The First Resurrection

[robert derrick]

The 'rapture' is a non-Bible term used to describe the First Resurrection and meeting in the air with the Lord.

I believe that is only partly true.

(1 Thess 4)
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

the dead in Christ rising 'first' is where the First Resurrection comes from and is so named in Rev 20.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

This is what the 'rapture' is supposed to refer to.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Cor 15)

1. The only thing specifically spoken of as in a moment is the actual First Resurrection. Not necessarily the following 'ascension' of the Church and Body of Jesus.

2. The First Resurrection has two parts: The dead in Christ rise first: Resurrected from corruption beneath the earth. And at the very same 'moment', the alive in Christ are changed from mortal to immortal. 2 parts to the first resurrection at the same moment of time.

3. There is no Scripture at all suggesting that those blessed who have part in the first resurrection (Rev 20), are resurrected in different 'stages' or 'parts', as though there will be a 'phased in' first resurrection at different parts of time. This 'teaching' was made up of necessity in order to hold to a 'pre-tribulation' rapture of the church.

Without Scripture plainly proving otherwise, The First Resurrection will occur in one single moment and twinkling of time for ALL the dead and the alive in Christ.

Therefore:

(Rev 11)
"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them." (Rev 11)

This must be the time of the First Resurrection, where all resurrected and changed saints will be seen in a moment and twinkling of the eye standing upon their incorruptible and immortal feet upon the earth as these two witnesses. For these two witnesses certainly have their part in the First resurrection, which is at the same time as all the rest of the dead and the alive in Christ, who will have their part likewise and in the same manner.

"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

And then their enemies, the inhabitors of the earth that are left behind upon the earth, shall see with their own eyes all the saints together caught up and ascending into the air with clouds to meet with the Lord Jesus, Who descends from heaven with a shout, and the archangel's voice saying 'come up hither' at the last trump.

Even as Jesus died and resurrected and ascended in sight of believers, so shall all His believers at that time and in like manner in the sight of His enemies.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

And with this First resurrection the angel with the 7th Trumpet shall sound: this is the last trump. And while all the host of heaven with the resurrected saints give glory to God with much thanksgiving and rejoicing to inaugurate Jesus' millennial reign, the nations left upon the earth shall be angry. Not repentant, but full of anger, even as their forefathers were before the flood.

And so it is that the Lord's return upon the earth shall be as in the days of Noah (Matthew 24): they were all rejoicing over the death of the believers in the Lord from the face of the earth save one, even as they shall do again during the persecution of the saints in the last great tribulation save two. And their rejoicing shall be turned into sudden and perpetual hostility and anger, not repentance, even as it was upon Noah's entering the ark, and they were all swept away suddenly.

How long between the ascension of the Church to meet with the Lord in the air, and His coming down to the earth as the lightening is from the east to the west upon a white horse with His saints? (Rev 19)(Jude 1)

"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." (Rev 11:14)

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Rev 12)

It will be done quickly, as quick as the prince and power of the air can be cast down upon the earth to meet with his inhabitors thereof, which is the third and final woe, because there is no way in heaven that the dragon will be allowed to remain in the air during the Lord's return and meeting with His saints...

 

[Robert Gwin]

The 'rapture' is a non-Bible term used to describe the First Resurrection and meeting in the air with the Lord.

I believe that is only partly true.

(1 Thess 4)
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

the dead in Christ rising 'first' is where the First Resurrection comes from and is so named in Rev 20.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

This is what the 'rapture' is supposed to refer to.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Cor 15)

1. The only thing specifically spoken of as in a moment is the actual First Resurrection. Not necessarily the following 'ascension' of the Church and Body of Jesus.

2. The First Resurrection has two parts: The dead in Christ rise first: Resurrected from corruption beneath the earth. And at the very same 'moment', the alive in Christ are changed from mortal to immortal. 2 parts to the first resurrection at the same moment of time.

3. There is no Scripture at all suggesting that those blessed who have part in the first resurrection (Rev 20), are resurrected in different 'stages' or 'parts', as though there will be a 'phased in' first resurrection at different parts of time. This 'teaching' was made up of necessity in order to hold to a 'pre-tribulation' rapture of the church.

Without Scripture plainly proving otherwise, The First Resurrection will occur in one single moment and twinkling of time for ALL the dead and the alive in Christ.

Therefore:

(Rev 11)
"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them." (Rev 11)

This must be the time of the First Resurrection, where all resurrected and changed saints will be seen in a moment and twinkling of the eye standing upon their incorruptible and immortal feet upon the earth as these two witnesses. For these two witnesses certainly have their part in the First resurrection, which is at the same time as all the rest of the dead and the alive in Christ, who will have their part likewise and in the same manner.

"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

And then their enemies, the inhabitors of the earth that are left behind upon the earth, shall see with their own eyes all the saints together caught up and ascending into the air with clouds to meet with the Lord Jesus, Who descends from heaven with a shout, and the archangel's voice saying 'come up hither' at the last trump.

Even as Jesus died and resurrected and ascended in sight of believers, so shall all His believers at that time and in like manner in the sight of His enemies.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

And with this First resurrection the angel with the 7th Trumpet shall sound: this is the last trump. And while all the host of heaven with the resurrected saints give glory to God with much thanksgiving and rejoicing to inaugurate Jesus' millennial reign, the nations left upon the earth shall be angry. Not repentant, but full of anger, even as their forefathers were before the flood.

And so it is that the Lord's return upon the earth shall be as in the days of Noah (Matthew 24): they were all rejoicing over the death of the believers in the Lord from the face of the earth save one, even as they shall do again during the persecution of the saints in the last great tribulation save two. And their rejoicing shall be turned into sudden and perpetual hostility and anger, not repentance, even as it was upon Noah's entering the ark, and they were all swept away suddenly.

How long between the ascension of the Church to meet with the Lord in the air, and His coming down to the earth as the lightening is from the east to the west upon a white horse with His saints? (Rev 19)(Jude 1)

"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." (Rev 11:14)

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Rev 12)

It will be done quickly, as quick as the prince and power of the air can be cast down upon the earth to meet with his inhabitors thereof, which is the third and final woe, because there is no way in heaven that the dragon will be allowed to remain in the air during the Lord's return and meeting with His saints...

Likely you would agree that Jesus has not returned yet, all will observe it, however we do believe that his presence, his receiving the Crown, was over a century ago, sometime after that we believe the first resurrection happened. Now as anointed ones die, they are changed in a twinkling of an eye, and then as 1 Thess reveals upon his return, the remainder of those will die and meet him in the air. What a beautiful day for us Christians when Jesus returns, not so great for the majority of the world however.

 

[keithr]

The 'rapture' is a non-Bible term used to describe the First Resurrection and meeting in the air with the Lord.

The word “rapture” is taken from the Latin word “rapio” that is a translation of the Greek word harpazō, used in 1 Thess 4:17, which in most English Bibles is translated to the two words “caught up”.

1. The only thing specifically spoken of as in a moment is the actual First Resurrection. Not necessarily the following 'ascension' of the Church and Body of Jesus.

That's not correct. The rapture of the church occurs immediately after the resurrection of the dead Christians, and it all happens very rapidly. 1 Thessalonians 4 (WEB) says:

16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17) Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.​

So a trumpet sounds and the dead Christians are resurrected first. Then, afterwards, Christians that are still alive will be seized (caught up, or raptured) to join them. It doesn't specify the time gap between the two groups of Christians, but the implication is that it's more or less at the same time.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says:

51) Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.​

The raptured Christians are therefore changed "in the twinkling of an eye" (about a thousandth of a second), and likewise the resurrection of the dead will be just as instant - it won't take minutes or hours, it will be instant.

Without Scripture plainly proving otherwise, The First Resurrection will occur in one single moment and twinkling of time for ALL the dead and the alive in Christ.

That's about right, so I'm puzzled why you said above that the "following 'ascension' of the Church" doesn't take place "in a moment".

"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them." (Rev 11)

This must be the time of the First Resurrection, where all resurrected and changed saints will be seen in a moment and twinkling of the eye standing upon their incorruptible and immortal feet upon the earth as these two witnesses. For these two witnesses certainly have their part in the First resurrection, which is at the same time as all the rest of the dead and the alive in Christ, who will have their part likewise and in the same manner.

I don't believe it is part of the first resurrection. Rev 11:11, which you quoted above (I wish you would specify the verse number), says the the two dead men came to life and stood up - that's not the same as the rapture, which is the instant disappearance of living people. The first resurrection and rapture has already happened before the two witnesses spend 3.5 years (1,260 days) prophesying. The two witnesses are generally believed to be Moses and Elijah (who also appeared with Jesus in the transfiguration - Matthew 17).

"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

There is no mention of the sound of the trumpet of God, or of Jesus descending, so I don't believe this is the same event as the first resurrection. The rapture is an instant disappearance, not a slow rise upwards in a cloud.

 

[robert derrick]

Likely you would agree that Jesus has not returned yet, all will observe it, however we do believe that his presence, his receiving the Crown, was over a century ago, sometime after that we believe the first resurrection happened. Now as anointed ones die, they are changed in a twinkling of an eye, and then as 1 Thess reveals upon his return, the remainder of those will die and meet him in the air. What a beautiful day for us Christians when Jesus returns, not so great for the majority of the world however.

"sometime after that we believe the first resurrection happened"

Are you saying that the resurrection has past? (2 Tim 2) And afterwards they who die in Christ join them in that 'resurrection' or resurrected state (2 Cor 5)?

And then in future will be the changing of them that remain and are alive, for all then to meet Him in the air at His return from heaven?

 

[robert derrick]

The word “rapture” is taken from the Latin word “rapio” that is a translation of the Greek word harpazō, used in 1 Thess 4:17, which in most English Bibles is translated to the two words “caught up”.


That's not correct. The rapture of the church occurs immediately after the resurrection of the dead Christians, and it all happens very rapidly. 1 Thessalonians 4 (WEB) says:

16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17) Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.​

So a trumpet sounds and the dead Christians are resurrected first. Then, afterwards, Christians that are still alive will be seized (caught up, or raptured) to join them. It doesn't specify the time gap between the two groups of Christians, but the implication is that it's more or less at the same time.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says:

51) Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.​

The raptured Christians are therefore changed "in the twinkling of an eye" (about a thousandth of a second), and likewise the resurrection of the dead will be just as instant - it won't take minutes or hours, it will be instant.

That's about right, so I'm puzzled why you said above that the "following 'ascension' of the Church" doesn't take place "in a moment".

I don't believe it is part of the first resurrection. Rev 11:11, which you quoted above (I wish you would specify the verse number), says the the two dead men came to life and stood up - that's not the same as the rapture, which is the instant disappearance of living people. The first resurrection and rapture has already happened before the two witnesses spend 3.5 years (1,260 days) prophesying. The two witnesses are generally believed to be Moses and Elijah (who also appeared with Jesus in the transfiguration - Matthew 17).


There is no mention of the sound of the trumpet of God, or of Jesus descending, so I don't believe this is the same event as the first resurrection. The rapture is an instant disappearance, not a slow rise upwards in a cloud.

Ok, rapio from harpazo. That clarifies the term.

So, my whole argument rests on one thing: The First resurrection is one single event. All the dead in Christ, all who have died and ever will die in Christ, will be at one single 'moment' in time.

I.e. No 'phased in' resurrection in parts of time. The First resurrection has not 'begun' (such as in Matthew 27, as some say), nor will it 'begin' in future before the last great tribulation on earth, with 'follow up' resurrections of the martyred dead, including the two witnesses to join the rest of the historical church in the air with the Lord. (Who have been there in clouds for at least 3.5 years...)

This argument has been made specifically to address a 'pre-trib rapture' in conjunction with obviously martyred saints of Jesus Christ , I.e. members of His body in the New testament grace of God, during the last great tribulation on earth, as well as the two witnesses in Rev 11. (What do you mean supply the specific verse number?? Do I got to do all the work for you?? )

So, this main point is what all else hinges on: Is the First Resurrection and Change one single event in moment of time, or are there different parts to it in time?

 

[robert derrick]

As y

The word “rapture” is taken from the Latin word “rapio” that is a translation of the Greek word harpazō, used in 1 Thess 4:17, which in most English Bibles is translated to the two words “caught up”.


That's not correct. The rapture of the church occurs immediately after the resurrection of the dead Christians, and it all happens very rapidly. 1 Thessalonians 4 (WEB) says:

16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17) Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.​

So a trumpet sounds and the dead Christians are resurrected first. Then, afterwards, Christians that are still alive will be seized (caught up, or raptured) to join them. It doesn't specify the time gap between the two groups of Christians, but the implication is that it's more or less at the same time.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says:

51) Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.​

The raptured Christians are therefore changed "in the twinkling of an eye" (about a thousandth of a second), and likewise the resurrection of the dead will be just as instant - it won't take minutes or hours, it will be instant.


That's about right, so I'm puzzled why you said above that the "following 'ascension' of the Church" doesn't take place "in a moment".


I don't believe it is part of the first resurrection. Rev 11:11, which you quoted above (I wish you would specify the verse number), says the the two dead men came to life and stood up - that's not the same as the rapture, which is the instant disappearance of living people. The first resurrection and rapture has already happened before the two witnesses spend 3.5 years (1,260 days) prophesying. The two witnesses are generally believed to be Moses and Elijah (who also appeared with Jesus in the transfiguration - Matthew 17).


There is no mention of the sound of the trumpet of God, or of Jesus descending, so I don't believe this is the same event as the first resurrection. The rapture is an instant disappearance, not a slow rise upwards in a cloud.

As you get with my main point about a one single event of the 1st resurrection, I have some possible solutions to your objections to a 1st resurrection in Rev 11, with the two witnesses:

1. "the two dead men came to life and stood up - that's not the same as the rapture, which is the instant disappearance of living people."

Once again Scripture is perfectly proven an instant disappearance, but only a natural appearance of such. And with the two witnesses, I object to them being resurrected to immortality and then 'standing up' onto their feet (and dusted themselves off ):

"The Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

We could just as easily, and I consider more likely, read: they were resurrected and in a twinkling moment they were standing upon their feet instantly from the ground where they had lain dead just a moment before.

Afterall, is that not the sensical understanding of the resurrection of the dead in Christ in a moment immortally upon the earth?? or at least in a moment from beneath the earth or in the sea caught up into the air? No climbing out of the graves nor swimming to the sea shore, like zombies would do. (And yes, we can go to the Greek for this one. We are not discussing Law and First principle, but rather prophetic mystery. Aorist verb: an event which occurred at some point in the past and is still ongoing: stood instantly and still standing there to be seen by there enemies)

2. "The first resurrection and rapture has already happened before the two witnesses spend 3.5 years (1,260 days) prophesying."

If this is so, then the whole church of history prior to the last great tribulation is still with the Lord in the air with clouds, waiting...Which is no problem for God, but I'm just saying. They could be having their promised supper with the Lamb...

3. "There is no mention of the sound of the trumpet of God, or of Jesus descending"

There is the great voice of the archangel saying from heaven 'Come up hither'. (vs 11)

Also, in the same 'hour' of them being seen standing upon their feet, the great earthquake fells a tenth of the city Jerusalem, which is the 2nd Woe, and at that time within an hour, the angel with the 7th trumpet sounds, which is the last trump of the Seven, and they ascend. The voice of the archangel and the last trump can be at the same time

And so, we have a resurrection most likely in a moment with the voice of the archangel and the sound of the last trump. Fulfills 1 Cor 15, which is the mystery of the resurrection and change, and 2 parts of 1 Thess 4, which includes the ascension.

So it does not have to be a separate event, unless someone is convinced the 1st resurrection, change, and ascension into the air has already occurred as in 'pre-trib'. Which therefore means, the First Resurrection must be in parts of differing times; otherwise, the martyred saints beheaded for their witness of Jesus, included these two witnesses, will not have part in the 1st resurrection, which is necessary to reign in His millennial kingdom on earth and have no part in the 2nd death. (Rev 20:6)

And we know that all such beheaded martyrs from the beast will have their part in the 1st resurrection.

And so in reality the burden is upon others to prove the 1st resurrection is in fact phased in over time. Otherwise, it is far more simple just to conclude the 1st resurrection and change and following ascension occurs with the two dead in Christ witnesses in Rev 11.

And since the Lord is already descended in the air and still meeting with the first resurrected of the 1st Resurrection, then when the rest of the saints are killed they would resurrect like the two witnesses and ascend to heaven to join them. "Come ye up hither with us..."

One question comes to mind: Why are the first souls of the persecution of the beast were seen under the altar and told to rest yet for a little season, until the rest of the martydoms should be fulfilled? Where exactly will they be resting with white robes? Why are they not simply resurrected to join the rest in the air? Will they rest under the altar as the new dead in Christ, until the final and last testimony of Jesus on earth is finished by the two witnesses, so that the 2nd part of the 1st resurrection is accomplished.

I'm not saying this cannot be so, but rather reasoning out through Scripture how it could be so...

 

[keithr]

So, my whole argument rests on one thing: The First resurrection is one single event. All the dead in Christ, all who have died and ever will die in Christ, will be at one single 'moment' in time.

I.e. No 'phased in' resurrection in parts of time.

Yes, I'd agree with that.

The First resurrection has not 'begun' (such as in Matthew 27, as some say), ...

This argument has been made specifically to address a 'pre-trib rapture' in conjunction with obviously martyred saints of Jesus Christ , I.e. members of His body in the New testament grace of God, during the last great tribulation on earth, as well as the two witnesses in Rev 11. (What do you mean supply the specific verse number?? Do I got to do all the work for you?? )

It would be helpful if you did specify verse numbers (it's what verse numbers were invented for, to help people more quickly find the parts of the Bible that they are discussing). It's not doing all of the work, just making it easier. For example you referenced Matt. 27, but that chapter is 66 verses long, so it will take some time to read and to try and guess which verse or verses you were referring to (verses 52 & 53?). It must be much easier for you to specify the verse(s) (as you have probably just read it) than it is for everyone who reads your reply to have to read a large passage of Scripture to try and guess which verse you were referring to. A lot of people are lazy and won't bother searching for the verse(s) if you don't precisely quote them, so not quoting the verse numbers means your points won't get across so well. Everybody else seems to quote the verse numbers, why don't you?!

 

[keithr]

And with the two witnesses, I object to them being resurrected to immortality and then 'standing up' onto their feet (and dusted themselves off ):

I think what is confusing you is that you think that the two witnesses are Christians, and members of the body of Christ. If they are Moses and Elijah, which most people agree that they are, then they are Old Testament prophets, not Christians. Their resurrection comes later and will be as humans again (not immortal, but they will live eternally). Moses and Elijah seem to have extra roles and are brought back as witnesses in the end times, but as it says they are killed (they are human and not immortal).

The only "acceptable time" (2 Corinthians 6:2) of sacrifice (following in the footsteps of Jesus) is the Gospel age - starting with Jesus' ministry on earth and ending with the first resurrection. Only believers during that time period have the opportuity to become members of the body/bride of Christ and gain the divine immortal nature. As Jesus said, “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he” (Luke 7:28 - WEB). Also in Hebrews 11 Pauls talks about the Old Testament Israelites saying:

39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,
40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

i.e. none of the Old Testament Israelites, including the prophets, have been or will be resurrected until after the church has been resurrected (with a better resurrection than they will have).

One question comes to mind: Why are the first souls of the persecution of the beast were seen under the altar and told to rest yet for a little season, until the rest of the martydoms should be fulfilled? Where exactly will they be resting with white robes? Why are they not simply resurrected to join the rest in the air? Will they rest under the altar as the new dead in Christ, until the final and last testimony of Jesus on earth is finished by the two witnesses, so that the 2nd part of the 1st resurrection is accomplished.

I'm not saying this cannot be so, but rather reasoning out through Scripture how it could be so...

Don't forget that Revelation is full of symbolic visions and lots of it are not literal. In this case these souls are not alive - it's similar to the voice of the blood of Abel calling out to God from the ground (Genesis 4:10).

Revelation 6:8 (KJV):
8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This too is describing events after the first resurrection has taken place, and is part of the great tribulation. I believe that those "that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" is referring to Israelites, God's chosen people, and not to Christians. It is saying that more Jews are going to be killed before God will intervene, when Jesus will fight for Israel.

 

[Daniel Veler]

The gospel was first preached to Abraham. The Lord told him all nations would be bless. You who separate old from the new have not understood the the old is revealed with the new.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, I'd agree with that.


It would be helpful if you did specify verse numbers (it's what verse numbers were invented for, to help people more quickly find the parts of the Bible that they are discussing). It's not doing all of the work, just making it easier. For example you referenced Matt. 27, but that chapter is 66 verses long, so it will take some time to read and to try and guess which verse or verses you were referring to (verses 52 & 53?). It must be much easier for you to specify the verse(s) (as you have probably just read it) than it is for everyone who reads your reply to have to read a large passage of Scripture to try and guess which verse you were referring to. A lot of people are lazy and won't bother searching for the verse(s) if you don't precisely quote them, so not quoting the verse numbers means your points won't get across so well. Everybody else seems to quote the verse numbers, why don't you?!

Just messing with you. Normally I've found people don't actually care about reading the Scripture itself, and since you do, then I be more than glad to provide...

 

[robert derrick]

"You who separate old from the new have not understood the the old is revealed with the new."

Yes, but not when it comes to the Old Covenant and the Law of Moses vs the New Covenant and the Law of Christ.

Many sincere believers don't understand though ALL Scripture is still Scripture and good and profitable for instruction, not all Scripture is Law of God. Any believer can apply any Scripture from anywhere in the Bible they want in their own lives, but not then go and insist others do likewise by preaching it as Law.

The Judaizers were still binding themselves to the Law of Moses as Christian believers, even though the Law of God had changed completely from that of Moses to that of Christ. And so they were insisting Gentile believers be circumcised. A point of Law of the Old Covenant being preached as Law for the New, which was no more in effect with God. (Heb 7:12)

"Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm." (I Tim 1:7)

I.e. people go astray from Scripture by trying to teach as Law of God what is not Scripturally Law of God, and so they don't know what they are doing, and just messing things up.

No help is better than bad help...

 

[robert derrick]

I think what is confusing you is that you think that the two witnesses are Christians, and members of the body of Christ. If they are Moses and Elijah, which most people agree that they are, then they are Old Testament prophets, not Christians. Their resurrection comes later and will be as humans again (not immortal, but they will live eternally). Moses and Elijah seem to have extra roles and are brought back as witnesses in the end times, but as it says they are killed (they are human and not immortal).

That is an interesting concept or way of putting it, I had not heard nor thought of before. As with all assumptions, they are usually wrong, and I had always assumed any witnesses of God after Jesus came would be witnesses of Himself.

And looking at Rev 11, I see there is no specific mentioning of their testimony, other than that of the God of the earth. Which admittedly I had thought peculiar before, and is found only here and in Gen 24 used by Abraham.

So that is interesting and possible, I suppose. But we do know both Elijah and Moses spoke with Jesus on the mount, so certainly they were not ignorant of Him.

And some hold them to be Enoch and Elijah, and Enoch was a prophet (Jude 14) before Abraham and Moses and the Old Covenant of the Law, where such prophesying took place...

 

[robert derrick]

The only "acceptable time" (2 Corinthians 6:2) of sacrifice (following in the footsteps of Jesus) is the Gospel age - starting with Jesus' ministry on earth and ending with the first resurrection. Only believers during that time period have the opportuity to become members of the body/bride of Christ and gain the divine immortal nature. As Jesus said, “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he” (Luke 7:28 - WEB). Also in Hebrews 11 Pauls talks about the Old Testament Israelites saying:

39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,
40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

i.e. none of the Old Testament Israelites, including the prophets, have been or will be resurrected until after the church has been resurrected (with a better resurrection than they will have).


Don't forget that Revelation is full of symbolic visions and lots of it are not literal. In this case these souls are not alive - it's similar to the voice of the blood of Abel calling out to God from the ground (Genesis 4:10).

Revelation 6:8 (KJV):
8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This too is describing events after the first resurrection has taken place, and is part of the great tribulation. I believe that those "that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" is referring to Israelites, God's chosen people, and not to Christians. It is saying that more Jews are going to be killed before God will intervene, when Jesus will fight for Israel.

"The only "acceptable time" (2 Corinthians 6:2) of sacrifice (following in the footsteps of Jesus) is the Gospel age - starting with Jesus' ministry on earth and ending with the first resurrection."

So, this is the crux of the matter. You have agreed the First Resurrection is one single event. And here is the First resurrection:
1. The dead in Christ resurrected and those alive changed.
2. The dead in Christ include those beheaded for the witness of Jesus during the last beast's reign. (Rev 20:4-6)

Therefore, both the beast and the dragon will make war with Christians that witness of Jesus and plainly have the testimony of Christ (Rev 12:17), and are with the Lamb (Rev 17:14), and are saints whose names are written in the book of Life of the Lamb (Rev 13:8).

It is plain that Christians will be the subject of one last great persecution and tribulation on earth, which is why some have invented the 'phased in' 1st Resurrection, in order to keep the belief that only national Israelites and born Jews will be subjected thereto, and not the previously resurrected and changed believers in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.

And since you agree the First Resurrection is one single event, and Christians are plainly being persecuted and martyred in the last great tribulation, then the First Resurrection cannot take place, until they are in fact made war with by both the beast and the dragon.

Therefore, the Church and Body of Christ will not be 1st resurrected before said tribulation.

The 'First' resurrection does not apply only to those before that last tribulation, but rather applies to ALL the dead in Christ, both before and during it.

 

[keithr]

And some hold them to be Enoch and Elijah, and Enoch was a prophet (Jude 14) before Abraham and Moses and the Old Covenant of the Law, where such prophesying took place...

They're usually presumed to be Elijah and Moses because of the miracluous things mentioned in verses 5 and 6, which are similar to that performed by them, and also because the two of them appeared together in the transfiguration:

11:5) If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. If anyone desires to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
11:6) These have the power to shut up the sky, that it may not rain during the days of their prophecy [Elijah]. They have power over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire [Moses].

But we do know both Elijah and Moses spoke with Jesus on the mount, so certainly they were not ignorant of Him.

In Luke's account he mentions that Moses and Elijah "spake of his [Jesus'] decease which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem" (Luke 9:30-31).

 

[robert derrick]

I think what is confusing you is that you think that the two witnesses are Christians, and members of the body of Christ. If they are Moses and Elijah, which most people agree that they are, then they are Old Testament prophets, not Christians. Their resurrection comes later and will be as humans again (not immortal, but they will live eternally). Moses and Elijah seem to have extra roles and are brought back as witnesses in the end times, but as it says they are killed (they are human and not immortal).

The only "acceptable time" (2 Corinthians 6:2) of sacrifice (following in the footsteps of Jesus) is the Gospel age - starting with Jesus' ministry on earth and ending with the first resurrection. Only believers during that time period have the opportuity to become members of the body/bride of Christ and gain the divine immortal nature. As Jesus said, “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he” (Luke 7:28 - WEB). Also in Hebrews 11 Pauls talks about the Old Testament Israelites saying:

39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,
40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

i.e. none of the Old Testament Israelites, including the prophets, have been or will be resurrected until after the church has been resurrected (with a better resurrection than they will have).


Don't forget that Revelation is full of symbolic visions and lots of it are not literal. In this case these souls are not alive - it's similar to the voice of the blood of Abel calling out to God from the ground (Genesis 4:10).

Revelation 6:8 (KJV):
8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This too is describing events after the first resurrection has taken place, and is part of the great tribulation. I believe that those "that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" is referring to Israelites, God's chosen people, and not to Christians. It is saying that more Jews are going to be killed before God will intervene, when Jesus will fight for Israel.

"none of the Old Testament Israelites, including the prophets, have been or will be resurrected until after the church has been resurrected (with a better resurrection than they will have)."

That is not accurate:

"Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection." (Heb 11:35)

The context is obviously that of Old Testament saints and 'heroes' of the faith of God. They kept the faith of God rather than be 'delivered' of death in order to obtain the Resurrection of the God of Life that is better than that of the dead unto judgment.

From what I read plainly throughout Scripture from Old to New is only 2 resurrections of mankind (Not counting that of Jesus Himself):

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2)

The later Scriptures we have been discussing show us that this resurrection of all the dead, will be in two parts: the 1st unto life, and the latter unto judgement and life or damnation.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power" (Rev 20:5-6)

And so all the dead will not be resurrected at the same time, and those in the First are blessed with having no power of the 2nd death over them.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:13-15)

Now this is where it can get perplexing. My reading is:
There are two resurrections of the dead, for sure. The First is better than the latter, because with the First there is no judgment from the books, and thus no 'possibility' of the 2nd death hanging over them like the fiery noose of the eternal gallows.

It is plain that at least some of them will be written in the Book of Life. And I am willing at this time to consider a possibility:

Is the Book of Life of the Lamb different from the Book of Life of judgment?

All those in the Lamb's book of Life will be in the First Resurrection, which my reading clearly includes all the church of the Gospel Age of Jesus, from the apostles to His return to reign. And that would also include the Old Testament saints who will likewise obtain the better resurrection of the 1st.

Therefore, I would conclude that those written in the Book of Life, that is not particularly the Lamb's, would be those living and dying during His millennial reign. For every man and woman will be judged according to their works according to the books opened (Rom 2:6), except those written in the Lamb's book of Life: All such are judged of sin during their lives of faith and chastened unto repentance rather than unto condemnation. (1 Cor 11: 32)

 

[keithr]

"The only "acceptable time" (2 Corinthians 6:2) of sacrifice (following in the footsteps of Jesus) is the Gospel age - starting with Jesus' ministry on earth and ending with the first resurrection."

So, this is the crux of the matter. You have agreed the First Resurrection is one single event. And here is the First resurrection:
1. The dead in Christ resurrected and those alive changed.
2. The dead in Christ include those beheaded for the witness of Jesus during the last beast's reign. (Rev 20:4-6)

Revelation 20:4 (WEB):

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.​

The resurrected saints, who were resurrected in the first resurrection, are those sitting on thrones (reigning and judging with Jesus). Those beheaded for their testimony, I think are believers who have lived through the great tribulation, perhaps becoming believers because of the witness of the 144,000 Israelites mentioned in chapter 7. The resurrected church are in heaven before Jesus takes the scroll and breaks the seals in chapter 6. In chapter five (verses 9 & 10) the resurrected church:

sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.”​

So the church is resurrected before all the tribulations that occur when Jesus opens the seven seals.

It is plain that Christians will be the subject of one last great persecution and tribulation on earth,

They will be believers, but they will have missed the acceptable time for sacrifice and the opportunity to become members of the body of Christ (so technically not Christians of the Gospel Age). There will be a great multitude of believers - Revelation 7 (WEB):

9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could count, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
10) They cried with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation be to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”​

Note that John didn't know who these people were (for the church was already complete, resurrected, and sitting on thrones in heaven):

13) One of the elders [a resurrected Christian] answered, saying to me, “These who are arrayed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?”
14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.
15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.
16) They will never be hungry, neither thirsty any more; neither will the sun beat on them, nor any heat;
17) for the Lamb who is in the middle of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of life-giving waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”​

Why does God need to wipe away their tears? It's because they didn't believe, and did not become Christians when they had the opportunity (before the rapture and first resurrection, and end of the Gospel Age), and having believed too late to receive the divine immortal nature and be heirs of God with Jesus, they nevertheless have a blessed reward for faithfully believing during the great tribulation, but they then realise what they have missed out on. They are obviously upset to have missed out on the greater blessing, so God wipes away their tears.

 

[robert derrick]

I think what is confusing you is that you think that the two witnesses are Christians, and members of the body of Christ. If they are Moses and Elijah, which most people agree that they are, then they are Old Testament prophets, not Christians. Their resurrection comes later and will be as humans again (not immortal, but they will live eternally). Moses and Elijah seem to have extra roles and are brought back as witnesses in the end times, but as it says they are killed (they are human and not immortal).

The only "acceptable time" (2 Corinthians 6:2) of sacrifice (following in the footsteps of Jesus) is the Gospel age - starting with Jesus' ministry on earth and ending with the first resurrection. Only believers during that time period have the opportuity to become members of the body/bride of Christ and gain the divine immortal nature. As Jesus said, “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he” (Luke 7:28 - WEB). Also in Hebrews 11 Pauls talks about the Old Testament Israelites saying:

39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,
40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

i.e. none of the Old Testament Israelites, including the prophets, have been or will be resurrected until after the church has been resurrected (with a better resurrection than they will have).


Don't forget that Revelation is full of symbolic visions and lots of it are not literal. In this case these souls are not alive - it's similar to the voice of the blood of Abel calling out to God from the ground (Genesis 4:10).

Revelation 6:8 (KJV):
8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This too is describing events after the first resurrection has taken place, and is part of the great tribulation. I believe that those "that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" is referring to Israelites, God's chosen people, and not to Christians. It is saying that more Jews are going to be killed before God will intervene, when Jesus will fight for Israel.

"I believe that those "that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" is referring to Israelites, God's chosen people, and not to Christians."

"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.' (Rev 1:9)

"I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." (Rev 6:9)

"And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God." (Rev 20:4)

Unless there is a clear Scriptural difference between the slain souls under the altar due to the antichrist on his whited horse, and the beheaded souls due to rejecting the beast, then they are one and the same, even as John: Christians.

And it is these souls that have part in the 1st Resurrection. The 1st resurrection is after the beheading of Christian souls persecuted by the 1st beast of Rev 13. Unless, of course, there is clearly written evidence otherwise...

 

[DPMartin]

The 'rapture' is a non-Bible term used to describe the First Resurrection and meeting in the air with the Lord.


"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them." (Rev 11)

..

na, these are the two I do believe olive trees (prophets) that torment the world notably having the same abilities as Moses and Elijah the same two at what is referred to by some as, "the transfiguration", in the presence of Peter and John and James.

and has nothing to do with any reference to resurrection of the faithful below or above the ground. also there is some reference to what some call "white throne judgement" you have to take into consideration.


the OT and the NT make statements about Jesus returning to the Mt of Olives when He comes, and the OT states that it will become a valley and the dust thereof will darken the sun and the moon (also mentioned as day of the Lord). there's where to start when it comes to the second coming.

but its the wise school of thought that prophesies that are from God are almost never understood until it happens then one sees that its a deliberate act of God, and not some coincidence. nobody got the coming of Jesus the Messiah until after He came. even the scholars of the day were befuddled when Herod wanted to know what the wise men were talking about.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The 'rapture' is a non-Bible term used to describe the First Resurrection and meeting in the air with the Lord.

I believe that is only partly true.

(1 Thess 4)
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

the dead in Christ rising 'first' is where the First Resurrection comes from and is so named in Rev 20.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

This is what the 'rapture' is supposed to refer to.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Cor 15)

1. The only thing specifically spoken of as in a moment is the actual First Resurrection. Not necessarily the following 'ascension' of the Church and Body of Jesus.

2. The First Resurrection has two parts: The dead in Christ rise first: Resurrected from corruption beneath the earth. And at the very same 'moment', the alive in Christ are changed from mortal to immortal. 2 parts to the first resurrection at the same moment of time.

3. There is no Scripture at all suggesting that those blessed who have part in the first resurrection (Rev 20), are resurrected in different 'stages' or 'parts', as though there will be a 'phased in' first resurrection at different parts of time. This 'teaching' was made up of necessity in order to hold to a 'pre-tribulation' rapture of the church.

Without Scripture plainly proving otherwise, The First Resurrection will occur in one single moment and twinkling of time for ALL the dead and the alive in Christ.

Therefore:

(Rev 11)
"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them." (Rev 11)

This must be the time of the First Resurrection, where all resurrected and changed saints will be seen in a moment and twinkling of the eye standing upon their incorruptible and immortal feet upon the earth as these two witnesses. For these two witnesses certainly have their part in the First resurrection, which is at the same time as all the rest of the dead and the alive in Christ, who will have their part likewise and in the same manner.

"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

And then their enemies, the inhabitors of the earth that are left behind upon the earth, shall see with their own eyes all the saints together caught up and ascending into the air with clouds to meet with the Lord Jesus, Who descends from heaven with a shout, and the archangel's voice saying 'come up hither' at the last trump.

Even as Jesus died and resurrected and ascended in sight of believers, so shall all His believers at that time and in like manner in the sight of His enemies.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

And with this First resurrection the angel with the 7th Trumpet shall sound: this is the last trump. And while all the host of heaven with the resurrected saints give glory to God with much thanksgiving and rejoicing to inaugurate Jesus' millennial reign, the nations left upon the earth shall be angry. Not repentant, but full of anger, even as their forefathers were before the flood.

And so it is that the Lord's return upon the earth shall be as in the days of Noah (Matthew 24): they were all rejoicing over the death of the believers in the Lord from the face of the earth save one, even as they shall do again during the persecution of the saints in the last great tribulation save two. And their rejoicing shall be turned into sudden and perpetual hostility and anger, not repentance, even as it was upon Noah's entering the ark, and they were all swept away suddenly.

How long between the ascension of the Church to meet with the Lord in the air, and His coming down to the earth as the lightening is from the east to the west upon a white horse with His saints? (Rev 19)(Jude 1)

"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." (Rev 11:14)

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Rev 12)

It will be done quickly, as quick as the prince and power of the air can be cast down upon the earth to meet with his inhabitors thereof, which is the third and final woe, because there is no way in heaven that the dragon will be allowed to remain in the air during the Lord's return and meeting with His saints...

Well if the rapture was indeed the first resurrection, then your logic would hold, but it isn't.

Lazarus was resurrected, the widow of Naims' son was resurrected. Many Jews were resurrected when Jesus rose. Jesus was resurrected to never die again. Peter raised the young girl in Acts. So there have been many previous resurrections from before Rev. 20.

But as to the biblical fact that the rapture (or more correctly in English- the great snatching) must3 occur before the first resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:5-6, let us look:

1. the bible calls the tribulation 7 years the wrath of God Rev. 6 and numerous OT passages. The lake of fire is never referred to as the wrath of God.
2. 1 Thess. 1 promises the church is to be delivered from the wrath to come. As Paul already assures us eternal security and the LOF is never referred to as wrath- it can only mean teh 7 year tribulation period.
3. IN Rev. 19 before Jesus returns there are lots of people ini heaven ALREADY! :

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The church is the bride of the Lamb and we are in heaven to marry Jesus BEFORE SCRIPTURE shows He returns.

For these and many other Scripture passages, one can only conclude that the great snatching away (rapture, harpazo) must occur before the wrath of rev. 6 begins.

 

[robert derrick]

I have said the crux of the matter is whether the 1st Resurrection is at once or in stages, but the really real crux of the matter is about whether the Christians in Revelation are only Jews or not.

It cannot be disputed that the last great persecution is upon Christians of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which have the testimony of Jesus as Christ and Lamb of God (Rev 12:17)(Rev 17:14), and are written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev 13:8), and are part of the 1st Resurrection (Rev 20:4-6).

These are all born of the Spirit with the promise of the Spirit and are the chosen people and seed of promise of God to Abraham.

The promise to Abraham as pertaining to his fleshly seed was to be confirmed and kept by Jesus (Rom 15:8), and they received Him not (John 1:11), but had Him crucified instead. And so the last days promise and prophecy of the Gospel age of grace, looked into and hoped for by the prophets of old (1 Peter 1:10), have now passed to any and all believers, whether Jew or Gentile.

The prophecy of the last days are definitely here, and have been since Jesus' coming as Messiah on earth (Acts 2:16-17)(Heb 1:2)(1 John 2:18). All that remains is a last great tribulation and persecution period of God's chosen people: Christians, whether Jews or Greek. (1 Peter 2:10)

Not only are natural Jews no longer God's 'chosen' people, but as far as the Lord is concerned they aren't even properly 'Jews' anymore, even as their Jews' religion is not God's anymore.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:28-29)

"I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not...Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie." (Rev 2:9, 3:9)

The promise of God to Abraham as pertaining to His chosen seed and people ended with the natural Jews in Jesus day, when they received Him not, and the promise of God to Abraham began at the cross with only the spiritual Jews and seed of promise of today.

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." (Gal 4:28-31)

Christians are the only children of the promise of God to Abraham and to David, and the natural seed is cast out of their own volition and will, to be just another nation among nations. The carnal seed of the Jews are no different now than the carnal seed of the gentiles: they are ALL of the same one blood before God. (Acts 17:26)

Any carnal seed of man may be saved by faith in Jesus, and every carnal seed of man in the time of the last beast shall be deceived into making war with those testifying of Jesus, whether 'Jew or Gentile'. They are now all the same in need of salvation of Jesus by His common faith. (Jude 3)

And so, no need of prophecy to try and put the First Resurrection before those last perilous times to come, nor to come up with a First Resurrection 'phased in' over time.