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Why Jews And Gentiles Are Kept Separate ??

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by dan p, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Hello 'Walking in Grace'. I don't expect everyone will agree with what I'm saying on Paul's Messages in Romans 11. And that because of men's traditions that have been teaching many of my Christian brethren a falsehood that only Jews are Israel.

    Already you've missed who all Paul was speaking about in Romans 11 when he was addressing the Gentile Romans. The start of Paul's subject in Romans 11 to the Gentiles is specifically about the seed of Israel, and the relationship between them and believing Gentiles, and God's inheritance. If you had truly read your Old Testament history, you'd most likely have understood that Jews only represent a portion of the seed of Israel, only two tribes. See if you can find Jewish scholars claiming the Jews are all 12 tribes of Israel.

    That vail you speak of is not only going to be lifted off all blinded Israel in our near future, but also upon all nations. It will occur when Christ returns. Apostle Paul linked that event with the last trump of 1 Cor.15 when quoting from Isaiah 25. You see, to truly understand who Paul was speaking about with that blindness, you have to first understand the OT prophecy where Paul was pulling from about it. Isaiah 28 & 29 is a good start. That vail Paul speaks of in 2 Cor.3 is mainly upon the unbelieving Jews of his Jewish brethren. But alas, the Jews only made up two tribes of Israel, while the ten tribes were separated from Judah in the holy land, and instead scattered to the north and to the west, as written (anyone interested in where that's written in God's Word?).

    That's right. We ALL must believe on God's Promised Saviour Jesus Christ unto His Salvation. Why would you think I'm inferring that flesh Israel is not subject to that, just because of when God will remove blindness from all the seed of Israel in the future? How in the world can you miss Paul's message in Rom.11 about God blinding many of Israel to make them jealous, so His Salvation would also go to the Gentiles?

    Why are you trying to erase what Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about God having put blindness upon many of Israel? And Paul's declaration of a future time when their blindness will be removed? Paul was specific that blindness was not put upon ALL the seed of Israel, but only a part of Israel (Rom.11:25). Sadly, you don't have a clue of which "part" of Israel Paul was speaking of. But those without that blindness well know.

    Even our Lord Jesus showed how that blindness was upon the unbelieving Jews at His first coming. I've got news for you. Many of our Christian brethren have that blindness upon them too! That's what Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2 about the great apostasy (falling awaay) is about for the last days. Or didn't you read our Lord's parable of the ten virgins with five of them being foolish? That blindness is about not having spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear.

    Like I've said in other posts, the idea that all Israel of the flesh refused Christ Jesus is a false teaching. It's even Biblical ignorance, since Christ's elect that were first called in The Gospel were flesh Israelites! Shall I make a list of them for you? Saying such things that all the seed of Israel refused Christ Jesus shows how much you need to rightly understand Paul's message to Gentiles in Romans 11 about being conceited for being graffed in.

    You might... want to study the Book of Hosea more, to find out who all that 'them that are not a people' prophecy is about. It was specifically given by God through Hosea to the ten tribes with Ephraim as head. Not Judah, but to the ten tribes of Israel only. By The Gospel going to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten tribes), that's how It would also go to the Gentiles. It's because the ten tribes were scattered among the Gentiles before the Jews were.

    Sorry, you don't have authority to change what God has already declared about His promises to Israel.

    Jer 31:1-40
    1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.
    2 Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.
    3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
    4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
    5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
    6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
    7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save Thy people, the remnant of Israel.
    8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
    9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
    10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He That scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
    11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
    12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
    13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
    14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with My goodness, saith the LORD.
    15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
    16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
    17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
    18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.
    19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
    20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore My bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.
    21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
    22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
    23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.
    24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.
    25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.
    26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
    27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
    28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
    29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
    30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
    31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
    36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
    37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
    38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
    39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
    40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

  2. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    Sorry veteran,

    But you are so wrong. I acquaint Jews with Judaism. And the term did become synonymous. I have done tremendous amounts of research concerning all twelve tribes and believe that the mixing of the fleshly seed into the world foreshadowed that God one day deal with the entire world as the land of Israel. The Israel of revelation chapter 7 is that world-wide Israel as to the flesh. It is not the Israel of the Mid East today, who are but one small part of it. And many among the Israel of the Mid East today are merely as foreigners among that Israel of Revelation 7. The entire world has become God's field for cultivation in the flesh to sew the seed where from comes the spiritual finished product.

    As I said, the word "Jew" in the world came to be synonymous with Judaism. All twelve tribes practiced Judaism.

    You miss it. You see it through rose colored glasses expecting that jealousy to work good in all of them. But that is dependent upon the individual hearts. Only the truly meek ones will respond to it in a positive way. The remainder will merely grow yet stronger in their hate and die weeping and gnashing their teeth on the others. You assume that because all are not made jealous to the good that God has somehow failed. Paul never entertained the idea you purport, but only that through the preaching God "might save some of them", just as he said at Romans 11: 14. And you cannot have that both ways. By your way of seeing it, it would be futile for Paul to think he could open any of their eyes through preaching as by your description that would be like fighting against God.

    Have I tried to erase it? Or, have I merely understood it? I don't have a clue, hey? I would suggest you double or even triple check for yourself.

    Paul's declaration of the future time for the veil to be removed is not when it is suddenly removed, but when it is become complete and the full number of elect has been unveiled. Until then they have been being unveiled in small numbers throughout each generation via the preaching work of Christ. That sense of future you speak of only refers to the time it is all completed and no more are left to be unveiled.

    For then is the fulfillment of this time: Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."

    You are right that many of our Christian brethren have that blindness upon them too. And they who have that blindness do not know it. Why? It is because they deceive themselves through the power of their own reasoning.

    When you say that the idea that all Israel of the flesh refused Christ Jesus is a false teaching, you are woefully wrong. Romans 9:8a That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God." The ones that did not reject Christ were not children by virtue of the flesh alone.

    Thank you for your suggestion to study the book of Hosea. I very much ponder that book and will continue to heed it.

  3. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Wait a minute. Are you now saying the same thing I've been saying all along? You sound like you agree that God split Israel into two separate houses, and that the Jews only make up one of those two houses. Agree or disagree?

    Jewish scholars agree that the Jews mean only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and a portion of Levi, and that the ten tribes of Israel that were separated from them and scattered have been lost to the world. The Jewish scholars do NOT claim 'Jews' mean all the 12 tribes.

    Synonomous to whom? Not to the Jewish scholars themselves, for they claim to be of only two tribes, Judah and Benjamin. Would you like to see documentation on that?

    The religion of Judaism is NOT what all Israel followed, because that religion came out of a remnant of Jews who returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity. The MAJORITY of Israel of the ten tribes were not even with them at that time, already having been scattered before that Babylon captivity! God's Word shows the history of that from 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 18, and who returned to Jerusalem in the Book of Ezra.

    The practice of Judaism is Phariseeism, a religious movement our Lord Jesus condemned involving their 'own' traditions that made the commandment of God of none effect (Matt.15:6). Judaism is not the Old Covenant, but instead is Babylonian Talmudism that formed the sects of Pharisees and Sadduccees. The Talmud is their "tradition" that overrides much of God's Word.

    I have missed nothing, but understand Apostle Paul perfectly well. I'm not Jewish nor a religious Jew either, so trying to apply that jealousy trip to me won't work. But what Paul warned Gentile believers in Romans 11 about being puffed against the seed of Israel definitely appears to apply to you.

    The futility I see is with your erroneous and unbiblical idea that the seed of Israel is cast away, especially when Apostle Paul said just the opposite in Romans 11...

    Rom 11:1-5
    1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    You really don't understand it, but you're not alone. Some preachers even go so far as to claim that "remnant according to the election of grace" is about Gentiles only, when Paul was specifically saying that about the flesh seed of Israel.

    So what about that? How is it that Paul showed like with Elijah's day, that God had preserved to Himself that election of the seed of Israel under Grace? Does that grace Paul mentioned in Rom.11:5 have anything to do with Christ's Salvation? Even more so, did Apostle Paul come to believe on Christ Jesus by himself, or was it by preaching from a Gentile? What about Christ's other Apostles? Did Gentiles preach to them about Christ Jesus also? What about the Old Testament saints, did they first have to hear about The Saviour from Gentiles, or did our Heavenly Father Himself show them?

    I can agree with that pretty much. But that unvailing certainly didn't happen with the Gentiles first, and then to Israel. It happenned the other way, to Israel first. And then it was Israel that took The Gospel to the Gentiles. Now, just which Israel IS that with The Gospel of Jesus Christ, taking It to the nations? That's the mystery many have yet to discover which I declare openly. And I'm not talking about the Jews of the "house of Judah" (though some of them are included, but by no means are the majority of the ones I speak of).

    Then what our Lord Jesus answered His Apostles here is not true?...

    Matt 13:11
    11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    How is it that our Lord Jesus showed God's Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven is NOT given to some? How does that NOT show how God Himself has blinded some, but not others? This is basic Gospel teaching 101 directly from God's Word, not the watered down 'milk' versions taught in the religious seminaries of men found in houses of vanity.

    If you were correct, it would mean ALL Christ's Apostles refused Him, along with all others of the seed of Israel. You cannot modify what Paul taught in Romans 11 about the flesh seed remnant according to the election of GRACE with Paul's Romans 9 teaching of spiritual Israel. That would mean Paul contradicted himself in Romans 11 about that flesh seed according to the election of grace from GOD's choosing. Paul did not contradict himself. God chose the seed of Israel to bring His Salvation Plan to all nations. And just because a portion of Israel refused does not mean God failed to accomplish through an elect seed of Israel what He said He would do.

    Rom 11:25
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Rom 11:7
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

    That "blindness in part" must be understood with what Paul said in verse 25 about the election having obtained it. What election? That same "remnant according to the election of grace" he first mentioned in verse 5, which is about an elect SEED of Israel.

    Let me know if you need some help with it.

  4. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    Thank you, veteran.

    However, you said to me, “trying to apply that jealousy trip to me won't work. But what Paul warned Gentile believers in Romans 11 about being puffed against the seed of Israel definitely appears to apply to you."

    That sounds like a parting line to me. The Proverb counsels that before the quarrel breaks out it is better for one to take their leave.

    Jah be able to bless the spirit you show.

    PS/ I do recognize the division of the two and ten tribes. I believe it is all a foreshadow of things taking place in the claimed churches of Christ today. And The two tribe kingdom alone pictured those that would be rulers with Christ.

    The Ten tribe kingdom parrallels the laity from which comes the Great Crowd.
  5. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    That foolishness tells me you have no idea who the ten tribes are today. But you are not alone; the majority of those that are of the tribes of Israel do not know their identity.
  6. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    I know that most look for fulfillment of these things in the flesh and that is where they will be left.

    1 Corinthians 1:27 "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"

    Therein is that foolish nation. Those wise in their worldly wisdom, looking for things to be fulfilled in their fleshly arena, are not even able to discern, let alone see that nation.

    Romans 10:19 "But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."

    They imagine themselves, (Romans 2:20a) "An instructor of the foolish,"

    In the actual fulfilment the associate king/priests with Christ are chosen from out of all of the nations of this earth as we see Rev chapter 7, typified as God's Israel of the flesh today, that is, as those who contend to be worshipers of the true God, His people. But as it were, it is, Romans 9:6b "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
  7. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    I do not claim to be anyone special. I am not a prophet, priest, nor king. Indeed, I am far too unworthy to even be considered to touch their utensils.

    Matthew 13:43 "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

    I see that there are no fleshly groups that shine as brightly as the sun, though all of these groups claim to be God's children.. Every fleshly group has its crust of improprieties preventing it from shining. One is no better than the other. All they seem to accomplish in the world is hate and war and grief.

    Yet, I believe Jesus' words at Matthew 13:43. And I believe that the reason I do not see that shining from groups is that no groups formed in this flesh are any more than man's inventions. That is why they cause hate and war and grief among themselves and the world.

    The filthy smoke caused of the burning of the filthy exteriors of these groups tries to hide the glitter of the individual pieces of precious metals they trample.

    I believe that precious metal is about to be revealed as God removes the cause of the thick smoke that hides it. That precious metal will then 'shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    'Walking in grace', sounds like you're trying to justify your own beliefs by some internal struggle you're having. We cannot just pull out a Bible verse here and there and re-interpret it for self-justification, nor as a prop for a white-washed wall tempered with untempered mortar, which is what man's religion is about.
  9. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    I agree with you.

    Religion has that effect on people.
  10. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    I was associated with the Assembly of God church during my younger years. My mother was a youth leader in the church and we celebrated Christmas as most other holidays. Then when I was just about to enter my teen years, all came to an end as my mother became a Jehovah’s Witness. Suddenly much of our family on her side became distanced from us and there were no more holidays, not even birthdays.

    My father was never very religious, preferring to drink and hang in the bars with his friends. When he did speak of religion he claimed to be Lutheran. We had big family gatherings for his side of the family most every year and then suddenly that stopped as he got to arguing with his relatives at these events and would get so obnoxiously drunk at them that they probably ought to have asked him no longer to attend those gatherings. As it was, though, I think the reason we stopped going was his pride. Never-the-less, I would go with him to a friend’s house occasionally which was across the street from a Catholic Church. He and his guy friends would sit there talking and getting drunk and one of them was the priest from the church across the street. I must admit that even as young as I was it bothered and confused me to see a priest sitting there in his collar and garb getting drunk and talking wildly like he and his friends. I mean, they even talked about sexual things and women. I could see no difference between that priest and they. Of course I learned to hide what I really felt as I felt I ought to not be disrespectful.

    That was all in my early years leading up to my teens. I attended a few other churches also with friends along the way. I was a bit like a piece of drift wood, lost in the water and being tossed by the waves. I was never able to find anything unique about any of them.

    The way priests are in the news so often these days for sex scandals, I realize that it is probably only natural that you would wonder if there was any of that there. The answer is, No.

    I am familiar with being beaten and molested but totally unrelated to family or church.

    I suppose it is probably also only natural that you now wonder if I am a Jehovah’s Witness. The answer to that is No. I did try to be a couple of times but they kicked me out. The last time I was kicked out I also had a doctrinal disagreement with them. I have for many years now not been allowed to freely associate with my children or my mother.

    Now ask me why I feel nothing but hate toward religion. I love God deeply. But religion is man-made, though the devil needs not improve on its design much, before using it to his ends.

    Over the years I have attended many different faiths in search of a place where God truly dwells. I have come to conclude that I have found God dwelling in individual human hearts, but never in the group as a body.

  11. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    Matter not how much we desire to believe the thing we prefer to believe, (whatever that be), we must sort out all obstacles and reasonably conquer them before we can be sure to have reached the truth.

    If the truth is that the Old Law killed all men as the scriptures clearly say it did, then, all promises to those of the flesh ended. Also then, the Israel you see is only dead men working their dead works.

    What many among us are doing by means of their belief towards the Israel of flesh is exactly as follows:

    Galatians 2:18-19 “For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.”

    Many harp that these individuals were foreordained; by name, their very person prior known to God.

    Your beliefs are not nearly as humble as Paul’s:

    Romans 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.”

    And of the one’s he might possibly succeed to provoke, he says:

    Romans 11:23 “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

    Missing the simple uncomplicated things has a chain effect on most all continuation of ideas on the subject.

    I do not at all mean to offend anyone, but most of you are so tangled in complexities manufactured in your own intelligence that you are totally missing seeing the simplest of things that the unbiased child would be able to see.
  12. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    How, then, do we understand: Romans 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

    To begin with, we do not ignore or negate other clearly established truths to support a belief that this means “all” as in “all Israel” that we see in the flesh.

    Instead, we let it motivate us to look all the more for the truth while, not losing sight of things already clearly established unless new evidences show those things in need of adjustment.

    Where do the next verses say that the promise being made can only be fulfilled on them as part of the fleshly nation of Israel?

    Exodus 19:5-6 “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

    Where do those verses in Exodus say that the holy nation has to be the either the then present or the modern day fleshly Israel?

    Upon what was that promise hinged? It was conditional on, “if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be …”

    Did fleshly Israel do that?

    If they had, then the Law would not have killed them, would it? Who alone did do that? Who alone was not killed by that Law?

    It is in him that all things are being made new. (Revelation 3:12; Revelation21:2; Galatians 4:25-31)

    And yet I have met some that even think that Law killed Jesus. I tire of explaining to them that men's perversion of that Law killed Jesus. Therefore it was the sin in men that killed Jesus, and not the Law.

    Jesus alone holds the full right to all of the Law's promises, for the Law killed everyone else.
  13. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    How, then, do we understand: Romans 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

    It is understandable but it is for many going to take patience. For many, and they do not know who they are, before it is possible for them to understand we first have a host of complex preconceived ideas that must be untangled and corrected.

    While it may seem now that I am beating around the bush, it will not seem so once we have arrived there.

    I left off last by saying that I have met some that even think that Old Law killed Jesus. I said that I tire of explaining to them that men's perversion of that Law killed Jesus, that, therefore it was the sin in men that killed Jesus, and not the Law.

    This point ought to not be diminished. It is important for us to realize that it was the sin in men that killed Jesus. It is important for us to realize that this was necessary for Jesus to take victory over both sin and death. Elsewise there is much of what Paul explains that will go over our heads.

    We cannot reasonably blame that handful of Jews alone who called for Jesus death. It is humility that we realize that the sin which is in all men called out for Jesus to die. As Paul tells us at Romans 3:19 “Now we know that whatsoever things the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and the entire world may become guilty before God.”

    Because the sin in man twisted God’s perfect law to call out for Jesus’ death, when in fact Jesus had committed no sin in the flesh to be justly condemned under God’s Law, the effect was that it condemned sin in the flesh for all men. Think carefully about Paul’s following statement:

    Romans 8:3 “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    If asked to explain what it is that the Law could not do, how would you answer?

    The Law could not condemn sin in the flesh without also killing the person. Why? This is because the Law calls for the penalty on the sinner to be death. The Law of God would have condemned us to die even without God’s having sent his Son into this world. Then our death would be everlasting. Sin and its hideous partner Death would have had the victory over us

    So in a nutshell, what the Law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, is condemn our defect while at the same time rescuing us from it. Romans 7:24-25 “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind, I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.”

    Why is this understanding so vitally important?

    Because once we understand this we see that God never really made any promises or deals with the fleshly blood lines of men. We understand that God knew men’s flesh was condemned with Adam to die and that God has not repented Adam’s punishment. Our flesh is the flesh of Adam’s loins and it actually died with Adam. Only God’s mercy permitted Adam to live long enough for him to have offspring. God’s grace reaches clear back to the beginning on our behalf.

    Hebrews 9:27 “… it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

    1 Corinthians 15:19-22 “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now Christ has risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.”

    It is a complicated task for anyone to try to compose a writing that fits everyone’s needs, due to the tremendous variations of Biblical interpretations among men. Some persons would argue with me that even Adam will be saved. Yes, I have had also to wrestle with that idea. It is easily seen that it is not true IF it were not for the fact that those who believe it is true also have their web of confused ideas to support to their minds that it is true. And, those ideas must also be shot down for the falsehoods they are before these ones are able to see how actually simple is the real truth. That is why it sometimes gets tiring. Even before I could see, first I had to struggle to free myself of my own flawed reasoning. Then, to communicate to someone else I must sort through and figure out where the flaws in their reasoning are, so that we might deal with correcting them. Until that is done, they cannot see. They may get weak momentary glimpses of it if they are really trying to understand, but to really see it, they must be helped past their flawed ideas or those ideas will crop back up to keep them doubtful and confused.

    The worst thing that ever happened in this world was for too many persons to think they knew so that they could teach others. The vast majority of those who undertake teaching God’s word do not realize that they did so more out of pride than by God’s calling.

    James 3:1 “Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.” (ASV)

  14. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    What are we really told at Ephesians 1: 4-5?

    The idea of individual predestination finds its support in some very weak and wild interpretations of scripture. These interpretations are very convincing to those that are seduced by them. They truly have a drug like power upon those who, due to lack of knowledge, are ill equipped to see through them. And once they take hold upon a person’s mind and heart it is difficult to help such ones begin to see through those ideas. Such teachings truly do represent what Peter meant when he said that Paul often spoke words difficult to understand that the untaught and the unsteady twist to their destruction.

    One such example is the way people twist Paul’s words at Galatians 1:15. It seems correct that Paul is there speaking about his natural flesh and blood birth mother. And it seems all so innocent a belief which only makes that idea more appealing.

    We want to do two things here: (1) we want to glean all we can from the local context of Paul’s letter to the Galatians concerning the timing of the event in verse 15, while also noting any other comments he makes concerning mothers in that letter, and (2) we want look for information in Paul’s letters to other congregations that may contain similar or related information.

    Galatians 1:15 says, “But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,”

    But we need now to note that Paul continues on to reveal to us the purpose this, Galatians 1:16 “To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:”

    Notice how Paul says that at the time of this event, “immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood”.

    Then Paul says, Galatians 1:17 “Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.”

    From this already we get a sense that he is talking about his conversion while on the road to Damascus. But how can we confirm that? We can go to his First letter to the Corinthians and find that he there also speaks about his conversion, comparing it to childbirth:

    1 Corinthians 15:4-8 “And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

    6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

    7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

    8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.”

    Note that in verse eight, after Cephas and the twelve saw Christ, after some above five hundred brethren at once, after James and the all of the Apostles, “last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.”

    And then because he had been persecuting Christians at that time, Paul concludes this point, saying, 1 Corinthians 15:9 “For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.”

    Looking back at Galatians we see in chapter 4 that Paul speaks concerning a mother that he was separated from saying that all his Christian brethren have been separated away from this same mother and now have a new mother:

    Galatians 4:19 “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,”

    Galatians 4:22 “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.”

    Galatians 4:23 “But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.”

    Galatians 4:24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.”

    àGalatians 4:25 “For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.”ß (“answereth to” = ,G4960> sustoicheo -- to file together (as soldiers in ranks), i.e. (figuratively) to correspond to: KJV -- answer to.)

    àGalatians 4:26 “But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

    The Jews regarded Jerusalem as the purest of mothers and they were taught to see themselves as being nurtured in the care of her womb to God. That is seeable also in the Psalms. But Paul had learned that Hagar actually was a prophetic picture of the earthly fleshly Jerusalem, wherein they were held in a yoke and bond of slavery by the Law.

    Galatians 5:1 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

    Galatians 4:30 “Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

    31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

    That free woman corresponding to Sarah is the Jerusalem above, in heaven with Christ. By what you just learned above from Paul, the Jerusalem you are seeing here below is Hagar’s children whether they are Jews or Muslims. God has tried to tell you that by allowing the Muslim Mosque to dominate the Temple site in Jerusalem. The Muslims claim to be Hagar’s descendants. When will you see?

    If you go back to Galatians chapter one you can see in the verses prior to what Paul said in verse 15, Paul is talking about how zealously he allowed himself to be nurtured in that womb of Hagar.

    Think people, think. We are getting close.

    What are we really told at Ephesians 1: 4-5?

    Even from Paul’s words in Romans 11: 14 and 23 we can see that he evidently did not believe these individuals would automatically be saved as if having been elected from the beginning of the world.

    The hints lay all around you. Will you keep ignoring them?

    It was obviously predestined from the beginning of the world that God would save as many as possible (a remnant) out of all nations, so especially out of the nation he most worked with along the way to achieving his purpose.

    The individuals who were chosen to be saved from the beginning of the world are a group called “meek ones”.

    Psalms 149:4 “For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.”

  15. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Very nice read Walking in Grace, a firm understanding of Pauls writing. You do know that the book of Matthew goes to great lengths to point out the fact that Jesus became Israel.
    Completing the works that Israel as a nation failed to. Failed to fulfill the conditional promises as you pointed out, Abraham's promise was unconditional. And just as Moses placed the book of the law next to the Ark, and said, " prophesied " it will be a witness and a testimony against you, speaking to the Israeli nation.
  16. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    Excellent point.

    These simple to see evidences go unseen because we tend to allow our flesh to wrap us up into a more complicated frame of thinking than it really is. And that we do without realizing that we are actually rejoice over our own intelligence, not seeing that it is deceiving ourselves.

    I am so glad to find a humble thinker here!

    Thank you for responding.
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That's all well and good that you discovered there's a difference between God's Word and the religious traditions of men. The Protestant Church I was raised in didn't teach unfulfilled Bible prophecy, but only what was fulfilled by Christ's first coming. They applied most of our Lord's Book of Revelation to past history. Yet I did not understand that about them until God gave me the urge to study His Word line upon line in my 40's.

    Thus we should stick to God's Word especially, and let the chips fall where they may. The love of the Truth means taking the good with the bad, regardless of what we 'want' to believe.

  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    What you've just done with that is to go back to the traditions of men, instead of staying with Holy Writ. It's men's religious tradition that equates the Old Covenant with all of God's promises to the seed of Israel. Since Christ The New Covenant came, the Old Covenant ended along with God's promises to the nation of Israel, that's what man teaches, but not God. Just read the last 1/3 of the prophecy in Jeremiah 31 where God proclaimed Israel will NEVER cease being a nation to Him. Already you've left Scripture with that idea about God's promises to the seed of Israel having ended.

    Paul was talking about those who still sought to be justified byt the Old Covenant and law, instead of by Faith on Christ Jesus. Can't just pull out one verse there and get the real gist of what Paul was teaching in Galatians. The very next Gal.3 chapter Paul shows how Salvation by Faith on The Saviour started with Abraham's Faith in God's Promise, what many call the Abrahamic Covenant, which was given 430 years prior to the law through Moses. That Promise by Faith continued with the seed of Israel, and then went to the Gentiles also. I find that very difficult to miss from Paul teaching in Galatians, which shows so far, you truly are more into man's traditions of religion than God's Truth in His Word as written.

    You take too much license. No one ever said Faith on The Saviour Jesus Christ was not required for His Salvation. That applies to those blinded of Israel which Paul was speaking about in Rom.11 too.

    But HOW can they 'hear' and believe without that blindness first being removed? Paul quoted from Isaiah 29 about that blindness, which is a lethargic stupor that God Himself put upon them. But God did not put all the seed of Israel in that blindness, even as Paul testified there in Romans 11 about a seed of Israel according to the elction of GRACE. Paul says one day God is going to remove that blindness upon that part of Israel. Then we will see how many of them still refuse Christ Jesus. But until then, God has NOT cast His people away whom He did foreknow, just as Paul declared.

    The blindess which God put up them is for us who have accepted His Son Jesus Christ. So we have no right to say God has cast them away today, for that is to usurp Christ's Authority as Judge.

    I would not want to be found by our Lord Jesus when He returns having judged to condemnation anyone when He Himself has not done so yet (except Satan and his angels which are already judged and sentenced to perish). That's the danger those who cast the unbelieving seed of Israel away today are under.
  19. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    You just simply can't resist commenting to anyone that sees and hears differently than you can you.
    By your persistence you strive wear out the truth and substitute your own where ever it is found.
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    So what you're saying is that we not ignore other Scripture as qualifiers on how to interpret Paul's "all Israel", right? Well, that Greek word for "all" (pas) means the 'whole', 'every', 'all', in all the other NT Scripture examples. So why would you want to change what God's Word says there? Maybe because you lack faith in God for Him to be able to do that? Just too impossible to believe maybe? There's greater things to come you haven't heard nor seen Him do yet.

    Like I said before, to have a love of the Truth means accepting what God said, whether we understand it yet or not, letting the chips fall where they may.

    You, like many, have yet to discover who ALL did fit that condition. It certainly was not only Gentiles like Dan p says, and apparently you infer also. Many of flesh Israel DID accept The New Covenant Jesus Christ, just as Paul showed in Romans 11 with that elect remnant of the SEED of Israel. But you are obviously hard of hearing!!!

    You declared in a previous post how you dislike men's religion, yet that's exactly what you've accepted against God's Word with going against what Paul taught.

    It's wasn't God's law that killed our Lord Jesus. It was those of the devil's servants that perverted God's law by their own tradition.

    Nowhere have you proven that the seed of Israel no longer has anything to do with Christ's Salvation. Nor have you disproven that God's promises to flesh Israel has ended today. You say it has, and think it has, but that means nothing without God saying it.

    Listen up; the following is Paul speaking to Gentiles that believed at Ephesus...

    Eph 2:8-13
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    If that Rom.11:1-5 remnant of flesh Israel according to the election of GRACE were preserved by God Himself, then does that mean they have Faith as us? Might want to think about that.

    10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    What exactly is Paul saying there about Gentiles, and the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise? How are the believing Gentiles now made "nigh" to that through Christ (near, with acces to God)? Is Paul saying that "commonwealth of Israel' and the "covenants of promise" to flesh Israel are dead and gone? God forbid, no.

    Paul is showing HOW the Gentiles who believe by Faith are graffed INTO that "commonwealth of Israel" and those "covenants of promise" God first gave to flesh Israel.

    Does that mean Gentiles graffed into Judaism and unbelieving Jews? Of course not, for the unbelieving Jews are still... under God's blindness, a spiritual stupor, refusing Christ Jesus as The Messiah.

    Paul's meaning is believing Gentiles graffed into God's Israel, which has always included a believing remnant of flesh Israel! It means God's "covenants of promise" stayed with that believing remnant of flesh Israel too. Israel is the Salvation name given through Jacob, and has always been about Christ's Salvation. Us Gentiles can be a part of that "commonwealth of Israel", the Israel that believed, but we cannot be off by ourselves without believing Israel.

    As Paul said in Hebrews 11, God provided something better for us (The New Covenant Christ Jesus) so the OT faithful without us would not be made perfect. As Paul also said there about the OT saints...

    Heb 11:13
    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    This is why Christ would say to the blind scribes and Pharisees that Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced and was glad. The Gospel goes all the way back to Genesis with the OT faithful. Trying to separate the OT saints from us who have believed after Christ came to offer the New Covenant of His Blood is a terrible error by the Biblically unlearned. Same goes for the false idea that God's promises to the seed of Israel being no more also. Without those promises to faithful Israel we have no Salvation through Christ, for He was included in those Promises to Israel from the beginning!