satan's little season at the city of Jerusalem.

 

[Earburner]

The Father remains in heaven while Jesus returns to the Earth. Same thing during the first coming. God's the Father's fire is not used during the second coming but until after the Millennium during satan's little season at the city of Jerusalem.

Like I said, you as a believer (with the Premil filter), you are not yet ready to hear or understand that Jesus Himself is "His Father's house".
John 14
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So then, for a little clarity, let's hear what Jesus says about His Father and Himself:
John 10
[30] I and my Father are one.

John 14
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

[ewq1938]

Like I said, you as a believer (with the Premil filter), you are not yet ready to hear or understand that Jesus Himself is "His Father's house".

You are using red herring fallacies to avoid the topic, and change to something unrelated and non-Trinitarian.