Thoughting again!....oh no, is that allowed?

[Enoch111]

Angel of the Lord, Theophany, Christophany ... RC Sproul teaches with excellence.

As long as all understand that the term "the Angel of the LORD (YHWH)" applies strictly to Jesus before His incarnation, and definitely not to Michael or any other created angel. The Angel of the LORD identified Himself as I AM, or I AM THAT I AM, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Who also came to them as the Word of the LORD or the Word of God.

 

[BarneyFife]

Another one of those questions is the Sanctuary of ancient Israel; the plans and processes which were given to Moses by God.
Christianity today has stopped at the sacrifice of the lamb yet the symbolism goes on way beyond the lamb slain. Have you ever wondered why there is no or limited curiosity about this?

This halting at the altar of burnt offering is interesting given that Christ is called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," and not "at the end of the world," eh?

Okay, so Jesus is Michael ... you are a Jehovah Witness?
Wrong.
There are only 5 references to Michael in the entire Bible. The entire Bible is about Jesus. Michael is His archangel. When Jesus returns, He will. Come with His angels and with the Archangel, who blows the trumpet. He is greater than the angels, says His Father im Hebrews 1.

You're a little late to the game, RDB.

Do you deny that Jesus is God, the Creator of all things?

NICE straw man

Wow! This(?) is a verse you use in claiming the Archangel Michael is Jesus the Christ?

This verse states that the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout! A shout from whom? To many it would seem that the Lord Himself is doing the shouting wouldn't it?
I believe that this "shout" is found here:
Revelation 16:
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

....with the voice of the archangel

Revelation 18:
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

....and with the trump of God

Signaling what is taking place at this time.

To be claiming that which you are claiming? Indicates you are, or have not yet, given due credit, nor diligence to He who sits on the throne for ever and ever!

But? are giving THIS one the credit!:
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You are involved in eisegesis 101 here.

 

[Addy]

Hi @BarnyFife ... Nice to see you....

 

[kcnalp]

Jesus is not Michael. Michael is not Jesus. My Savior is Jesus, not Michael.

 

[Amazed@grace]

There is no confusion here on my part so let me ask again, why don't you think Jesus could be called an over arching human (arch human) a human being that excels in all things ie, the greatest human being that ever lived and that, without sin? .....and let me remind you of your answer earlier in post #83

You are absolutely confused.
You introduced the notion of Jesus and "archhuman". Not I.

And I am aware of post 83. I answered why your idea of Jesus archhuman was not in scripture.

 

[quietthinker]

Confusion becomes evident when dots are joined in a haphazard fashion. It is also evident when preconceptions formed without enquiry are in the drivers seat of consciousness.

Before Eve took the fruit in Eden something happened in her thinking processes; something which appeared logical and reasonable after her chat with the Serpent.
Jesus also had a chat with the Serpent but in a desert. Joining the dots well took all the energy he was left with after 40 days of fasting.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

As long as all understand that the term "the Angel of the LORD (YHWH)" applies strictly to Jesus before His incarnation, and definitely not to Michael or any other created angel. The Angel of the LORD identified Himself as I AM, or I AM THAT I AM, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Who also came to them as the Word of the LORD or the Word of God.

Jesus is mentioned hundreds of times as Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah, The Son of God, the Son of Man, our High Priest, our Savior, the Lamb of God, the Good Shepherd, the way, the truth and the life, the Doorway, the Bread of Life, the Light of the World, the Resurrection, the Vine, the Alpha and Omega, etc., and never refered to as an angel. Then all of a sudden in one verse He becomes Michael and then changes back to the Lord?
The whole Bible is about Jesus. Michael is his servant..Our Father challenges everyone with these statements:
"For to which of the angels did He ever say:
'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You?
And again:
I will be to Him a Father,
An He shall be to Me a Son?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
Let all the angels worship Him.
And of His angels He says:
Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.
But to the Son He says:
Your throne O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom." Heb. 1:5-8

Our Father makes a clear distinction between His Son and all the angels. He calls Him God. Angels were not permitted to allow men to bow to them. They could not receive worship. Jesus is worshipped and someday every knee will bow to Him
He has all authority in heaven and earth - you cannot possess that unless you are omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
Angels have limited powers, they could become sin nor take away the sins of the world, only an all mighty God could do that.
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things and in Him all things consist." Col. 1:16, 17
That means He is before Michael and He created Michael. And He didn't create Himself.
Actually, claimimg that Jesus is Michael would be a disgrace, degrading Him to something less than He is. If you believe that Jesus was Michael you would not nor could not worship Him. Realistically one could not have a loving relationship with an angel. Michael is an agent who does battle with Satan, Grabriel is a messenger and angels are around to protect us. Michael is only given the spot light a few times, Jesus is the Light of the entire Bible.

 

[Amazed@grace]

May

Jesus is mentioned hundreds of times as Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah, The Son of God, the Son of Man, our High Priest, our Savior, the Lamb of God, the Good Shepherd, the way, the truth and the life, the Doorway, the Bread of Life, the Light of the World, the Resurrection, the Vine, the Alpha and Omega, etc., and never refered to as an angel. Then all of a sudden in one verse He become a Michael and then changes back to the Lord?
The whole Bible is about Jesus. Michael is his servant..Our Father challenges everyone with these statements:
"For to which of the angels did He ever say:
'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You?
And again:
I will be to Him a Father,
An He shall be to Me a Son?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
Let all the angels worship Him.
And of His angels He says:
Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.
But to the Son He says:
Your throne O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom." Heb. 1:5-8

Our Father makes a clear distinction between His Son and all the angels. He calls Him God. Angels were not permitted to allow men to bow to them. They could not receive worship. Jesus is worshipped and someday every knee will bow to Him
He has all authority in heaven and earth - you cannot possess that unless you are omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
Angels have limited powers, they could become sin nor take away the sins of the world, only an all mighty God could do that.
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things and in Him all things consist." Col. 1:16, 17
That means He is before Michael and He created Michael. And He didn't create Himself.
Actually, claimimg that Jesus is Michael would be a disgrace, degrading Him to something less than He is. If you believe that Jesus was Michael you would not nor could not worship Him. Realistically one could not have a loving relationship with an angel. Michael is an agent who does battle with Satan, Grabriel is a messenger and angels are around to protect us. Michael is only given the spot light a few times, Jesus is the Light of the entire Bible.

Maybe we might consider that Jehovah Witness forums aren't that busy with conversation?

 

[quietthinker]

May
Maybe we might consider that Jehovah Witness forums aren't that busy with conversation?

What I find interesting is how certain folks join the dots. Regarding this subject it is assumed I have an affiliation with the Jehovahs Witness organisation, from that position it is determined, then argued against.
It is surprising the bizarre conclusions folk arrive at given some rope to develop their assumptions.
Herein is seen their dot joining process. Herein is seen how and why they arrive at erroneous conclusions.

 

[Enoch111]

Michael is only given the spot light a few times, Jesus is the Light of the entire Bible.

It is simply amazing how Satan can fool people even though they have their Bibles right in front of them. Michael would be really upset with these people who try to promote him. He would say "The LORD rebuke thee".

 

[Amazed@grace]

What I find interesting is how certain folks join the dots. Regarding this subject it is assumed I have an affiliation with the Jehovahs Witness organisation, from that position it is determined, then argued against.
It is surprising the bizarre conclusions folk arrive at given some rope to develop their assumptions.
Herein is seen their dot joining process. Herein is seen how and why they arrive at erroneous conclusions.

What's interesting is, I wasn't talking to you in that quote. Nor was the person I was talking to.

 

[BarneyFife]

Hi @BarnyFife ... Nice to see you....

Hi, Ad! U2oo

 

[BarneyFife]

What I find interesting is how certain folks join the dots. Regarding this subject it is assumed I have an affiliation with the Jehovahs Witness organisation, from that position it is determined, then argued against.
It is surprising the bizarre conclusions folk arrive at given some rope to develop their assumptions.
Herein is seen their dot joining process. Herein is seen how and why they arrive at erroneous conclusions.

Folks do generally take great comfort in categorizing. It's the next best thing to disposal.

 

[BarneyFife]

Jesus is not Michael. Michael is not Jesus. My Savior is Jesus, not Michael.

Fortunately, your word is not the last. The Bible has to be interpreted according to something understandable to the reader. If the Holy Spirit was guiding all of us we'd be agreeing a lot more. No one's telling you what to believe. And it's not likely that believing Jesus is Michael is essential to salvation in any case. So your dictatorials are like a tinkling cymbal of sorts. Sorry.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

May
Maybe we might consider that Jehovah Witness forums aren't that busy with conversation?

I think I remember one of them is not - just a Non-trinitarian, which is closer to the truth.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It is simply amazing how Satan can fool people even though they have their Bibles right in front of them. Michael would be really upset with these people who try to promote him. He would say "The LORD rebuke thee".

Oh my special request is when they get up there for Jesus to introduce them to Michael.

 

[BarneyFife]

Michael is only given the spot light a few times, Jesus is the Light of the entire Bible.

Unless the archangel is not an angel at all. Not every spirit is good. Angels are called ministering spirits in the Bible and God is a Spirit. But angels are not gods. There are spirits of devils working miracles. They are not the Holy Spirit. Because the doctrine of Christ (the Sovereign of the universe) referred to as Michael is not held by many, it is denounced as Satanic.

No one has given a thorough refutation of the case made in this thread in favor of the OP. Why not? Because it's easier to quote a couple of verses and scoff at something unfamiliar or simply categorize it as cultish.

Fantasies about rebukes and introductions may be pleasing to mention, but they are less than hypothetical.

Parroting irrelevant passages in Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1 is building a straw man. No one is suggesting that Christ is anything but Creator, Sustainer, and Redeemer of all.

Listing a few of the many names of Christ hurts a refutation more than helps it. Think about it.

 

[quietthinker]

I think I remember one of them is not - just a Non-trinitarian, which is closer to the truth.

Categorizing makes the thinking process easier. In fact one needs to think very little because there are ready made determinations to slot folk into. What a wonderfull way to justify one's blind spots and one's denial. By referring to these categories as the truth one has a readily refreshed armoury of bullet proof justifications and mockings.

 

[kcnalp]

Fortunately, your word is not the last. The Bible has to be interpreted according to something understandable to the reader. If the Holy Spirit was guiding all of us we'd be agreeing a lot more. No one's telling you what to believe. And it's not likely that believing Jesus is Michael is essential to salvation in any case. So your dictatorials are like a tinkling cymbal of sorts. Sorry.

Is Michael your savior? Jesus is my Savior. As was already mentioned, Michael is barely even mentioned in the NT.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

But angels are not gods

Yet you say the the only begotten Son of God is Michael, an angel.

No one has given a thorough refutation of the case made in this thread in favor of the OP. Why not? Because it's easier to quote a couple of verses and scoff at something unfamiliar or simply categorize it as cultish.

The Father clearly questions us in Hebrews about Jesus being higher than the angels, that He never treated them as He does His Son, not given them a position to sit on His right side of His Throne. He is the essence and exact glory of God's Light, power, Word, Love.
Jesus is the Creator. (Col. 1:16) God emptied Himself and became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14)
The Father calls Jesus God and clearly distinguushes Him from the angels. (Heb. 1)
Jesus is the Great "I Am", an intriduction He gave ti Mises that was fulfulled and detailed in John.
Angels take orders from God but never claim that they are the source of life, light, truth, that they are the WORD, nor do they ask us to believe in them for salvation. No they would point to Christ.
Angels are not to be worshipped or bowed down to - Jesus is. When He came into the world all the angels worshipped Him. They are under Him. When He returns, He will come with His angels, Michael being the head (general if you will) of the angels and Michaels voice will command the angels. This is what is meant by Jesus coming with the voice of an archangel.
Isn't it typical when a war begins for the Commander in Chief to issue the order to his general? HIS general gives an order to blow the trumpet and He yells charge.

Parroting irrelevant passages in Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1 is building a straw man. No one is suggesting that Christ is anything but Creator, Sustainer, and Redeemer of all.

IF Barney was a parrot he could learn to say Jesus is not Michael, over and over again. This would be an achievement. But unfortunately Barney is not.
Barney can you agree with this phrase: Jesus is Lord? And when He returns will you now a knee to Him?