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Your Church says God Committed Fraud!

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Israelsson, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    How can I communicate with you if you haven't first studied the Old Testament Books as thoroughly as the New Testament Books? I might as well be speaking in the air.

    God's promise to David was that his throne, an earthly throne, would exist to all generations until... Christ comes to inherit it. It is indeed... Christ's inheritance, but our Lord Jesus is not sitting upon it just yet, for it is still on this earth. The Gen.49:10 Scripture is one of several prophecies that confirms that. So I'm not making this up.

    It's men's traditions that believe David's throne is no more on this earth, but in Heaven with our Lord Jesus Christ. They believe it actually ended on earth with Zedekiah, king of Judah, when the king of Babylon took him and his son heirs captive to Babylon where they all died (per Book of Jeremiah). It ended in Jerusalem, but not on earth. And because the traditions of men haven't known where it is, they assumed it is in Heaven with Christ. And of course, that false idea is to help them preach a fake 'rapture' to Heaven, one that is not written in God's Word.

    God gave a riddle to the house of Israel about that throne on earth, which is another prophecy involving God's promise to David that it would exist to all generations until Christ comes. I'm not going to go into that in Ezekiel, nor reveal to you where it's written there. Do your own homework.

    As for God's laws, what Christ did not nail to His cross is still in effect today. No where did Apostle Paul preach that all of God's laws were ended, but instead the condition that those in Christ who walk by The Spirit are thus dead to the law. Paul preached in 1 Timothy 1, 1 Cor.6, and Gal.5 the consequences of the unrighteous in regard to those laws.

    Nowhere in the following does Paul say the law is dead, but that we are dead to the law, if we be in Christ Jesus...

    Rom 7:4-12
    4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to Him Who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
    5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
    6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
    8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
    12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

    Apostle John defined sin in 1 John 3:4 as the "transgression of the law". That is a New Testament Doctrine, not an Old Testament doctrine.

    I Jn 3:4
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    No one can be saved by God's law. We are saved only by God's grace through the blood of Jesus Christ.

    When The Gospel went to the nations in Asia Minor and Europe after Christ's crucifixion, forming the western Christian nations, those Christian founders adopted many of God's laws directly from God's Word to govern their nations and peoples. And that included the American colonies also. This is why the U.S. Supreme Court building in Washington, D.C. has wood carvings of Moses holding the tablets of The Commandments.

    It is liberal Leftism that has been busy destroying this truth about early Christianity among the western Christian nations. By design, their intent is to remove God's laws from among His people and instead institute men's secular laws in their place in order to destroy God's people.
  2. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Thank you for making me laugh. I do appreciate that. :lol:

    Ironically I just finished saying to you that was what you assumed about my familiarity with scripture, on another thread.

    I am not going to respond by going into a big speech recounting my experience and familiarity. You are quite welcome to think what you want. :rolleyes:

    You really believe he is not now sitting on David's throne? Care to discuss just this one point for a few posts?

    What say we narrow our discussion down to just this for a few posts?

    You do put a lot of effort into what you believe. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

    And I am familiar with those things you speak of. You just do not know that.

    I see the same information that you use to support your ideas and I see that information to speak different in ways than what you say it speaks.

    For us to make progress and have our discussions be of value we both need to set aside assuming ignorance about each other.

    And we need to speak to these things you mention one by one.

    I am willing if you are.

    May we begin with zeroing our discussion down to the throne of David?
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    One small seed at a time:

    Where many become confused is that in the OT and the NT Bible the word “Throne” often figuratively signifies a seat of ruling authority (1Kings 2:12; 16:11) or the kingly authority and sovereignty itself (Genesis 41:40; 1Ch 17:14; Psalms 89:44); a reigning government or royal administration (2Samuel 14:9); sovereign control over a territory (2Samuel 3:10); and a position of honor (1Samuel 2:7, 8; 2Ki 25:28).

    The house was said to belong to God as we see at Genesis 41:40. And that is why the throne of David was viewed as belonging to God. David was therefore sitting on God's throne.

    Thus David's throne is not that meaningless piece of physical furniture that our carnal mind sees as a throne, but it was the seat of power by God's blessing.

    God is not concerned about a piece of furniture. When David traveled his throne went with him, though not physically, but in terms of the seat that God blessed him to occupy.
  4. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Interesting to note that David called Jesus 'Lord' as Jesus reveals to us.

    David was king over Israel, and Christ is now king over Israel, that is, all those who are part of God's people. But Christ was already king over David... He was already the King of kings, he is not inferior to David!
  5. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Yes, what we are seeing here is common confusion over the 33 chapter of Jeremiah.

    But one needs to think deeply about Jeremiah 33:26 "Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them."

    And how it relates to this: Ephesians 4:8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

    David's throne enduring forever is of course accomplished in Jesus with the remnant of David's seed that has come into him as the Christ. The man Jesus was declared of the Father to have been given the throne of David. When he was undeservedly killed he took the rights to that seat of authority with him as he ascended on high. And his elect of his church have remained right here on earth being prepared to share that seat with him.

    Even the demons recognized Jesus' right to that throne: Matthew 9:27 "And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us."

    Even people of the nations recognized this about Jesus: Matthew 15:22 "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil."

    The Jewish people recognized it until most became disappointed that Jesus would not immediately throw Rome off of their backs: Mark 11:10 "Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest."

    Luke 1:32 "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:"

    Make no mistake about it, Jesus rules over God's Israel right now and has been since his ascension to the right hand of his Father and his return to his heavenly glory.

    Acts 13:21 "And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
    22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
    23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:"
    Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
    37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption."

    Acts 15:16 "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

    2 Timothy 2:8 "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:"

    Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

    Another thing that also confuses many is Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

    Some see that and think that Jesus is not yet ruling over his people Israel. But he does rule as our king over the true Israel of God and has been ruling over us. Revelation 11:15 is when he takes over the entire world's rule, defeating and ousting these present day kings at Armageddon.
  6. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Amen, Vengle! :)