new version of OSAS?

[mailmandan]

You are describing the difference between "if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself", and, "If we disown him, he will also disown us" - 2 Timothy 2:12-13. You did not disown him, you were faithless. You can have little faith in God's activity in your life and you remain saved, but you cannot outright reject salvation in Christ and remain saved.

It's one thing to have faith in Christ for salvation and yet another thing to have faith in God's activity in our lives. There are Christians who sincerely have faith in Christ for salvation and are saved, yet at times don't have much faith in Christ just to get them through their day or to deal with circumstances in their lives. This is the area in which we continue to grow towards maturity as believers.

In regards to 2 Timothy 2:13, I see a contrast with, "if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him." If we endure, We shall also reign with Him -- AND -- If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

"By contrast, the latter "deny Him and faithless" points to the opposite of died with Him, endure and reign with Him. Jesus Himself warned of the danger of denying Him in Matthew 10:33 - "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.." To "deny him" here does not point merely to a temporary weakness of faith, as in the case of Peter who denied Jesus three times during a moment of weakness (Luke 22:54-62), but is referring to life in it's entirety. The inevitable result is that "He will also deny us."

The warning is repeated in the final sentence, "if we are faithless, he abideth faithful." To be "faithless" is in the present tense and denotes this as the habitual attitude, not a temporary lapse of faith. But in contrast to human faithlessness, "He remains faithful," faithful to His word and righteous character and His warning that unbelievers will be rejected.

 

[Cooper]

Im one of them. I do not always remain in trust (abide). I can get caught in worries about what will happen to me when I can no longer work since I have no husband or children and live hand to mouth with no retirement saved. I know He said God knows what I have need of and will provide for me but I stop remaining in trust and turn to worry sometimes. I know He still remains in me even when I’m untrusting and unbelieving of what He promised, but sometimes I don’t remain in trust. So He abides in me, but I don’t always abide in Him. I stumble in trust sometimes and begin to think I must do as the world says and collect more than enough for the day.

We all go through those trials and at 76 years of age He has brought me through many troubled waters, and looking back, I can see how he has undertaken, not in ways I would have wanted or expected, but now I am happier than if things had gone my way, so now I sit back and put my cares on the Lord. It has taken a long time for things to work out, but they have, and I am content.

David in the Old Testament went through terrible bouts of despondency, it is only natural, but I always remember the text I was given when I went through the waters of baptism which was "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding, but trust in Him, and He will direct your paths."

When I say we need to remain faithful and to keep trusting I perhaps leave myself open to misunderstanding. What I am really thinking of is those people who after knowing Christ later become atheists. They reject God totally, blaspheme Him and become anti Christ, even denouncing him in public, and that is not you, I know that from your posts. Do not worry, put all your cares on Him, for we serve a loving God. I pray God's blessing on you, a child of God, amen.
.

 

[Cooper]

Yes. And believing that is not abiding is not the relevant one in the subject at hand.

And so, considering this then, the idea and argument of losing salvation because of not abiding is rendered null and void. For him who does not abide will have been manifested as not a true believer or disciple, which makes him not have been saved at all.

Tong
R3366

Those who no longer abide in Him must have believed previously, or they could not cease.
.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You are describing the difference between "if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself", and, "If we disown him, he will also disown us" - 2 Timothy 2:12-13. You did not disown him, you were faithless. You can have little faith in God's activity in your life and you remain saved, but you cannot outright reject salvation in Christ and remain saved.

So...you are saying (to my mind) that you only have to believe you will never die to be saved and remain saved. Yet Israel believed they would not die (because it would have been sheer insanity to step under that wall of water if you didn’t believe God that He would save your life, so they obviously believed Him). And God was true and they did not die. Then, they didn’t continue to believe and trust Him about food and water and He was displeased that they did not continue in trust, remain in trust, abide in trust, so He let them die there and didn’t let them enter Into what He had prepared for them. So if God never changes, how is it that I could believe Him that I won’t die (as Israel did) but if I don’t believe Him about temporal provision (as Israel did), that I will be allowed to enter what He has prepared? It makes no sense. It’s great delusion to expect I could do EXACTLY what Israel did and get a different result.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We all go through those trials and at 76 years of age He has brought me through many troubled waters, and looking back, I can see how he has undertaken, not in ways I would have wanted or expected, but now I am happier than if thing had gone my way, so now I sit back and put my cares on the Lord. It has taken a long time for things to work out, but they have, and I am content.

David in the Old Testament went through terrible bouts of despondency, it is only natural, but I always remember the text I was given when I went through the waters of baptism which was "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding, but trust in Him, and He will direct your paths."

When I say we need to remain faithful and to keep trusting I perhaps leave myself open to misunderstanding. What I am really thinking of is those people who after knowing Christ later become atheists. They reject God totally, blaspheme Him and become anti Christ, even denouncing him in public, and that is not you, I know that from your posts. Do not worry, put all your cares on Him, for we serve a loving God. I pray God's blessing on you, a child of God, amen.
.

Im not worried now. I have seen His unbelievable patience with me. But I do take any unbelief or mistrust in me very seriously because Paul warned me to see that my heart doesn’t later become evil and unbelieving and mistrusting as with the hearts of those who died in the desert after He lost patience with them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's one thing to have faith in Christ for salvation and yet another thing to have faith in God's activity in our lives. There are Christians who sincerely have faith in Christ for salvation and are saved, yet at times don't have much faith in Christ just to get them through their day or to deal with circumstances in their lives. This is the area in which we continue to grow towards maturity as believers.

It is the 3 servants and the talents. That growth in trust is the return He expects in the parable.

 

[Corlove13]

So, I ask you in this new thread: what do you believe about the new version of OSAS?

The version that says that if you stop believing, you even continue to be saved?

Lol "new version of osas" you going to get that answer!...

 

[Cooper]

Im not worried now. I have seen His unbelievable patience with me. But I do take any unbelief or mistrust in me very seriously because Paul warned me to see that my heart doesn’t later become evil and unbelieving and mistrusting as with the hearts of those who died in the desert after He lost patience with them.

They hardened their hearts and went after other gods, rejecting the I AM, proving the error of OSAS. That is not us. Take care, my sister in Christ.
.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We all go through those trials

count the testing of your trust as all joy because it will produce patience and an endurance of trust

 

[Renniks]

That’s right. Jesus defined believing as one that abides.

Some do not abiding there as that defines believing. Instead they read and take abiding there as something else, such as though it is something separate from believing.

Tong
R3358

Do we need to quote all the verses about falling away? If it's impossible, they would not be in there.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So...you are saying (to my mind) that you only have to believe you will never die to be saved and remain saved. Yet Israel believed they would not die (because it would have been sheer insanity to step under that wall of water if you didn’t believe God that He would save your life, so they obviously believed Him). And God was true and they did not die. Then, they didn’t continue to believe and trust Him about food and water and He was displeased that they did not continue in trust, remain in trust, abide in trust, so He let them die there and didn’t let them enter Into what He had prepared for them. So if God never changes, how is it that I could believe Him that I won’t die (as Israel did) but if I don’t believe Him about temporal provision (as Israel did), that I will be allowed to enter what He has prepared? It makes no sense. It’s great delusion to expect I could do EXACTLY what Israel did and get a different result.

But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. Acts 7:39
​

Have you gone back to 'Egypt' in your heart? Or are you just struggling with the flesh in your desire to know and love and serve God like the rest of us?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It is the 3 servants and the talents. That growth in trust is the return He expects in the parable.

Trust manifesting in deeds of righteousness.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Then is a thing of the past.

It's exactly what you said can not happen. And you wondered why any believer would do that. Well it did happen, so ask him why he went from believer to full fledged atheist.

Just because that's not your experience, and you are sure it never will be, that doesn't mean you can project your thoughts and experiences onto everybody else.

Nope. Nothing to ask regarding that. As I said it was a thing of the past. What he will say really does not matter much nor prove or disprove a doctrine.

Just keep in mind what Jesus said concerning believing in John 8:31.

Tong
R3369

 

[Tong2020]

mmm....I don’t think so. The whole abide in Me thing and the if My word remains in you thing, it isn’t just to believe you will live forever.

How is His word to not worry about money and provision remaining in me, or I in it, if I am worrying about money?

To me, abiding means remaining in trust of all He has said. You say that even if I am not remaining in that trust, I am abiding. To me, that is like saying, even when I’m not abiding, I am still abiding, so it makes no sense to me...

What I said is that, it is not the abiding that I was talking about, in relation to John 8:31.

If worrying is not abiding for you, what can I say, except that it is not that which I was talking about.

Tong
R3370

 

[kcnalp]

May God have mercy on the OSAS judges on Judgment Day!

Matthew 7:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. Acts 7:39
​

Have you gone back to 'Egypt' in your heart? Or are you just struggling with the flesh in your desire to know and love and serve God like the rest of us?

Actually, where I currently am, unbelievable as it may sound, is that I recently came to see trust wasn’t enough and that I lacked love and that I was just like everyone else, full of resentments at the selfishnesses of others and muttering inside at how they kept treating me. Christian and non Christian, we are all the same in this lack of love. I knew this anger was murder but I couldn’t stop it. Oh my gosh how I tried to talk myself out of it all the time, but I was just like everyone else, only capable of loving how the world loves. Every morning I would wake and see the mess in the kitchen they all had left for me, not caring that they were being so piggish and sloppy and making so much work for me and so I would mutter and murder them all as I cleaned it up. So I told God, I see now that trust isn’t enough if I lack Your love. You will have to give me love or I will forever remain this way. I know You want to give me this love and I know You will because You are pleased to help poor women like me who see their great poverty of Spirit and ask for what they lack.

Soon after, He...did something to my passions. He seems to have knocked them out or put them to sleep. They no longer rule over me. It’s like...by silencing those enemies of mine, satan no longer can stir them up to harass me. I know it sounds so ridiculous that all we have to do is ask for what we lack, so why don’t we just ask for crying out loud, but...if a man doesn’t see he lacks something, he won’t ask for it, and I did not see I lacked love. I really didn’t. I thought my problem was the selfishness and lack of care of others and if they would just be kinder I would not HAVE a murdering problem.

Now that I see they can’t help it just like I couldn’t help it and that we all are so destitute and not understanding true love, I have such pity to see people now where I was, being tossed around by their passions and thinking it is everyone else who lacks love and not seeing they lack it too.

That’s where I am currently. At first I thought He hadn’t given me more love but had just calmed my passions, but I think I just couldn’t recognize more love at first as pity and forgiveness. But pity, compassion and forgiveness IS love. I just didn’t recognize it as love at first.

Now, He is...doing something with my will but I don’t understand it yet so I can’t talk about it with any understanding except to say...I seem to have no power of will right now. My will was motored by my passions and...there appears to now be nothing to motor my will now that my passions are silenced. It’s quite odd.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What I said is that, it is not the abiding that I was talking about, in relation to John 8:31.

If worrying is not abiding for you, what can I say, except that it is not that which I was talking about.

Tong
R3370

what then do you see as “remaining in My word.”

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes. And believing that is not abiding, is not the relevant one in the subject at hand.

And so, considering this then, the idea and argument of losing salvation because of not abiding is rendered null and void. For him who does not abide will have been manifested as not a true believer or disciple, which makes him not have been saved at all.

Those who no longer abide in Him must have believed previously, or they could not cease.
.

Yes they believed, but not the kind that Jesus spelled out in John 8:31. Such believing is that which is from man and not that which comes from God. It’s like every person, even the non Christian, can believe that he can do this and that, but ceases in time. That is the kind of believing that one who profess to believe and later ceases.

Tong
R3371

 

[kcnalp]

OSAS is a Satanic myth! The OSAS judges are in deep trouble with God.

Matthew 7:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

 

[ChristisGod]

God won't accept sin in His presence, so either He's cleansed us from sin like He said, or ain't none of us gonna be there.

Much love!

That is a misnomer. Do you have scripture for that ?

And if that were the real case why did God allow satan into his presence several times in heaven after he fell ?