Thoughting again!....oh no, is that allowed?

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quietthinker

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I think you might be working too hard with your mind to learn about God. I think you should leave that and concentrate on a simple and pure trust as that is what pleases Him most and gets us furthest the fastest. Trust Him, not your mind.
Mysteries abound when it comes to discovering God stunnedbygrace; the greatest mystery being why we are loved as much as we are. In the process of my discovery the knee bone becomes connected to the thigh bone and I can't but help enquire, particularly when scripture references this connection.

Another one of those questions is the Sanctuary of ancient Israel; the plans and processes which were given to Moses by God.
Christianity today has stopped at the sacrifice of the lamb yet the symbolism goes on way beyond the lamb slain. Have you ever wondered why there is no or limited curiosity about this?

In my search I have learned that when something in scripture doesn't fit or threatens a paradigm held, it is ignored even ridiculed without the research it begs.

Would one call that working too hard with my mind to learn about God?
 

quietthinker

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This is blatantly false. Michael is a created being -- the archangel Michael -- which is clearly stated in Scripture. Jesus is God the Word, the Creator of Michael.

So how do people get so thoroughly confused? By paying attention to false prophets and false teachers. Only the cultists believe that Michael and Jesus are identical. Indeed the name "Michael" means "Who is like God?" But the name "Emmanuel" means "GOD with us".
Enoch, one can be a father, a brother, a human being, a carpenter, a messenger and so on without any of them being in conflict.
 
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quietthinker

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THE ANGEL OF THE LORD

Throughout the Old Testament we constantly find the appearance of an “angel of the Lord/captain of the hosts” who manifestly turns out to be God. Here are those verses:

Example #1:

“And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude… And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?” (Genesis 16:7-10, 13)

Example #2:

“And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son.” (Gen 22:15-16)

Example #3:

“And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.” (Genesis 31:11-13)

Example #4:

“But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.” (Judges 13:21-22)

In these first four examples we find an angel who is identified as “the God who sees,” “the Lord,” the “God of Bethel,” and the God that appears to Manoah and his wife. Since God is appearing to these individuals as the “angel of the Lord” it is evident that the use of the word “angel” does not always mean it is a created, angelic being. Not every time, at least.

Let’s examine some other examples:

Example #5:

“And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:24-30)

Jacob identifies this mysterious man as God, and the prophet Hosea refers to him as an “angel” (Hosea 12:2-4). Since “no man hath seen the Father” (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) and yet Jacob, along with Manoah and his wife, saw God “face to face,” it is evident that this divine angel was none other than Jesus himself.

Example #6:

“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.” (Exodus 3:3-6)

Here, the angel identifies himself as “God.” In verse 14 God tells Moses that he is the great “I AM.” This is absolute proof that it was Jesus, the “angel of the Lord” that appeared to Moses, because Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58). Moreover, these verses simultaneously prove that Jesus is not a created angelic being, because “I AM” implies a self-existent, eternal being. We reject the Jehovah’s Witness viewpoint that Jesus is a created being. To Seventh-day Adventists, Jesus is deity, and has always existed. The “angel of the Lord” is simply the tangible pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus in certain instances of the Old Testament.

Example #7:

“Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, [and] spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God… Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.” (Daniel 3:24-25, 28)

Here we have a direct reference to Jesus, the “Son of God.” The King, for a brief moment under direct inspiration of God, recognizes the parallel between Jesus and God’s “angel.”

Example #8:

“And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. (Joshua 5:13-15)

This “captain of the host of the Lord” accepted Joshua’s worship. If this were a mere man or angel of God, he would have put a stop to it immediately (compare with Acts 14:11-15, Rev. 22:8-9). Moreover Joshua was commanded to remove his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. No mere man or angel can make the ground holy. Recall that it was God’s presence that made the ground holy at the scene of the burning bush, where Moses was also told to remove his shoes (Exodus 3:5). Thus the one who appeared to Joshua as the leader of God’s host was God himself, or Jesus, since no man has ever seen the Father.

Moreover there is a connection between this Being and Michael. Note that it says he is the “captain of the host of the Lord.” What does archangel mean again? That’s right, it means “chief of the angels.” Now unless there are two Beings that lead God’s heavenly army (which we do not have scriptural proof for) we are forced to conclude that it was none other than Jesus who appeared to Joshua as Michael, the “captain of the host of the Lord.”

Example #9:

“Behold, I will send my messenger (malak), and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (malak) of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 3:1)

In Hebrew, the word “angel” is malak and it simply means “messenger, representative.” The term does not always refer to angelic beings. It can also refer to humans as well. Now according to Matthew 11:7, 10, the first messenger is John the Baptist. Since it was the office of John to prepare the way before Jesus (see John 1:30) it follows that the second messenger in Malachi 3:1, is Jesus. Thus we have Jesus being referred to as a malak, or angel.

The evidence is strong in all of these texts that the appearance of this angel is in fact the appearance of the preincarnate Jesus. He is that archangel, or chief/leader of the angels, or “angel of the Lord” whose voice raises the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people. He is that “angel of the host” and the “messenger of the covenant” as well. No other Being falls into these categories except Jesus Christ himself. Michael is simply his alternative name.
thank you BarnyFife for this exegesis.
 

Truman

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Humanism - any thought or idea originating in the human mind.
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It is my contention that when we are born-again of the Spirit, we are both natural and spiritual.
Self being the natural. We can walk out Luke 9:23 and say, in fact, "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me."
 

quietthinker

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Arch,think, Arch-angel, is from the Greek Archon. Archon means, chief or rule.

For Jesus to be an Arch human, the bible would have to call him that. It does not. Because Jesus was not born , chief human.

Jesus was God and Messiah.
yes, I'm thinking....I think you have joined dots that are not meant to join.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Jesus is the name given to the man who amongst other things has divided Earth's history.

This man crucified as a criminal also has many titles, like 'Prince of Peace', The Everlasting Father, The Alpha and Omega, Immanuel, King of Kings, Lamb of God and many more but did the angels know him as Jesus prior to his incarnation on Earth?

'The Angel of the LORD encamps around about those who fear him....' Psalm 34:7
It was the Angel of the LORD who followed Israel in the cloud. There are other references of this nature as well where Jesus is referenced as an Angel.

Could it be that prior to Jesus incarnation as a man; to the Angels he was known as Michael, as referenced in Daniel 10:21 and 12:1?....I would say, The Arch Angel?. Even in the above quote in Psalms, David's reference is an 'Angel'... in fact, the Angel of the LORD....all capitals. We know that when LORD is translated in Capitals it is the personal name of God.

The account of Sarai, Hagar and Ishmael in Genesis 16 is worth looking at regarding this.

Looking up the meaning of 'Michael' is also interesting.

By the way, 'name' means character.
'hallowed be thy name' ... 'has a name above every other name' .... 'on his thigh was written a name which only he himself knew'.

Another thought....the invisible God who Jesus said is a Spirit and only seen by the Son reveals himself through the Son.....to the angels as an angel.....to men as a man?
Okay, so Jesus is Michael ... you are a Jehovah Witness?
Wrong.
There are only 5 references to Michael in the entire Bible. The entire Bible is about Jesus. Michael is His archangel. When Jesus returns, He will. Come with His angels and with the Archangel, who blows the trumpet. He is greater than the angels, says His Father im Hebrews 1.
 
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quietthinker

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Okay, so Jesus is Michael ... you are a Jehovah Witness?
Wrong.
There are only 5 references to Michael in the entire Bible. The entire Bible is about Jesus. Michael is His archangel. When Jesus returns, He will. Come with His angels and with the Archangel, who blows the trumpet. He is greater than the angels, says His Father im Hebrews 1.
If you are interested in thorough exegesis on this please go back and read BarnyFife's posts #72 and 74 in this thread.
 

quietthinker

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And a question arrived at from your own imagination first. Because it otherwise had no relevance to anything I'd said prior.
You were then asking me if I thought as you did there.
I answered no. And you then asked why not.

Lord, are we really doing this? :(
There is no confusion here on my part so let me ask again, why don't you think Jesus could be called an over arching human (arch human) a human being that excels in all things ie, the greatest human being that ever lived and that, without sin? .....and let me remind you of your answer earlier in post #83
Arch,think, Arch-angel, is from the Greek Archon. Archon means, chief or rule.
For Jesus to be an Arch human, the bible would have to call him that. It does not. Because Jesus was not born , chief human.
Jesus was God and Messiah.
Because the bible does specifically use the term 'arch human' does that make him not so considering he rose from the dead which in his own words he puts like this: 'The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
John 10:17-18.

Could any other human being make a statement like this and be credible?....I would say not.
If you consider Jesus credible as the Gospels attest then by any measure he must be an Archhuman.
 
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kcnalp

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There is no confusion here on my part so let me ask again, why don't you think Jesus could be called an over arching human (arch human) a human being that excels in all things ie, the greatest human being that ever lived and that, without sin? .....and let me remind you of your answer earlier in post #83

Because the bible does specifically use the term 'arch human' does that make him not so considering he rose from the dead which in his own words he puts like this: 'The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
John 10:17-18.

Could any other human being make a statement like this and be credible?....I would say not.
If you consider Jesus credible as the Gospels attest then by any measure he must be an Archhuman.
Do you deny that Jesus is God, the Creator of all things?
 

NayborBear

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“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

Wow! This(?) is a verse you use in claiming the Archangel Michael is Jesus the Christ?

This verse states that the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout! A shout from whom? To many it would seem that the Lord Himself is doing the shouting wouldn't it?
I believe that this "shout" is found here:
Revelation 16:
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

....with the voice of the archangel

Revelation 18:
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

....and with the trump of God

Signaling what is taking place at this time.

To be claiming that which you are claiming? Indicates you are, or have not yet, given due credit, nor diligence to He who sits on the throne for ever and ever!

But? are giving THIS one the credit!:
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.