Thoughting again!....oh no, is that allowed?

[BarneyFife]

If you replace Bible doctrine with kindness then Satan has already deceived you. It is the Word of God that can save people, not your kindness.

You have a marvelous aptitude for cherry-picking and twisting the intents and purposes of other people's words. There's probably some serious money to be made in that.

 

[BarneyFife]

Here's why Michael cannot possibly be Jesus, the eternal Son of God.

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. (Daniel 10:13)

Who are these "princes" (as distinct from the kings of Persia)? The context shows that they are NOT human rulers, but angelic rulers from among the "thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers" (the hierarchies of angels). It would appear that "the prince of the kingdom of Persia" was a powerful angelic being who actually withstood the angel who was speaking with Daniel. Therefore Michael came to his help. Another "prince" is also mentioned below -- the prince of Grecia (Greece).

But what is more to the point is that Michael is only one of the "chief princes" meaning the archangels. So there are other archangels (not mentioned in Scripture, but named in the book of Enoch) equal to Michael.

So Michael is DEFINITELY NOT the chiefest of all the archangels. But he is called "the prince of thy people" (meaning the archangel assigned to Israel and the Jews). And since Michael recognizes that there is a LORD above him, who will deal with Satan, it should be obvious that all this talk about Michael being Jesus is ABSOLUTE AND TOTAL NONSENSE. In fact it is heretical.

One verse settles it, eh? Nice.

 

[BarneyFife]

Ok, fine, but I'm just going to give you a few verses of scripture. I can't give you His Spirit, that's God's job.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made John 1:1-2
If you don't believe that the Angel's are created beings there's nothing that I can do for you, but all the host of heaven was created on the 4th day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:14-19
If you have even the simplest understanding of cosmology and the nature of stars, it's pretty clear that balls of gas transforming elements through thermonuclear reactions don't rule anything. They're inanimate objects. But if you're spiritual, you should understand that the truth of those verses can only be spiritual in nature and that their meaning is obvious.

You've succeeded marvelously in not getting the point and making your argument weaker all at once. If you don't want to respond to the questions posed to you, why not just say so or remain silent?

 

[BarneyFife]

It's a label used to identify a false argument but I stopped arguing with the kiddies a long time ago. I just ask questions, answer questions, and occasionally give prophesy or encouragement according to my faith and my calling. I don't debate, my logic is mathematical, not an exercise in didactic and when I teach it is from scripture or from science applied to scripture as I've been taught by the Holy Spirit. This isn't a seminary, it's an ecumenical discussion forum and the name of the site is a misnomer.

Too bad your profession is not commensurate with your content.

 

[Amazed@grace]

Comments like this devalue your stock. Just sayin'.

Comment history like yours ,the above included, have zero value except to prove, by just your many examples, and those of others, like the one that threatened to grind me to dust in print while stupidly forgetting the ignore function, the value of my observations truth.

Those so pricked as offenders, respond offended they've been identified . You've said quite enough.

 

[BarneyFife]

Would you rather I just called him antichrist according to the biblical definitions? Who are you defending, the Cultic Jehovah's witnesses, or Free Masonry and it's pagan roots?

No, you're not contentious at all. No arguing with the kiddies here.

 

[BarneyFife]

Comment history like yours ,the above included, have zero value except to prove, by just your many examples, and those of others, like the one that threatened to grind me to dust in print while stupidly forgetting the ignore function, the value of my observations truth.

Those so pricked as offenders, respond offended they've been identified . You've said quite enough.

If all you've got is "I know you are but what am I?" then I'm not the only one who's run out of material. Calling you out for using obscenity is viable enough, I think. Get over it.

 

[BarneyFife]

Seriously?

You're dodging.

 

[BarneyFife]

And you bear false witness against a saint to protect pagans and a false gospel. See Yah, wouldn't want to be ya.

Nice

 

[Wrangler]

Uh... Matthew 7:1 quite literally says that.

Oy vey. Never read v2 eh? It is a prohibition against hypocrisy, one of the few sins Jesus condemned people for. Please tell me you realize Jesus is not actually conveying the idea that we should not judge at all?

7 Jesus: If you judge other people, then you will find that you, too, are being judged. 2 Indeed, you will be judged by the very standards to which you hold other people.
Matthew 7:1-2 (Voice)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

"The majority of Christians must be right."

God is sovereign! That said, do you think His message to us of Who the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is, has been misguided to produce only 2%-5% understanding OR do you think God would guide 95+% of us towards the truth?
Because if you are right, God is not sovereign, He has failed to convey Who He really is.

No, you are wrong. As far as I am concerned, this case is closed.
NEXT.

 

[kcnalp]

Oh, they're definitely out there.

SDA's maybe?

 

[kcnalp]

You have a marvelous aptitude for cherry-picking and twisting the intents and purposes of other people's words.

Back at you!

There's probably some serious money to be made in that.

Really? Tell us about it.

 

[Enoch111]

One verse settles it, eh? Nice.

Thanks. That's the way it should be. One verse from Scripture supersedes 100 lines of argument.

 

[Gary Urban]

Jesus is the name given to the man who amongst other things has divided Earth's history.

This man crucified as a criminal also has many titles, like 'Prince of Peace', The Everlasting Father, The Alpha and Omega, Immanuel, King of Kings, Lamb of God and many more but did the angels know him as Jesus prior to his incarnation on Earth?

'The Angel of the LORD encamps around about those who fear him....' Psalm 34:7
It was the Angel of the LORD who followed Israel in the cloud. There are other references of this nature as well where Jesus is referenced as an Angel.

Could it be that prior to Jesus incarnation as a man; to the Angels he was known as Michael, as referenced in Daniel 10:21 and 12:1?....I would say, The Arch Angel?. Even in the above quote in Psalms, David's reference is an 'Angel'... in fact, the Angel of the LORD....all capitals. We know that when LORD is translated in Capitals it is the personal name of God.

The account of Sarai, Hagar and Ishmael in Genesis 16 is worth looking at regarding this.

Looking up the meaning of 'Michael' is also interesting.

By the way, 'name' means character.
'hallowed be thy name' ... 'has a name above every other name' .... 'on his thigh was written a name which only he himself knew'.

Another thought....the invisible God who Jesus said is a Spirit and only seen by the Son reveals himself through the Son.....to the angels as an angel.....to men as a man?

'Michael' a query. Who is like God? No man .

I would agree it’s one of doctrines that I would think should be revisited.

Remember Jesus as the Son of man came to do the will of him who sent him, as a sent one (apostle) a messenger that some call angel the greek word . He came to declare prophecy, the word of the unseen father, as the chief apostles the corner stones of all apostles .

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

 

[BarneyFife]

Oy vey. Never read v2 eh? It is a prohibition against hypocrisy, one of the few sins Jesus condemned people for. Please tell me you realize Jesus is not actually conveying the idea that we should not judge at all?

7 Jesus: If you judge other people, then you will find that you, too, are being judged. 2 Indeed, you will be judged by the very standards to which you hold other people.
Matthew 7:1-2 (Voice)

Nope. Never read verse 2. That changes everything. Jesus must not have meant that if you judge people in some way, you will be judged in some way, as well. My bad. I've been reading that all wrong for over 30 years.

So who does this judging of the alleged judger? Must be God, right? But doesn't the Bible say that God judges with righteous judgment? I thought it did. And here now we're finding out that God sometimes judges with our unrighteous judgment. I'm confused. Must be more than one kind of judgment. Oh well, I guess all I need to do to find out what's going on is to stay tuned to this wealth of exegetical professors we have on this thread.

I just answered your simple question, to begin with, by the way. Now it's a great big mess. What exactly should we be judging and how? (Aren't you glad you went off on this tangent?)

 

[Gary Urban]

to get a perspective....in the same vein, if we substituted the word 'angels' for 'men'...would that diminish who Jesus is in himself? I wouldn't have thought so. Wasn't he so much better than men as his name is so much better than theirs?....name meaning, character.

Yes exactly the word messenger refers to men as sons of God . Jesus the first born of the brethern.

In that we must be careful when entertaining strangers they may have been sent as messengers to us or us to them or both in order to strengthen the mutual faith (Christ's in us) of the two or three .

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Many good strangers on this forum.

 

[BarneyFife]

That said, do you think His message to us of Who the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is, has been misguided to produce only 2%-5% understanding OR do you think God would guide 95+% of us towards the truth?

The Barna Research Group has determined that indeed only about 5% of people who identify as Christian are devout, believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, and read it regularly.

Because if you are right, God is not sovereign, He has failed to convey Who He really is.

No, the human race as a whole has failed to recognize who God really is. Your Theology, in this case, borders on some sort of "Christian" Universalism.

No, you are wrong.

Whatever you say. I don't really care who "wins." It's always Jesus, anyway. When are we going to realize that?

 

[BarneyFife]

SDA's maybe?

I'm sure you'll enlighten us on that subject.

 

[kcnalp]

I'm sure you'll enlighten us on that subject.

I don't know a lot but I know Jesus is God, my Savior not Michael, in spite of your implied insult. I still don't know which religion claims that Michael is their savior besides JW's. What's your religion? Do you even know?