The Cross: Only For A Few

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TexUs

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This does go hand in hand with the free will/predestination argument however I will try to keep this contained within the scope of the atonement only. It was hard to do so because there's so many thoughts that branch out from this, but I think I've done a fairly decent job of keeping it on the atonement.
This is by no means exhaustive.

To begin, let's just look at some statements made by Biblical authors and some interesting things that weren't said.

Matthew 26:28, "This is the blood of my covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
You'll note Christ doesn't state that the blood was poured out for "all", why the clear limitation of "many"?

Matthew 20:28, "The Son of Man came to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Romans 5:15, "God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflowed to many!"
Romans 5:19, "Through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."
Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many."
We see the same concept all over the Bible.

John 10:11,15, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. Just as the Father knows me and know the Father - and I lay my life down for the sheep."
To understand John's passage, read Matthew's:
Matthew 25:32, "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and he will separate the people from one another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."
So, Christ will separate the sheep from the goats. There are different groups of people- that's all you need to gather from this at the moment.

Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her."
Christ loved and died for the Church, no mention of "all peoples".

John 17:9, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."
Christ himself says he prays not for the world, but only those who are his!

We have now seen that there are the sheep, and the goats. Two groups.
The sheep are the church.
The goats are... what's left.
Matthew 7:13, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
The goats will see destruction. The goats are the majority. The sheep will see life. The sheep are few.


That's just a brief look at the atonement, the limited nature of it.



Romans 8:32, "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?"
This means that Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. The ultimate gift. There is nothing, once this gift has been given, that can top it.
Now, think about what this means for atonement. If Christ gave his life up for every person on earth: why wouldn't he freely give us all other things? But we see this is not the case.
So we see that Christ didn't give his life up for every person- only the sheep.
Perhaps "all things" needs to be clarified. Let's look to context.
Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, He did predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son. That He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestine, he also called. Whom he called, He justified. Whom He justified, He glorified."
So we see that if Christ dies, he will give us all things: this includes salvation. The entire world is not saved, thus that gift was not given to the entire world. The conclusion is that Christ only died for the sheep!

How undeserving we are!
 

Nomad

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Yes, you're a brave man Tex. I expected you to be under a pig pile of hostlile posts by this morning. Don't worry, there's still time. :D

Nice post, btw. ;)
 

Butch5

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This does go hand in hand with the free will/predestination argument however I will try to keep this contained within the scope of the atonement only. It was hard to do so because there's so many thoughts that branch out from this, but I think I've done a fairly decent job of keeping it on the atonement.
This is by no means exhaustive.

To begin, let's just look at some statements made by Biblical authors and some interesting things that weren't said.

Matthew 26:28, "This is the blood of my covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
You'll note Christ doesn't state that the blood was poured out for "all", why the clear limitation of "many"?

Matthew 20:28, "The Son of Man came to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Romans 5:15, "God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflowed to many!"
Romans 5:19, "Through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."
Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many."
We see the same concept all over the Bible.

John 10:11,15, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. Just as the Father knows me and know the Father - and I lay my life down for the sheep."
To understand John's passage, read Matthew's:
Matthew 25:32, "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and he will separate the people from one another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."
So, Christ will separate the sheep from the goats. There are different groups of people- that's all you need to gather from this at the moment.

Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her."
Christ loved and died for the Church, no mention of "all peoples".

John 17:9, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."
Christ himself says he prays not for the world, but only those who are his!

We have now seen that there are the sheep, and the goats. Two groups.
The sheep are the church.
The goats are... what's left.
Matthew 7:13, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
The goats will see destruction. The goats are the majority. The sheep will see life. The sheep are few.


That's just a brief look at the atonement, the limited nature of it.



Romans 8:32, "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?"
This means that Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. The ultimate gift. There is nothing, once this gift has been given, that can top it.
Now, think about what this means for atonement. If Christ gave his life up for every person on earth: why wouldn't he freely give us all other things? But we see this is not the case.
So we see that Christ didn't give his life up for every person- only the sheep.
Perhaps "all things" needs to be clarified. Let's look to context.
Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, He did predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son. That He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestine, he also called. Whom he called, He justified. Whom He justified, He glorified."
So we see that if Christ dies, he will give us all things: this includes salvation. The entire world is not saved, thus that gift was not given to the entire world. The conclusion is that Christ only died for the sheep!

How undeserving we are!


My friend, an argument from silence is no argument at all.
 

TexUs

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Polos, which means many, much, large, often, etc... Many is an accurate translation, the only point to take away from those examples is that they are certainly not all-inclusive.
 

tomwebster

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Can you elaborate what is the Greek word translated as many and which dictionaries you used?


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed (G1632) for (G4012) many (G4183) for (G1519) the remission (G859) of sins.(G266)

Greek New Testament (Majority Text)
Mat 26:28 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστι τὸ αἶμά μου τὸ τῆς καινῆς διαθήκης τὸ περὶ πολλῶν (G4183) ἐκχυνόμενον εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν

Mat 26:28 ForG1063 thisG5124 isG2076 myG3450 bloodG129 of(G3588) theG3588 newG2537 testament,G1242 which is shedG1632 forG4012 manyG4183 forG1519 the remissionG859 of sins.G266


Mat 26:28 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστι τὸ αἶμά μου τὸ τῆς καινῆς διαθήκης τὸ περὶ πολλῶν (G4183) ἐκχυνόμενον εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν

Robinson/Pierpont Byzantine Greek New Testament (w/ Strong's)
Mat 26:28 τουτοG3778 D-NSN γαρG1063 CONJ εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S τοG3588 T-NSN αιμαG129 N-NSN μουG1473 P-1GS τοG3588 T-NSN τηςG3588 T-GSF καινηςG2537 A-GSF διαθηκηςG1242 N-GSF τοG3588 T-NSN περιG4012 PREP πολλωνG4183 A-GPM εκχυνομενονG1632 V-PPP-NSN ειςG1519 PREP αφεσινG859 N-ASF αμαρτιωνG266 N-GPF

Textus Receptus Greek New Testament (w/ Strong's)
Mat 26:28 τουτοG3778 D-NSN γαρG1063 CONJ εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S τοG3588 T-NSN αιμαG129 N-NSN μουG1473 P-1GS τοG3588 T-NSN τηςG3588 T-GSF καινηςG2537 A-GSF διαθηκηςG1242 N-GSF τοG3588 T-NSN περιG4012 PREP πολλωνG4183 A-GPM εκχυνομενονG1632 V-PPP-NSN ειςG1519 PREP αφεσινG859 N-ASF αμαρτιωνG266 N-GPF

Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament (w/ Strong's)
Mat 26:28 τουτοG3778 D-NSN γαρG1063 CONJ εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S τοG3588 T-NSN αιμαG129 N-NSN μουG1473 P-1GS τηςG3588 T-GSF διαθηκηςG1242 N-GSF τοG3588 T-NSN περιG4012 PREP πολλωνG4183 A-GPM εκχυννομενονG1632 V-PPP-NSN ειςG1519 PREP αφεσινG859 N-ASF αμαρτιωνG266 N-GPF
 

aspen

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This does go hand in hand with the free will/predestination argument however I will try to keep this contained within the scope of the atonement only. It was hard to do so because there's so many thoughts that branch out from this, but I think I've done a fairly decent job of keeping it on the atonement.
This is by no means exhaustive.

To begin, let's just look at some statements made by Biblical authors and some interesting things that weren't said.

Matthew 26:28, "This is the blood of my covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
You'll note Christ doesn't state that the blood was poured out for "all", why the clear limitation of "many"?

Matthew 20:28, "The Son of Man came to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Romans 5:15, "God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflowed to many!"
Romans 5:19, "Through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."
Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many."
We see the same concept all over the Bible.

John 10:11,15, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. Just as the Father knows me and know the Father - and I lay my life down for the sheep."
To understand John's passage, read Matthew's:
Matthew 25:32, "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and he will separate the people from one another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."
So, Christ will separate the sheep from the goats. There are different groups of people- that's all you need to gather from this at the moment.

Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her."
Christ loved and died for the Church, no mention of "all peoples".

John 17:9, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."
Christ himself says he prays not for the world, but only those who are his!

We have now seen that there are the sheep, and the goats. Two groups.
The sheep are the church.
The goats are... what's left.
Matthew 7:13, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
The goats will see destruction. The goats are the majority. The sheep will see life. The sheep are few.


That's just a brief look at the atonement, the limited nature of it.



Romans 8:32, "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?"
This means that Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. The ultimate gift. There is nothing, once this gift has been given, that can top it.
Now, think about what this means for atonement. If Christ gave his life up for every person on earth: why wouldn't he freely give us all other things? But we see this is not the case.
So we see that Christ didn't give his life up for every person- only the sheep.
Perhaps "all things" needs to be clarified. Let's look to context.
Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, He did predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son. That He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestine, he also called. Whom he called, He justified. Whom He justified, He glorified."
So we see that if Christ dies, he will give us all things: this includes salvation. The entire world is not saved, thus that gift was not given to the entire world. The conclusion is that Christ only died for the sheep!

How undeserving we are!

So what is the message of this fine collection of verses? - exclusion. The message is we are all the equivalent of pond scum and for no reason in particular God has decided to use a small amount of this scum in His pond someday, while torturing the rest of the scum for being.....scum. Does this really seem like the qualities of a Good God?

It is not the message of Jesus. He was inclusive. He came to save as many people who were willing to learn how to love. And why shouldn't He? We were created good! He can redeem us to our preFall state if we let Him.

I think one of the most over analyzed words in the Bible is 'predestined' - the weirdest part about it is that it has been the cause of so many doubts concerning personal salvation. Instead of being interpreted to mean "relax, it is all going to all work out - were all included - were are predestined to have a loving relationship with Jesus because we have the capacity to love" It is used to exclude people, as if the author was not really talking about the people being redeemed, but only referencing the sinful, hell bound people. Does this mean that all are going to act upon this capacity to love - not at all. Free will and God's omniscience are paradoxical.

So once again, a verse about hope has been used to strike fear in the hearts of people who should be free people.

Another observation: Based on my experience on this board, some Christians like to speak in absolute language - never, all, every, no one. I believe this goes back to the need to feel secure. Unfortunately, this neurotic need for explicit, absolute truth gets transfered to exegesis. 'Overflowed for many!' ceases to have a general meaning - many / a lot / everyone who knocks at the door - and becomes absolute - all those who do not and are heading for Hell.
 

jiggyfly

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Thanks Tom, the New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology say that in most of the text where polys or polus it actually is an expression of "all".

Lets take a look at some of the other scriptures where polys is used.

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:15


For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19
Were all made sinners or just most or many made sinners?

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Romans 8:29

Are there some of the brethren of which Jesus is not the firstborn?


For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Hebrews 2:10

Did He leave some of the sons behind or did he bring all of the sons unto glory?





I thought that it was Strongs but I wanted to make sure. Thanks
smile.gif
 

TexUs

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So what is the message of this fine collection of verses? - exclusion.
Wrong. Notice the "in" here? It's inclusion.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.


The message is we are all the equivalent of pond scum and for no reason in particular God has decided to use a small amount of this scum in His pond someday, while torturing the rest of the scum for being.....scum. Does this really seem like the qualities of a Good God?
Yes, considering all of that scum is scum, the fact he opts to save some of it is absolutely a huge work of grace.

I think one of the most over analyzed words in the Bible is 'predestined' - the weirdest part about it is that it has been the cause of so many doubts concerning personal salvation. Instead of being interpreted to mean "relax, it is all going to all work out - were all included - were are predestined to have a loving relationship with Jesus because we have the capacity to love"
Which isn't Biblical because obviously the majority are not ever going to come to a relationship with Christ. Narrow and few find it.

Thanks Tom, the New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology say that in most of the text where polys or polus it actually is an expression of "all".
In most? Let's look how it's used.
many- 181 times
much- 50 times
great- 33 times
large- 30 times
all- 3 times

In other words, you're full of crap.

You might not like that this word is in there, but it is, so live with it.
 

jiggyfly

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In most? Let's look how it's used.
many- 181 times
much- 50 times
great- 33 times
large- 30 times
all- 3 times

In other words, you're full of crap.

You might not like that this word is in there, but it is, so live with it.

How it is used in what, a translation of the Greek texts.

Actually I'm not bothered by it at all but you sure seem to be bothered by the many scriptures that state God is reconciling ALL.


Full of crap eh, kinda hard to take it seriously coming from a guy who doesn't know the definition of Gentile.
laugh.gif
 

tomwebster

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Thanks Tom, the New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology say that in most of the text where polys or polus it actually is an expression of "all".

...


You identified the problem in your first sentence, "the New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology."

Who are the ones Christ did not die for, do you know? Christ did not die for Satan, and He did not die for the fallen angels. They are already reserved to hell; they are not covered by grace.
 

jiggyfly

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You identified the problem in your first sentence, "the New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology."

Who are the ones Christ did not die for, do you know? Christ did not die for Satan, and He did not die for the fallen angels. They are already reserved to hell; they are not covered by grace.

No comment on the scriptures I listed Tom?

Applying the same definition of which you all have said is correct then all men did not fall and all men are not sinners.
 

tomwebster

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No comment on the scriptures I listed Tom?

Applying the same definition of which you all have said is correct then all men did not fall and all men are not sinners.


There is no reason to reply, you seem to think you have all the answers.
 

jiggyfly

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There is no reason to reply, you seem to think you have all the answers.


Are you sure that your lack of reason is not fostered because you have no reply?

There were some scriptures (Rom. 5:15, 19, Romans 8:29 and Heb. 2:10) posted that are contradictory to the paradigm espoused in this thread so let's see if anyone can address these effectively.
 

TexUs

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Are you sure that your lack of reason is not fostered because you have no reply?

There were some scriptures (Rom. 5:15, 19, Romans 8:29 and Heb. 2:10) posted that are contradictory to the paradigm espoused in this thread so let's see if anyone can address these effectively.
The Bible does not contradict itself. You must look at everything in a Biblical context.

For instance if the Bible says a righteous person gets what he asks for... And it also says in another spot if we ask according to his will... These statements don't conflict. It means a righteous person can ask, and get, what they need as long as it is according to his will. Looking at these verses apart from each other would net you two different opinions which conflict- that's poor Bible study.

The same way as the fallen.

Romans 5:15 says many (limitation) have fallen, yes. However elsewhere (in the next Chapter) we see an individualistic "no not one"- individualized sense of the fallen state of man. Once again, studying these as standalone will net you two different views that contradict each other. One must study these together. Does 5:15 even contradict what was said three verses earlier in 5:12 that all sinned? It can't.
The correct conclusion when reading Romans 5 is simply Paul drawing the attention to the fact that the grace of Christ is bigger than the trespasses of men.
Adam's trespasses led to the trespasses of many. But Christ's grace is more effective than the trespasses of many.
Christ's ability to save is greater than Adam's ability to sin, in other words.