new version of OSAS?

[BarneyFife]

I would disagree. The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. Do you know this testimony?

Much love!

You misunderstand me. I do not mean there is no assurance in general. I mean simply that a faith in my sincerity when I first believed is no assurance at all. And, yes, I say without reservation, that I know the testimony of which you speak.

 

[marks]

So it begins to sound like you must trust only so long as you grab at not dying but then you have Gods hands tied and can not grow in trust or trust anything ELSE He said. Which is Israel in the desert.

I don't see this a fair telling of this view. You make it sound like someone grasping for gain.

Abraham believed God, and that believing, at that time, on that particular day, he believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Paul makes big point of saying this righteousness was before circumcision, and, I'd add, before the offering of Isaac.

John wrote that those who receive Jesus, believing in His Name, God begets them. We are born from God. Abraham received righteousness even before he demonstrated the works of faith, and likewise before pleading with God to accept Ishmael, which was not of faith.

I believed God, and God gave me righteousness. Maybe I sound like a judge of myself, but I believe, and therefore I speak.

God has tied His Own hands, in that He has committed Himself to complete our salvation.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

To each is given a measure of faith, Romans 12 something, do you mean you can lose that?

Wouldn't it be like a talent? We could bury it.

 

[BarneyFife]

Where are you seeing "no longer abide"? I can't think of where that expression might be used in the Bible.

What point was there in Jesus saying "IF you abide in me" if there was no chance for the abiding to cease?

 

[amadeus]

I'm sorry if I've given you the impression that I consider myself judge of other people's salvation.

To be clear, I am not.

Much love!

Give God the glory!

 

[BarneyFife]

So...you are saying (to my mind) that you only have to believe you will never die to be saved and remain saved. Yet Israel believed they would not die (because it would have been sheer insanity to step under that wall of water if you didn’t believe God that He would save your life, so they obviously believed Him). And God was true and they did not die. Then, they didn’t continue to believe and trust Him about food and water and He was displeased that they did not continue in trust, remain in trust, abide in trust, so He let them die there and didn’t let them enter Into what He had prepared for them. So if God never changes, how is it that I could believe Him that I won’t die (as Israel did) but if I don’t believe Him about temporal provision (as Israel did), that I will be allowed to enter what He has prepared? It makes no sense. It’s great delusion to expect I could do EXACTLY what Israel did and get a different result.

We know that they died, but we don't that they were lost. The history of Israel is an object lesson, not literal, Soteriological Theology for them. It seems doubtful to me that Uzzah was lost just for trying to protect the ark of the covenant by reflex. The incident was recorded to illustrate that even unintentional, non-premeditated disobedience is deadly business.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There's nothing there that comes across to me as either unbelievable or odd. Odd to experience! But I don't think that we experience things like this to be odd. God has as many ways to train His children as He has children.

Much love!

But it’s an odd feeling. As if I went somewhere and cannot find myself. I spent so many years practicing trust and being tempted to worry and insisting on not allowing worry but then falling into it and turning back to trust. I got so tired sometimes and thought He would make me live in that torment and the darkness of trust forever. Because it is darkness. You don’t see any light, just the darkness of trust, narrow and confining. If anything, my eyes saw reasons NOT to trust. Finally, I came to a point where...I was fighting off the temptations to worry more easily and wasn’t in such constant harassment. I think it was right after I said, if it’s your will that I continue in this harassment and darkness until I die, then I want to continue in it because I know you are doing what is good for me, but I will not lie to you and say I like it. Just help me not to get tired and give up. So when the harassment’s got better and not so unrelenting, that’s when I saw I lacked love and asked and He did something to my passions. Have they been crucified...? Is it when I willed to remain where He had me and to trust even if I had to be there until I died that...oh never mind, I should just stay in this rest as long as I can and not worry about where my enemies have gone or whether they will be back.

I should not try to tinker with whatever He’s done to my will either. It’s only a little bit distressing that it feels like I’m doing nothing. I can’t even seem to prefer any food over any other food. My will won’t even help me decide what I want to eat, so I just grab the quickest and easiest thing. My will used to direct me and say, oooh, I want a salad, or I want Cheetos! I guess I’m a little bit scared that I will have to remain in this complete dryness of will for as long as I had to remain in the darkness of trust...

okay, I’m not talking about myself any more. Someone else talk about themselves and what you’re dealing with now. I beg you.

 

[marks]

None of which means we can't forsake God!

Just the same, we can know that God will NEVER forsake us!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I cut off the last part because I want to address the first two first of all. The disciples saw God and ate meals together with Him, including Judas.

when Jesus said one of you will betray me, they asked, oh no, is it me Lord?? Why would they ask that? How are you more certain than they were?

That then would be a "no" answer?

Romans 8 tells us the the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. Do you have that testimony?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I believed God, and God gave me righteousness. Maybe I sound like a judge of myself, but I believe, and therefore I speak.

God said Abraham was righteous through his trust. God made that determination and judgement. Abraham did not make that determination and judgement, God did. Do you know if you are trusting as much or as radically as Abraham trusted? Are you so certain that if God told you to sacrifice your own child that you would trust Him enough to do it?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That then would be a "no" answer?

Romans 8 tells us the the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. Do you have that testimony?

Much love!

Yes, I do. But it does not make me trust myself.

 

[amadeus]

I cut off the last part because I want to address the first two first of all. The disciples saw God and ate meals together with Him, including Judas.

when Jesus said one of you will betray me, they asked, oh no, is it me Lord?? Why would they ask that? How are you more certain than they were?

Amen!

 

[marks]

You think God has given you an unfair advantage over the apple of His eye? Why would you think that if God is no respecter of persons?

He who touches Israel touches the apple of God's eye, this refers to God's pupil. Touching Israel is like poking God in the eye, is what this verse is telling us.

What does it mean to those under the first covenant that the new covenant is based upon "better promises"? Does God making a "better promise" to someone, does that make Him a "respector of persons"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, I do. But it does not make me trust myself.

I'm not saying you should trust yourself. But you should trust God. Trust what He says.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He who touches Israel touches the apple of God's eye, this refers to God's pupil. Touching Israel is like poking God in the eye, is what this verse is telling us.

What does it mean to those under the first covenant that the new covenant is based upon "better promises"? Does God making a "better promise" to someone, does that make Him a "respector of persons"?

Much love!

It’s still based on trust.

 

[marks]

Consider the unnamed prophet of God sent out of Judah onto Jeroboam the first king of the 10 tribes after their separation from Judah. [I Kings 13] He was certainly a man of God walking with God and in God's Word. He prophesied about King Josiah of Judah by name more than 300 hundred years before Josiah's birth. That prophecy came true [II Kings 23:16ff] , but consider the end the prophet sent out of Judah. He disobeyed God failing to check in with God and was slain by a lion as he made his way home. He never arrived at his home... He failed God actually stopping his walk with God! But, his prophecy came true!

I think that when we try to define the New Covenant as if were the same as the first covenant, that we can reach erroneous conclusions.

In the Bible, was this man born again? I don't see that in the Bible until Jesus died and rose again, as in joining to that death and resurrection is what provides for our rebirth.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Yes, I do. But it does not make me trust myself.

You recognize what many people, I believe, fail to recognize that until the "old man" in you is completely dead there is something within yourself that cannot be trusted. God wins every battle in which He engages. When a person repeatedly suppresses or quenches the Holy Spirit of God in himself, he puts God outside of the battle. Then even if the person fights against temptation... all alone he is going to lose!

 

[marks]

Do we give an actual God the glory or do we glorify an often misunderstood or even unread Bible on our shelf?

I would suppose that's a question that each of us need answer for ourselves. I believe we benefit in knowing what God's book says.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think that when we try to define the New Covenant as if were the same as the first covenant, that we can reach erroneous conclusions.

In the Bible, was this man born again? I don't see that in the Bible until Jesus died and rose again, as in joining to that death and resurrection is what provides for our rebirth.

Much love!

I don’t know. But will you say that if he wasn’t born again, Abraham will be in hell?

 

[marks]

Too many who have received the Holy Spirit get into the habit of quenching the Holy Spirit and following their own heads instead of Jesus!
Is that not the way into a ditch or a bottomless pit?

Is receiving the Holy Spirit part of the journey into the abyss? I would answer no. This is what keeps us from the abyss.

Much love!