Thoughting again!....oh no, is that allowed?

[quietthinker]

Jesus is the name given to the man who amongst other things has divided Earth's history.

This man crucified as a criminal also has many titles, like 'Prince of Peace', The Everlasting Father, The Alpha and Omega, Immanuel, King of Kings, Lamb of God and many more but did the angels know him as Jesus prior to his incarnation on Earth?

'The Angel of the LORD encamps around about those who fear him....' Psalm 34:7
It was the Angel of the LORD who followed Israel in the cloud. There are other references of this nature as well where Jesus is referenced as an Angel.

Could it be that prior to Jesus incarnation as a man; to the Angels he was known as Michael, as referenced in Daniel 10:21 and 12:1?....I would say, The Arch Angel?. Even in the above quote in Psalms, David's reference is an 'Angel'... in fact, the Angel of the LORD....all capitals. We know that when LORD is translated in Capitals it is the personal name of God.

The account of Sarai, Hagar and Ishmael in Genesis 16 is worth looking at regarding this.

Looking up the meaning of 'Michael' is also interesting.

By the way, 'name' means character.
'hallowed be thy name' ... 'has a name above every other name' .... 'on his thigh was written a name which only he himself knew'.

Another thought....the invisible God who Jesus said is a Spirit and only seen by the Son reveals himself through the Son.....to the angels as an angel.....to men as a man?

 

[friend of]

Could it be that prior to Jesus incarnation as a man; to the Angels he was known as Michael,

I really don't think so man. Hebrews 1 puts the idea of Jesus being Michael to rest. Read it again and take it in.

but did the angels know him as Jesus prior to his incarnation on Earth?

It's a mystery. I don't think we know for sure.

 

[quietthinker]

I really don't think so man. Hebrews 1 puts the idea of Jesus being Michael to rest. Read it again and take it in.


It's a mystery. I don't think we know for sure.

Righty!....I read Hebrews 1 again. How do you see it putting Jesus being Michael to rest?

 

[marks]

Hebrews 1:1-14 KJV
1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Inclusive language, "better than the angels", not, better than the other angels, or, the remaining angels, or, the others besides Michael.

5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Rhetorical question has no answer, none of the angels, not Michael, or any other.

6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Same, inclusive language, Let all the angels of God worship Him. God commands worship for Himself alone.

7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Inclusive, the angels, including Michael, and then, but unto the Son, this is contrasted, the angels do not include the Son, and the Son does not include angels.

9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Rhetorical . . . that is . . . to none of them.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is the name given to the man who amongst other things has divided Earth's history.

This man crucified as a criminal also has many titles, like 'Prince of Peace', The Everlasting Father, The Alpha and Omega, Immanuel, King of Kings, Lamb of God and many more but did the angels know him as Jesus prior to his incarnation on Earth?

'The Angel of the LORD encamps around about those who fear him....' Psalm 34:7
It was the Angel of the LORD who followed Israel in the cloud. There are other references of this nature as well where Jesus is referenced as an Angel.

Could it be that prior to Jesus incarnation as a man; to the Angels he was known as Michael, as referenced in Daniel 10:21 and 12:1?....I would say, The Arch Angel?. Even in the above quote in Psalms, David's reference is an 'Angel'... in fact, the Angel of the LORD....all capitals. We know that when LORD is translated in Capitals it is the personal name of God.

The account of Sarai, Hagar and Ishmael in Genesis 16 is worth looking at regarding this.

Looking up the meaning of 'Michael' is also interesting.

By the way, 'name' means character.
'hallowed be thy name' ... 'has a name above every other name' .... 'on his thigh was written a name which only he himself knew'.

Another thought....the invisible God who Jesus said is a Spirit and only seen by the Son reveals himself through the Son.....to the angels as an angel.....to men as a man?

The pre-incarnate Christ is the eternal Father who inhabits eternity (Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 57:15). He is the one Lord of holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

That Jesus is the Lord is the clear teaching of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

See True Trinity. (especially posts #1-#6)

 

[quietthinker]

4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time,

to get a perspective....in the same vein, if we substituted the word 'angels' for 'men'...would that diminish who Jesus is in himself? I wouldn't have thought so. Wasn't he so much better than men as his name is so much better than theirs?....name meaning, character.

 

[marks]

to get a perspective....in the same vein, if we substituted the word 'angels' for 'men'...would that diminish who Jesus is in himself? I wouldn't have thought so. Wasn't he so much better than men as his name is so much better than theirs?....name meaning, character.

I'm looking at the passage and seeing various individuals and groups being identified. As we are questioning the identity of one of these individuals, why not use the identifications given?

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

I'm looking at the passage and seeing various individuals and groups being identified. As we are questioning the identy of one of these individuals, why not use the identifications given?

Much love!

The identification is 'the Son' as the superior. It matters not whether he is seen as an angel or a man. When it says, 'let all the angels of God worship him' could we also say, let all mankind worship him?....I think so.

I think there are many 'elements' outside of our immediate knowledge.... for instance, we have virtually no information of other areas (intelligences) of God's vast creation in the Universe. One of those elements is how God relates/related to the angels. The mention of the LORD as an angel (angel of the LORD) even giving that angel a name consistent with God's name, is one of those curiosities.

 

[marks]

It matters not whether he is seen as an angel or a man.

It seems to me to matter to the Author of Hebrews.

He seems to have taken particular pains to make the distinction. We can say, yes, as you suggest, that all mankind is to worship Jesus, which in my mind is to show Jesus to be God, because we worship God, but that doesn't impact whether Jesus would be an angel.

And in fact the text delineates between angels and the Son of God.

If we listen to what it says, that's what it says.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

Jesus is the name given to the man who amongst other things has divided Earth's history.

This man crucified as a criminal also has many titles, like 'Prince of Peace', The Everlasting Father, The Alpha and Omega, Immanuel, King of Kings, Lamb of God and many more but did the angels know him as Jesus prior to his incarnation on Earth?

'The Angel of the LORD encamps around about those who fear him....' Psalm 34:7
It was the Angel of the LORD who followed Israel in the cloud. There are other references of this nature as well where Jesus is referenced as an Angel.

Could it be that prior to Jesus incarnation as a man; to the Angels he was known as Michael, as referenced in Daniel 10:21 and 12:1?....I would say, The Arch Angel?. Even in the above quote in Psalms, David's reference is an 'Angel'... in fact, the Angel of the LORD....all capitals. We know that when LORD is translated in Capitals it is the personal name of God.

The account of Sarai, Hagar and Ishmael in Genesis 16 is worth looking at regarding this.

Looking up the meaning of 'Michael' is also interesting.

By the way, 'name' means character.
'hallowed be thy name' ... 'has a name above every other name' .... 'on his thigh was written a name which only he himself knew'.

Another thought....the invisible God who Jesus said is a Spirit and only seen by the Son reveals himself through the Son.....to the angels as an angel.....to men as a man?

Jesus was/is God incarnate. Not a created being.

 

[Enoch111]

Could it be that prior to Jesus incarnation as a man; to the Angels he was known as Michael...

Not even remotely possible. Michael is His servant.

 

[quietthinker]

It seems to me to matter to the Author of Hebrews.

He seems to have taken particular pains to make the distinction. We can say, yes, as you suggest, that all mankind is to worship Jesus, which in my mind is to show Jesus to be God, because we worship God, but that doesn't impact whether Jesus would be an angel.

And in fact the text delineates between angels and the Son of God.

If we listen to what it says, that's what it says.

Much love!

I'm not so much saying that Jesus is an angel as one would understand it to be a created being but rather that the invisible God manifested as an angel to the angels before Man's creation, just as the invisible God manifested to man as a man in our history.

A further curious account from Genesis 16 is of the man/God/angel 'relationship' spoken of in the Genesis 18 and 19 account of Abraham being visited by three 'men'....at least they appeared that way but as the text unfolds it becomes evident that one of them was The LORD (upper case)... and the other two 'angels' as noted in Ch. 19 vs 1 which Abraham addresses as 'my lords'...lower case.

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus was/is God incarnate. Not a created being.

not saying God is a created being....please read again Renniks.

 

[Mayflower]

This passage came to mind...

"For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. But one has testified somewhere, saying, “What is man , that You remember him? Or the son of man , that You are concerned about him? You have made him for a little while lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor , And have appointed him over the works of Your hands; You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2:5‭-‬9 NASB1995

And Jesus is God in flesh.

Colossians 2:9

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

And was God in the very beginning:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
John 1:1‭-‬5 NASB1995


So how I see it...is He was higher then the angels beforehand, and gave that up even to come to earth to die for us. Very humbling to think about.

But the cool part, is I believe this means we will one day be higher then the angels as well.

 

[Mayflower]

I'm not so much saying that Jesus is an angel as one would understand it to be a created being but rather that the invisible God manifested as an angel to the angels before Man's creation, just as the invisible God manifested to man as a man in our history.

A further curious account from Genesis 16 is of the man/God/angel 'relationship' spoken of in the Genesis 18 and 19 account of Abraham being visited by three 'men'....at least they appeared that way but as the text unfolds it becomes evident that one of them was The LORD (upper case)... and the other two 'angels' as noted in Ch. 19 vs 1 which Abraham addresses as 'my lords'...lower case.

Oh snap. Just read this.

 

[quietthinker]

Not even remotely possible. Michael is His servant.

yet the angel revealing things to Daniel in chapter 12:1 tells us that Michael is the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people.

It seems to me that the Great Prince who does this is none other than Jesus.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus was/is God incarnate. Not a created being.

Yes, no doubt, He is God incarnate.

However, according to the flesh He is "made of the seed of David" (Romans 1:3 (kjv), Isaiah 45:11).

 

[Truman]

You think Michael is Jesus? Have you ever heard of over-thinking?

 

[Truman]

Michael is a created being. Jesus is the creator. There was an angel who thought he was as God. This was the result:

 

[Enoch111]

yet the angel revealing things to Daniel in chapter 12:1 tells us that Michael is the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people.

True. Michael the Archangel has been specifically assigned to Israel to watch over the Jews.

But Michael, when contending with devil about the body of Moses said "The LORD rebuke thee". So there's your answer. Michael is ultimately accountable to the Lord, and the Lord sends Michael to do battle with the devil and his evil angels just before the reign of the Antichrist (Rev 12-13). Christ could wipe that whole gang out with one word. but He chooses to let Michael and his holy angels do battle.

The Catholics (and perhaps the Orthodox) have made Michael into Saint Michael. But angels and archangels cannot be designated as "saints". Only the redeemed of the Lord.