WW3: What Should/Will It Look Like?

[Earburner]

It is you who is confused and deceived. Jesus does not Return in fire. The corpses after Armageddon are not burned up.
2 Thess 1:6-10 does not describe the glorious Return, but an event before that. Namely; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fir from the sun.
Proved by how Jesus is revealed to His own people, as He stands on Mt Zion, Revelation 14:1

I strongly disagree.
KJV Rev. 14:1-5 is the Mount Zion of Heavenly Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem, aka the "daughter of Zion".

We are looking at the symbolic 144,000 of OC. Israel, those who were waiting in faith of "the Promise to come". (Key words to compare in the gospels: "no guile".)
Who was Nathaniel? John 1
[47] Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

At the time of Jesus' resurrection, they all who had been waiting in faith, but had for a long time been dead, are shown "under the altar" in Rev. 6:9-11 receiving the permanency of the "Promise of God's Holy Spirit". Prior to then, the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39. So then, before that day of Jesus' glorification, the best that God could do for those of faith under the OC., was to keep their names written in a "book of remembrance" before Him. Malachi 3:16. Today, they are now in the Book of Life.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you know why there will appear to be no light from the sun or moon?

It's not what you say it is. There is no "appear to be". It WILL BE dark because the sun will be darkened, not out-brightened by a brighter light source. The sun won't be shining at all.

Joe_2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Act_2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Rev_6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Matthew 24:29 Immediately ***after the tribulation*** of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Zephaniah 1:14
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zephaniah 1:15
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,


Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


Joe_2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Joe_3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.


Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amos 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Amos 8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


It was dark during the day when Christ died, and it shall be dark again when he returns.

 

[Earburner]

Matthew 24:29 Immediately ***after the tribulation*** of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then we should compare your quotes above to 2 Peter 3:10-13, for the whole picture of which describes the darkness just before the Lord is revealed/manifested from heaven.

[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise [no light], and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements [earth] shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We should conclude that the physical heavens/constellations will be dissolved and thereore no light shall come from them anymore, but then immediately shall the LORD Jesus be seen coming from the throne of God's Heaven.

We should be reminded of the three disciples and what they witnessed of the Lord's Transfiguration before them.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Then we should compare your quotes above to 2 Peter 3:10-13, for the whole picture of which describes the darkness just before the Lord is revealed/manifested from heaven.

[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise [no light], and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements [earth] shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We should conclude that the physical heavens/constellations will be dissolved and thereore no light shall come from them anymore, but then immediately shall the LORD Jesus be seen coming from the throne of God's Heaven.

We should be reminded of the three disciples and what they witnessed of the Lord's Transfiguration before them.

2 Peter 3:10 event happens after the Millennial Kingdom.
144k is not symbolic. Specific names of tribes and people are never used in parables or symbolism.
People will survive the Great Tribulation/ Second Coming of Christ in wrath. Those with the mark of the Beast will not. Those with the mark of God will be translated. But at that moment, there will be many who are alive who did not take the mark, maybe who were on the fence with Christ, but now that they have seen Him come in the clouds ( as the angels said He would when He ascended), then they will believe. This includes a remnant Jewish population, many of whom will be protected, survive.
Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. DANIEL 12:12
"So, the ungodly will not survive, but there are some people who will survive the holocaust of God’s wrath. They’ll live through the sixth seal. They’ll live through the trumpet judgments. They’ll live through the bowl judgments, and they will actually go into the millennial kingdom alive. All of the judgment fury of God will miss them. All of the holocausts that are going on in the natural world around them will not touch them. They will also be protected from the murderous efforts of Antichrist and the rest of the world that aligns with him to wipe out the Jews and the Christians. They’ll survive it all: the wars, the famines, the earthquakes, the plagues. They’ll survive it all, every bit of it. They will survive rampant sinfulness running amok on the earth as the Restrainer – the Holy Spirit – let’s go and sin runs its course. They’ll survive the belching out of hell of previously bound demons who will increase the demon force on the earth. They will survive the terror of Antichrist who rules the world and sets himself up as the only God to be worshiped. They will survive his blaspheming, his murderous intent. They will survive all of his enterprise, this man who has desecrated the temple, set himself up as God, committed an abomination there. They’ll survive it all, and they’ll go right on into the kingdom." John MacArthur.
Then He goes on and identifies the survivors 144k. Not only these, but a remnant that is put through the fire, tested in Romans 11. And also those throughout all the nations who believed after the Church was taken up.

 

[Timtofly]

We should conclude that the physical heavens/constellations will be dissolved and thereore no light shall come from them anymore, but then immediately shall the LORD Jesus be seen coming from the throne of God's Heaven.

All the stars will be on the earth during Jacob's trouble. When they return it will be a different arrangement. They don't have to return to their original locations.

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

"The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

During this time of trouble and no lights from the stars, the heavenly host will have come to the earth to gather the final harvest.

Prior to the Flood, the earth was not divided. The continents were divided because of the Flood, and further divided at the time of the Tower of Babel. At the Second Coming that division will be reversed. There was a new heaven and earth because of the Flood. Going back to the original form will be a new heaven and earth after the Second Coming.

The difference is that water was used for the Flood. Fire will be used at the Second Coming. Water destroyed all that had been accomplished up until they entered the ark. Now all the human accomplishment will be destroyed by fire at the point of the Second Coming.

The part of creation from God, the trees, plants, animals, and even water, may or may not be affected. But God's part will be restored by the time the Day of the Lord starts and Satan is bound.

 

[ewq1938]

Then we should compare your quotes above to 2 Peter 3:10-13, for the whole picture of which describes the darkness just before the Lord is revealed/manifested from heaven.

[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

lol...come on. Everyone knows this has nothing to do with darkness but means it will come as a surprise.

in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise [no light],

How is there no light when fire is burning everything? Obviously the fiery destruction of the OHOE is not a dark time.

and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements [earth] shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

And we know from Rev 20-21 that the NHNE happens AFTER the second coming, not the day of the coming. The Earth is still the same old Earth after the second coming is completed and that is true even in Amill which has the coming before the GWTJ and LOF punishment. Amill would have to move their second coming to AFTER the GWTJ/LOF to make it line up with their view of 2 Peter 3:10-13.

We should conclude that the physical heavens/constellations will be dissolved and thereore no light shall come from them anymore, but then immediately shall the LORD Jesus be seen coming from the throne of God's Heaven.

Because the NHNE takes a long time to occur after the old are destroyed? No, it's instant, so how could any darkness occur at all? See, you are making mistakes because you are trying to force two different events into one event and that doesn't work.

 

[Earburner]

lol...come on. Everyone knows this has nothing to do with darkness but means it will come as a surprise.




How is there no light when fire is burning everything? Obviously the fiery destruction of the OHOE is not a dark time.




And we know from Rev 20-21 that the NHNE happens AFTER the second coming, not the day of the coming. The Earth is still the same old Earth after the second coming is completed and that is true even in Amill which has the coming before the GWTJ and LOF punishment. Amill would have to move their second coming to AFTER the GWTJ/LOF to make it line up with their view of 2 Peter 3:10-13.




Because the NHNE takes a long time to occur after the old are destroyed? No, it's instant, so how could any darkness occur at all? See, you are making mistakes because you are trying to force two different events into one event and that doesn't work.

Where do I disagree? I was only following after the pattern of your thinking in regards to darkness. Showing that the only Light in the NHNE is going to be God the Father and God the Son.

KJV 2 Peter 3:10-13 is 2 Thes. 1:7-10, as described by Jesus in Luke 17:28-32, all taking place simultaneously in the twinkling of an eye, in the same 24 hour day.
Rev. 21
[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
[23] And the city [of glorified people] had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Maybe now you can understand not what, but rather, who the NEW "EARTH" really is:
2 Cor. 4
[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in [through] the face [person] of Jesus Christ.

[7] But we have this treasure [God's presence] in [our] earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[ewq1938]

Where do I disagree? I was only following after the pattern of your thinking in regards to darkness. Showing that the only Light in the NHNE is going to be God the Father and God the Son.

The sun will still exist. The city doesn't need the sun because of their light, not that the sun doesn't exist.

KJV 2 Peter 3:10-13 is 2 Thes. 1:7-10, as described by Jesus in Luke 17:28-32, all taking place simultaneously in the twinkling of an eye, in the same 24 hour day.
Rev. 21
[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
[23] And the city [of glorified people] had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Maybe now you can understand not what, but rather, who the NEW "EARTH" really is:

The Earth isn't a who. It's a planet and will be when it is new.

2 Cor. 4
[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in [through] the face [person] of Jesus Christ.

[7] But we have this treasure [God's presence] in [our] earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Man was made from the Earth. The Earth is not man.

 

[Earburner]

The sun will still exist. The city doesn't need the sun because of their light, not that the sun doesn't exist.




The Earth isn't a who. It's a planet and will be when it is new.







Man was made from the Earth. The Earth is not man.

2 Cor. 4
[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
[7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

2 Peter 3
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Q. Wherein does God and His Righteousness desire to dwell?
A. On a new planet.
B. Within His "new creatures".
> Clue: Luke 17:21

Now, the other question remains: who is the New heavens?
Maybe for yourself you can answer that one to yourself.
> Clue: Rev. 21:23

 

[Earburner]

And we know from Rev 20-21 that the NHNE happens AFTER the second coming, not the day of the coming. The Earth is still the same old Earth after the second coming is completed and that is true even in Amill which has the coming before the GWTJ and LOF punishment. Amill would have to move their second coming to AFTER the GWTJ/LOF to make it line up with their view of 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Yes, I follow the Amil understanding, but I am not railroaded, or stuck in that traditional view, as is the case for those who are holding to the Premil view, of which presents a stumbling stone of offense, in regards to God's longsuffering during His present Age of Grace through faith in Jesus.
In brief, there are no second chances after Jesus' fiery return from heaven, as some falsely believe.

As for the GWTJ, John 3:18 describes it perfectly, while each man has breath during their mortal life.
2 Cor. 5
[10] For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Any person that has not appeared before (comes to) the judgment seat of Christ, and dies without the Holy Spirit of God within them, he is not known of by God, and therefore cannot be remembered by God. As a result, such a person CANNOT be resurrected by God...ever!! Rom. 8:8-9.
The Holy Spirit within us, is the only means by which a person can be resurrected from the dead.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, I follow the Amil understanding, but I am not railroaded, or stuck in that traditional view, as is the case for those who are holding to the Premil view, of which presents a stumbling stone of offense, in regards to God's longsuffering during His present Age of Grace through faith in Jesus.
In brief, there are no second chances after Jesus' fiery return from heaven, as some falsely believe.

It is unscriptural to claim Jesus uses fire to kill at the second coming, and that he kills every mortal human. Both are false. If Amill's Millennium has second chances, so can the Premill Millennium.

As a result, such a person CANNOT be resurrected by God...ever!! Rom. 8:8-9.

I love when humans say what God cannot do.

 

[Earburner]

If Amill's Millennium has second chances, so can the Premill Millennium.

There are NO second chances in the Amil view.

I love when humans say what God cannot do.

What I said in post #170 is True!!
Now, ever since Jesus' resurrection/glorification, He literally can't resurrect anyone who has mortally died without His Holy Spirit within them!!
They remain to be "condemned already", by participating in the judgment of death against Adam, which is eternal death.
KJV John 3:18.

Born again Christians have escaped that death through faith in the blood of Jesus.
As He did say: John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Now go to the repentant thief on the cross.
Is he dead?? No!! He is alive, being "asleep in Jesus". 1 Thes. 4:14

The two judgments of God are:
1. Through Adam- eternal death
2. Through Jesus- eternal life.
There is no literal GWT judgment, as church-ianity wants to perceive and teach it.

Whoever does not appear at the judgment seat of Christ, for the "good" of God's Salvation performed in them, they are left with only the "bad" of themselves, which is condemnation already, and the destruction of their "natural selves".

 

[ewq1938]

There are NO second chances in the Amil view.

No one is being saved in the Amill Mill?

What I said in post #170 is True!!
Now, ever since Jesus' resurrection/glorification, He literally can't resurrect anyone who has mortally died without His Holy Spirit within them!!
They remain to be "condemned already", by participating in the judgment of death against Adam, which is eternal death.
KJV John 3:18.

Again with declaring what God cannot do. That is the worst issue, out of many. The unsaved will be resurrected and they won't have the HS.

 

[Earburner]

It is unscriptural to claim Jesus uses fire to kill at the second coming, and that he kills every mortal human. Both are false. If Amill's Millennium has second chances, so can the Premill Millennium.

Unscriptural?
FALSE!!
How many times must it be quoted for you to HEAR it?
KJV Luke 17:28-32
[29] But the  SAME day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day WHEN the Son of man is revealed [from heaven].

KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that [SAME] day.

 

[Earburner]

No one is being saved in the Amill Mill?





Again with declaring what God cannot do. That is the worst issue, out of many. The unsaved will be resurrected and they won't have the HS.

> That's a very wrong question, for attempting to achieve a wrong conclusion.

> Go look at the verses and the outcome in Rev. 20. Two groups of people were cast into the lake of fire:
1. The UNSAVED dead in their graves, upon Jesus return from Heaven in flaming fire.
2. The UNSAVED who were alive, upon Jesus return from Heaven in flaming fire.
Rev. 20
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [the graves] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[14] And death and hell [the graves,] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was [alive on earth, and was] not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

> Back to John 3:18- all were "condemned ALREADY".
 Why?
John 3:18 "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Why?
2 Thes. 1
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[ewq1938]

Unscriptural?
FALSE!!
How many times must it be quoted for you to HEAR it?
KJV Luke 17:28-32
[29] But the  SAME day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day WHEN the Son of man is revealed.

Why would Sodom need to be burned again? Care to explain that? I see you left out the flood of water part because I guess that doesn't fit well with your fiery second coming eh?

The passage is about Christ returning suddenly in wrath, not killing people with water or fire. We can see that return and wrath in Rev 19, zero water or kill used to kill and who is killed anyways? An army at Armageddon, not anyone else.

 

[Earburner]

No one is being saved in the Amill Mill?





Again with declaring what God cannot do. That is the worst issue, out of many. The unsaved will be resurrected and they won't have the HS.

You are lacking the understanding that born again Christians are now blessed with the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, WHICH IS HIS ETERNAL LIFE within us NOW!!

Though our flesh goes to the grave, we ourselves never die!! However, we are only half way there, because we are still waiting for Jesus' Glorious return, to be made into the likeness of Christ, in His Immortality (to be glorified).

 

[Earburner]

Why would Sodom need to be burned again? Care to explain that? I see you left out the flood of water part because I guess that doesn't fit well with your fiery second coming eh?

The passage is about Christ returning suddenly in wrath, not killing people with water or fire. We can see that return and wrath in Rev 19, zero water or kill used to kill and who is killed anyways? An army at Armageddon, not anyone else.

You are only picking for a vain argument that is contrary to all of what is said in Luke 17:26-32.
Jesus used both Noah and Lot to show the severity that the unsaved will suffer in the SAME DAY that the saints are redeemed.
Don't you know that you are opposing yourself?

 

[ewq1938]

You are only picking for a vain argument that is contrary to all of what is said in Luke 17:26-32.
Jesus used both Noah and Lot to show the severity that the unsaved will suffer in the SAME DAY that the saints are redeemed.
Don't you know that you are opposing yourself?

I'm opposing your false teachings, and use of partial passages. You cite Sodom, but don't Noah because Noah's example has nothing to do with fire. Sodom was a limited destruction by fire so citing it for a global slaughter by fire is something to laugh at.

 

[ewq1938]

However, we are only half way there, because we are still waiting for Jesus' Glorious return, to be made into the likeness of Christ, in His Immortality (to be glorified).

Sounds like "half way" theology to me. Saved Christians do die the first death but will not die the second death. We have the promise of eternal life but do not possess it while we are mortal because corruption and incorruption do not exist in us at the same time. It is written that it is sown in corruption, but raised in incorruption.



Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

"to come" means NOT NOW

Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

In the regeneration, or the next world, shall we INHERIT everlasting life. We do not receive it now!