veteran
New Member
Hello 'Walking in Grace'. I don't expect everyone will agree with what I'm saying on Paul's Messages in Romans 11. And that because of men's traditions that have been teaching many of my Christian brethren a falsehood that only Jews are Israel.
Already you've missed who all Paul was speaking about in Romans 11 when he was addressing the Gentile Romans. The start of Paul's subject in Romans 11 to the Gentiles is specifically about the seed of Israel, and the relationship between them and believing Gentiles, and God's inheritance. If you had truly read your Old Testament history, you'd most likely have understood that Jews only represent a portion of the seed of Israel, only two tribes. See if you can find Jewish scholars claiming the Jews are all 12 tribes of Israel.
That vail you speak of is not only going to be lifted off all blinded Israel in our near future, but also upon all nations. It will occur when Christ returns. Apostle Paul linked that event with the last trump of 1 Cor.15 when quoting from Isaiah 25. You see, to truly understand who Paul was speaking about with that blindness, you have to first understand the OT prophecy where Paul was pulling from about it. Isaiah 28 & 29 is a good start. That vail Paul speaks of in 2 Cor.3 is mainly upon the unbelieving Jews of his Jewish brethren. But alas, the Jews only made up two tribes of Israel, while the ten tribes were separated from Judah in the holy land, and instead scattered to the north and to the west, as written (anyone interested in where that's written in God's Word?).
That's right. We ALL must believe on God's Promised Saviour Jesus Christ unto His Salvation. Why would you think I'm inferring that flesh Israel is not subject to that, just because of when God will remove blindness from all the seed of Israel in the future? How in the world can you miss Paul's message in Rom.11 about God blinding many of Israel to make them jealous, so His Salvation would also go to the Gentiles?
Why are you trying to erase what Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about God having put blindness upon many of Israel? And Paul's declaration of a future time when their blindness will be removed? Paul was specific that blindness was not put upon ALL the seed of Israel, but only a part of Israel (Rom.11:25). Sadly, you don't have a clue of which "part" of Israel Paul was speaking of. But those without that blindness well know.
Even our Lord Jesus showed how that blindness was upon the unbelieving Jews at His first coming. I've got news for you. Many of our Christian brethren have that blindness upon them too! That's what Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2 about the great apostasy (falling awaay) is about for the last days. Or didn't you read our Lord's parable of the ten virgins with five of them being foolish? That blindness is about not having spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear.
Like I've said in other posts, the idea that all Israel of the flesh refused Christ Jesus is a false teaching. It's even Biblical ignorance, since Christ's elect that were first called in The Gospel were flesh Israelites! Shall I make a list of them for you? Saying such things that all the seed of Israel refused Christ Jesus shows how much you need to rightly understand Paul's message to Gentiles in Romans 11 about being conceited for being graffed in.
You might... want to study the Book of Hosea more, to find out who all that 'them that are not a people' prophecy is about. It was specifically given by God through Hosea to the ten tribes with Ephraim as head. Not Judah, but to the ten tribes of Israel only. By The Gospel going to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten tribes), that's how It would also go to the Gentiles. It's because the ten tribes were scattered among the Gentiles before the Jews were.
Sorry, you don't have authority to change what God has already declared about His promises to Israel.
Jer 31:1-40
1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.
2 Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.
3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save Thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He That scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with My goodness, saith the LORD.
15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.
19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore My bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.
21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.
24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.
25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
(KJV)
Before I post the break down of Romans chapter 11 i would like for you to consider this bit of background:
Veteran said: “What Apostle Paul was correcting among those Gentiles was how they were puffed up in thinking ONLY THEY were saved, and that God had cast away the seed of Israel. Paul shows differently in that Romans 11 chapter, and even warned those Gentiles to not be so conceited lest they also be cut off."
My reply: That is correct veteran, and along with this we do not want to miss that Paul’s reason for being so concerned about this is that the presentation of God’s merciful grace to Paul’s natural Jewish relatives was dependent upon the Gentiles preaching work toward them. The attitude many of the Gentiles were manifesting was affecting the depth and zeal in which they sought to impart the message of Christ to the Jews for the sake of their salvation. This is why Paul had elaborated the importance of the preaching work in chapter 10, showing how that preaching work is God’s grace delivered to save Jew and Gentile alike. I want to be sure you see that we are not yet waiting for the vail of blindness to be lifted off of Israel as though it is yet to the future, but it has been happening for a remnant of them all along in each generation since the Church began to preach the message of Christ.
Already you've missed who all Paul was speaking about in Romans 11 when he was addressing the Gentile Romans. The start of Paul's subject in Romans 11 to the Gentiles is specifically about the seed of Israel, and the relationship between them and believing Gentiles, and God's inheritance. If you had truly read your Old Testament history, you'd most likely have understood that Jews only represent a portion of the seed of Israel, only two tribes. See if you can find Jewish scholars claiming the Jews are all 12 tribes of Israel.
That vail you speak of is not only going to be lifted off all blinded Israel in our near future, but also upon all nations. It will occur when Christ returns. Apostle Paul linked that event with the last trump of 1 Cor.15 when quoting from Isaiah 25. You see, to truly understand who Paul was speaking about with that blindness, you have to first understand the OT prophecy where Paul was pulling from about it. Isaiah 28 & 29 is a good start. That vail Paul speaks of in 2 Cor.3 is mainly upon the unbelieving Jews of his Jewish brethren. But alas, the Jews only made up two tribes of Israel, while the ten tribes were separated from Judah in the holy land, and instead scattered to the north and to the west, as written (anyone interested in where that's written in God's Word?).
Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to whom? To everyone that does what? To everyone that believes. (Romans 10:4)
And everyone that believes will do what, whether Jew or Gentile? Romans 10:9-13 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
That's right. We ALL must believe on God's Promised Saviour Jesus Christ unto His Salvation. Why would you think I'm inferring that flesh Israel is not subject to that, just because of when God will remove blindness from all the seed of Israel in the future? How in the world can you miss Paul's message in Rom.11 about God blinding many of Israel to make them jealous, so His Salvation would also go to the Gentiles?
Why are you trying to erase what Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about God having put blindness upon many of Israel? And Paul's declaration of a future time when their blindness will be removed? Paul was specific that blindness was not put upon ALL the seed of Israel, but only a part of Israel (Rom.11:25). Sadly, you don't have a clue of which "part" of Israel Paul was speaking of. But those without that blindness well know.
Even our Lord Jesus showed how that blindness was upon the unbelieving Jews at His first coming. I've got news for you. Many of our Christian brethren have that blindness upon them too! That's what Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2 about the great apostasy (falling awaay) is about for the last days. Or didn't you read our Lord's parable of the ten virgins with five of them being foolish? That blindness is about not having spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear.
Israel of the flesh did not believe. If you incorrectly read some passages of scripture you could wrongly conclude that their not believing was God’s doing. That would be the fallacy. What you would be missing is that it was not yet God’s time for grace to begin being preached, and so he merely permitted them to go the way of their own stubborn unwillingness to see or to hear, and did not at that time send help to them. But that help begin being sent through the preaching work of the Gentiles. Romans 10:19 “But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.”
Like I've said in other posts, the idea that all Israel of the flesh refused Christ Jesus is a false teaching. It's even Biblical ignorance, since Christ's elect that were first called in The Gospel were flesh Israelites! Shall I make a list of them for you? Saying such things that all the seed of Israel refused Christ Jesus shows how much you need to rightly understand Paul's message to Gentiles in Romans 11 about being conceited for being graffed in.
You might... want to study the Book of Hosea more, to find out who all that 'them that are not a people' prophecy is about. It was specifically given by God through Hosea to the ten tribes with Ephraim as head. Not Judah, but to the ten tribes of Israel only. By The Gospel going to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten tribes), that's how It would also go to the Gentiles. It's because the ten tribes were scattered among the Gentiles before the Jews were.
Sorry, you don't have authority to change what God has already declared about His promises to Israel.
Jer 31:1-40
1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.
2 Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.
3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save Thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He That scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with My goodness, saith the LORD.
15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.
19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore My bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.
21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.
24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.
25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
(KJV)