IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[The Gospel of Christ]

Some man taught you all that.

The bible says the AC kills all the saints.
During the trib.
That alone throws a monkey wrench in your doctrine.

Oh really?
Then who are these saints getting killed during the tribulation?
If the “church” was already raptured before the tribulation (as pre-trib teaches)...
Who are these saints?
Where did they come from?
Why are they not spared?

You can’t have it both ways.

Either:
The church is gone, and these saints are just “tribulation leftovers” (which has zero biblical support)

or

The saints go through the tribulation — just like Jesus said.

And here’s the kicker:
“It was given to [the Beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them...”
— Revelation 13:7

You know what it doesn’t say?
“It was given to the Beast to make war with the tribulation saints that got saved after the rapture and forgot to read Left Behind.”

That phrase does not exist in Scripture. It’s Scofieldian science fiction.
There’s no category of “tribulation saints” distinct from “the church.”
That’s a theological invention used to patch the holes in the sinking ship of pre-trib eschatology.

Jesus Said It Plainly:
“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send out His angels... and they will gather His elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

After.
Not before.
Not mid.
Not in a secret vanishing.

And About That “Some Man Taught You” Line…
Scofield was a man.
Darby was a man.
The whole Dispensationalist system came from men — not Jesus, not the apostles, not the early Church.

The doctrine you're clinging to was literally invented in the 1800s by a failed lawyer who slapped his own footnotes into the Bible and ended up deceiving millions.
So yeah — that “some man” you're warning me about?
You're actually parroting him.

Meanwhile, what I’m saying is backed by Jesus, Paul, Peter, and every early Christian writer for the first 1,800 years of church history — before your Scofield fantasy ever existed.

If the Antichrist kills the saints...
Then the saints are there during the tribulation.
Which means the rapture didn’t happen before.

Case closed.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

...and yet Hitler and Stalin tried to wipe out the JEWS.
Now it is all Arab nations that want the JEWS wiped out.
( the race you say does not exist)

Let me break this down for you real slow:

No one’s denying people died. Yes, Hitler targeted Jews. Yes, Stalin persecuted religious groups.
But that doesn’t magically confirm biblical lineage.
Persecution doesn’t prove Abrahamic descent — it proves human depravity.

You keep yelling “JEWS!” like that settles something.
The question isn’t who calls themselves Jews.
The question is:
Are they descendants of Jacob? Of the twelve tribes?
Because biblically, that’s what Israel means.
And Khazars, Russian and Eastern Europeans — genetically, historically, geographically — are not that.
They’re converts. 8th century. Caucasus region. Look it up.

So yes — the modern Jewish “race” as defined by Zionist propaganda is a constructed identity.
One built through conversion, not covenant.
A religion — not a bloodline.

And spare me the “Arab nations want to wipe them out” line.
That’s geopolitical spin — not eschatology.
Every empire in history has been at war with someone.
You don’t validate someone’s divine election by pointing to the fact that they have enemies.
By that logic, the Uyghurs are God’s chosen too.

Bottom line:
Modern Zionism hijacked the word “Jew” to justify a state built on blood and banking —
not the Gospel, not the covenant, and sure as hell not Jesus.

So go ahead and chant “never again” all you want.
But don’t confuse Talmudic Zionism with the faith of Moses —
and don’t confuse war crimes with biblical prophecy.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

The Gospel of Christ said:
"You said Noah was “taken” — as if being lifted in an ark means raptured to heaven?"

Noah, Lot, the 5 wise virgins and the church are all gathered/taken.
The only place the wicked world is destroyed is the LOF.
And that is after the mil.

Rev 19 is the second coming on white horses.
Only the satanic army is destroyed.
Then the mil.
Only pretrib rapture fits.
Your doctrine is easily debunked

You just stitched together a Scofield fever dream and called it “doctrine.”
Let’s burn it down with the actual words of Christ.

Noah was not “raptured.”
He was left on Earth — preserved through judgment while the wicked were taken.

“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

The ones taken were the wicked.
Noah remained.
You got it completely backwards.

Same with Lot — he didn’t vanish.
He ran. Fled. Escaped by inches.
He wasn’t raptured — he was spared through judgment, just like the end-time remnant will be.

The five wise virgins?
They waited. They endured. They went in after the delay.
Not before. Not “poof, we’re gone.”
Jesus literally says the bridegroom was delayed — and only those ready when He finally came went in. (Matthew 25:5–10)

And you dare say “only the satanic army is destroyed” at the Second Coming?

Have you even read 2 Thessalonians?
“He will slay the lawless one with the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming.” — 2 Thess 2:8
“In flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who know not God...” — 2 Thess 1:8

The wicked are judged when Christ returns.
Not 7 years later.
Not at some imaginary third coming.
Not after your Scofield-sponsored fantasy timeline.

Only pre-trib fits?
Only pre-trib fits if you rip verses out of context, ignore everything Jesus said, and blindly trust a 19th-century Zionist conman who added his own footnotes to Scripture.

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31
AFTER. Not before. Not secret. Not invisible. Not Scofield.
Jesus said AFTER.

There is no verse — not one — that says Jesus comes twice for the church.
There is no verse that says believers get a backstage pass while Israel takes the hit.
There is no verse that splits the people of God into fake timelines, fake covenants, and fake second chances.

You’re not defending the Gospel.
You’re defending a lie that insults the blood of Christ, mocks the testimony of the martyrs, and turns the New Covenant into a sideshow for Zionist politics.

You said my doctrine is easily debunked?
No — yours is easily sold in prophecy conferences and rejected by every apostle that ever lived.

When Jesus returns, there won’t be a Scofield study Bible left standing.
There will be fire, judgment, and glory — and those who endure to the end will be saved.
Not those who thought they’d fly out early and skip the cross.

Keep your rapture fiction.
I’ll keep the words of the King.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You just stitched together a Scofield fever dream and called it “doctrine.”
Let’s burn it down with the actual words of Christ.

Noah was not “raptured.”
He was left on Earth — preserved through judgment while the wicked were taken.

“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

The ones taken were the wicked.
Noah remained.
You got it completely backwards.

Same with Lot — he didn’t vanish.
He ran. Fled. Escaped by inches.
He wasn’t raptured — he was spared through judgment, just like the end-time remnant will be.

The five wise virgins?
They waited. They endured. They went in after the delay.
Not before. Not “poof, we’re gone.”
Jesus literally says the bridegroom was delayed — and only those ready when He finally came went in. (Matthew 25:5–10)

And you dare say “only the satanic army is destroyed” at the Second Coming?

Have you even read 2 Thessalonians?
“He will slay the lawless one with the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming.” — 2 Thess 2:8
“In flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who know not God...” — 2 Thess 1:8

The wicked are judged when Christ returns.
Not 7 years later.
Not at some imaginary third coming.
Not after your Scofield-sponsored fantasy timeline.

Only pre-trib fits?
Only pre-trib fits if you rip verses out of context, ignore everything Jesus said, and blindly trust a 19th-century Zionist conman who added his own footnotes to Scripture.

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31
AFTER. Not before. Not secret. Not invisible. Not Scofield.
Jesus said AFTER.

There is no verse — not one — that says Jesus comes twice for the church.
There is no verse that says believers get a backstage pass while Israel takes the hit.
There is no verse that splits the people of God into fake timelines, fake covenants, and fake second chances.

You’re not defending the Gospel.
You’re defending a lie that insults the blood of Christ, mocks the testimony of the martyrs, and turns the New Covenant into a sideshow for Zionist politics.

You said my doctrine is easily debunked?
No — yours is easily sold in prophecy conferences and rejected by every apostle that ever lived.

When Jesus returns, there won’t be a Scofield study Bible left standing.
There will be fire, judgment, and glory — and those who endure to the end will be saved.
Not those who thought they’d fly out early and skip the cross.

Keep your rapture fiction.
I’ll keep the words of the King.

Noah was not “raptured.”
He was left on Earth — preserved through judgment while the wicked were taken.

“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

The ones taken were the wicked.
Noah remained.
You got it completely backwards.

In the rapture the saints RISE INTO THE AIR...FACT
Noah rose over a mile into the heavens.... FACT
THe saints are in heaven according to Jesus during the tribulation....FACT
Noah was in the heavens DURING THE FLOOD/TRIULATION...FACT
The saints return to earth in rev 19 POST TRIULATION...FACT
Noah RETURNS POST FLOOD....FACT
Noah is gathered into the ark pre flood....FACT
The saints are gathered pretribulation...FACT
Scofield is an obsession in your mind ...FACT

The five wise virgins?
They waited. They endured. They went in after the delay.

As do we.
The omission (elephant in the room) is that ;
1) The setting is OPPOSITE your doctrines setting ....so you are wrong yet again.
2) They went into the marriage chamber (heaven like the ark and Noah). .... Which your doctrine must find a way to change.
...also note that THE DOOR WAS SHUT (hmmmm like with noah?)....so many many things that flow so beautifully that your doctrine can not handle.

Not before. Not “poof, we’re gone.”
Jesus literally says the bridegroom was delayed — and only those ready when He finally came went in. (Matthew 25:5–10)

Yes. we are in the delay.
The reason they came out to meet the groom is because they were told to.
kinda like us...except not any of your teachers.

And you dare say “only the satanic army is destroyed” at the Second Coming?

Have you even read 2 Thessalonians?
“He will slay the lawless one with the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming.” — 2 Thess 2:8
“In flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who know not God...” — 2 Thess 1:8

Yes as you point out,he destroys the AC at rev 19. the second coming.

those of his army "know not God", and yes they are destroyed

Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31
AFTER. Not before. Not secret. Not invisible. Not Scofield.
Jesus said AFTER.

I already showed you that in that verse angels are gathering ,NOT JESUS...and they are gathered , FROM HEAVEN.
(you do not have any verses supporting your doctrine of the postribulation rapture..ZERO)

There is no verse — not one — that says Jesus comes twice for the church.

No need.
he comes once for the church. Never said anything different

There is no verse that says believers get a backstage pass while Israel takes the hit.

There are 2 escape verses.
one in rev
one in the gospels from Jesus.
so there are 2 for you to meddle with

There is no verse that splits the people of God into fake timelines, fake covenants, and fake second chances.

What exactly would you like me to debunk in your doctrine? pick something. I can readily oblige you.

You said my doctrine is easily debunked?
No — yours is easily sold in prophecy conferences and rejected by every apostle that ever lived.

Unpack rev 14.
Unpack the 10 virgin parable.

none that adhere to your doctrine can unpack either one

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let me break this down for you real slow:

No one’s denying people died. Yes, Hitler targeted Jews. Yes, Stalin persecuted religious groups.
But that doesn’t magically confirm biblical lineage.
Persecution doesn’t prove Abrahamic descent — it proves human depravity.

You keep yelling “JEWS!” like that settles something.
The question isn’t who calls themselves Jews.
The question is:
Are they descendants of Jacob? Of the twelve tribes?
Because biblically, that’s what Israel means.
And Khazars, Russian and Eastern Europeans — genetically, historically, geographically — are not that.
They’re converts. 8th century. Caucasus region. Look it up.

So yes — the modern Jewish “race” as defined by Zionist propaganda is a constructed identity.
One built through conversion, not covenant.
A religion — not a bloodline.

And spare me the “Arab nations want to wipe them out” line.
That’s geopolitical spin — not eschatology.
Every empire in history has been at war with someone.
You don’t validate someone’s divine election by pointing to the fact that they have enemies.
By that logic, the Uyghurs are God’s chosen too.

Bottom line:
Modern Zionism hijacked the word “Jew” to justify a state built on blood and banking —
not the Gospel, not the covenant, and sure as hell not Jesus.

So go ahead and chant “never again” all you want.
But don’t confuse Talmudic Zionism with the faith of Moses —
and don’t confuse war crimes with biblical prophecy.

The point is, the Jews you say don't exist are here and are the target of demon filled rulers and individuals.
maybe someone can Send satan the memo so he can possily stop persecuting the Jews.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Oh really?
Then who are these saints getting killed during the tribulation?
If the “church” was already raptured before the tribulation (as pre-trib teaches)...
Who are these saints?
Where did they come from?
Why are they not spared?

You can’t have it both ways.

Either:
The church is gone, and these saints are just “tribulation leftovers” (which has zero biblical support)

or

The saints go through the tribulation — just like Jesus said.

And here’s the kicker:
“It was given to [the Beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them...”
— Revelation 13:7

You know what it doesn’t say?
“It was given to the Beast to make war with the tribulation saints that got saved after the rapture and forgot to read Left Behind.”

That phrase does not exist in Scripture. It’s Scofieldian science fiction.
There’s no category of “tribulation saints” distinct from “the church.”
That’s a theological invention used to patch the holes in the sinking ship of pre-trib eschatology.

Jesus Said It Plainly:
“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send out His angels... and they will gather His elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

After.
Not before.
Not mid.
Not in a secret vanishing.

And About That “Some Man Taught You” Line…
Scofield was a man.
Darby was a man.
The whole Dispensationalist system came from men — not Jesus, not the apostles, not the early Church.

The doctrine you're clinging to was literally invented in the 1800s by a failed lawyer who slapped his own footnotes into the Bible and ended up deceiving millions.
So yeah — that “some man” you're warning me about?
You're actually parroting him.

Meanwhile, what I’m saying is backed by Jesus, Paul, Peter, and every early Christian writer for the first 1,800 years of church history — before your Scofield fantasy ever existed.

If the Antichrist kills the saints...
Then the saints are there during the tribulation.
Which means the rapture didn’t happen before.

Case closed.

AHEM
The ones taken in the pretribulation rapture are the ones JESUS SAID are taken pretribulation. (the worthy ones)
The ones killed in the pretribulation ,are those left behind....AS JESUS DECLARED.
Taken = the 5 wise virgins, the ones taken in mat 24 (before the flood) LOT, Noah, acts 1,and the 2 escape verses..(all not known by you or your teachers)
because you have only studied your doctrine , the heart of the bible is new to you.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

In the rapture the saints RISE INTO THE AIR...FACT
Noah rose over a mile into the heavens.... FACT
THe saints are in heaven according to Jesus during the tribulation....FACT
Noah was in the heavens DURING THE FLOOD/TRIULATION...FACT
The saints return to earth in rev 19 POST TRIULATION...FACT
Noah RETURNS POST FLOOD....FACT
Noah is gathered into the ark pre flood....FACT
The saints are gathered pretribulation...FACT
Scofield is an obsession in your mind ...FACT



As do we.
The omission (elephant in the room) is that ;
1) The setting is OPPOSITE your doctrines setting ....so you are wrong yet again.
2) They went into the marriage chamber (heaven like the ark and Noah). .... Which your doctrine must find a way to change.
...also note that THE DOOR WAS SHUT (hmmmm like with noah?)....so many many things that flow so beautifully that your doctrine can not handle.



Yes. we are in the delay.
The reason they came out to meet the groom is because they were told to.
kinda like us...except not any of your teachers.



Yes as you point out,he destroys the AC at rev 19. the second coming.

those of his army "know not God", and yes they are destroyed



I already showed you that in that verse angels are gathering ,NOT JESUS...and they are gathered , FROM HEAVEN.
(you do not have any verses supporting your doctrine of the postribulation rapture..ZERO)




No need.
he comes once for the church. Never said anything different


There are 2 escape verses.
one in rev
one in the gospels from Jesus.
so there are 2 for you to meddle with



What exactly would you like me to debunk in your doctrine? pick something. I can readily oblige you.


Unpack rev 14.
Unpack the 10 virgin parable.

none that adhere to your doctrine can unpack either one

You keep yelling “FACT” like that makes up for your lack of scripture.
But emotional typing isn’t exegesis — and Scofield isn’t Jesus.

Let’s deal with your “Noah was raptured” fantasy.
“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

Who was taken?
The wicked.
Noah was left — preserved through judgment.

You keep trying to reverse this with a forced parallel:
“Noah went up = saints go up.”
But the Bible doesn’t say Noah ascended into heaven.
He floated — on water — through judgment.
Not into the clouds. Not into the third heaven.
He was left on Earth, just like the remnant will be during tribulation.

Your whole interpretation turns Jesus' words completely backwards.

You say the saints are in heaven during the tribulation?
That’s your doctrine — not scripture.

Let’s quote Jesus again:

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

You keep dodging the word “after” like it’s a mosquito.
But it’s right there — red letters.
Jesus said AFTER.

And by the way — those angels are gathering from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other — that phrase includes the skies, not heaven the dwelling place of God.
Stop confusing Greek metaphors with Scofield’s footnotes.

“The five wise virgins went into the marriage chamber.”
Yes. After the delay.
Not before tribulation. Not before the shout.
And you said it yourself: “the door was shut.”
Exactly — just like Noah’s ark was shut after judgment began — not before.
You're literally proving my point while thinking you're refuting it.

You said:

“I never said Jesus comes twice for the Church.”
Yes, you do — functionally.
You teach a secret coming before tribulation, then a public coming after.
Two comings.
That’s not Bible. That’s Scofield-speak.

You want me to “unpack Revelation 14”?

Easy:
Revelation 14:12 — “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
Those saints are in the tribulation, holding fast to Jesus.
Not “tribulation leftovers.”
Not B-team believers.
They’re called saints — the same term used for the Church throughout the New Testament.

Revelation 14 doesn’t support pre-trib — it obliterates it.

And that “escape verse” in Luke?
“Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things...” — Luke 21:36

That’s not a pre-trib rapture escape clause.
It’s a call to perseverance, to be spiritually awake and found faithful when He returns — not to disappear seven years early in a Zionist fantasy timeline.

You said, “What would you like me to debunk in your doctrine?”

Start here:

Show me ONE verse that says:

Jesus returns before the tribulation to remove the Church.

The Church and Israel are permanently separate peoples of God.

The saints are in heaven during the tribulation while Israel takes the hit.

That salvation is offered in stages — Church first, then national Israel.

That Jesus comes twice, years apart.

You won’t find them.
Because they’re not in the Bible — they’re in your Scofield study notes.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

The point is, the Jews you say don't exist are here and are the target of demon filled rulers and individuals.
maybe someone can Send satan the memo so he can possily stop persecuting the Jews.

You’re not listening.

No one said “Jews don’t exist.”
I said modern Jewish identity is not synonymous with Biblical Israel.
There’s a difference between religious converts and covenant lineage —
and you keep pretending those are the same thing just because persecution exists.

Let me help you out:
Satan doesn’t target people because of ethnicity.
He targets people because of truth.
Because of Christ.

“They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony...” — Revelation 12:11

You think Satan is attacking secular, Christ-rejecting Zionists because they’re God's chosen people?
No — he's attacking because he wants chaos, division, and to keep the world confused about who God's people actually are:
those in Christ.

Jesus said:
“If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.” — John 8:39
“If God were your Father, you would love Me.” — John 8:42

But He said to them:

“You are of your father, the devil...” — John 8:44

He was speaking to Jews, by ethnicity — and He still rejected their claim to divine status because they rejected Him.

So no — being hated by the world does not confirm you’re God’s chosen.
If that were the case, every persecuted cult, tribe, and regime could make the same claim.

“In Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:28–29

That is the real Israel.

So maybe someone should send Satan a memo:
The people of God aren’t defined by a bloodline anymore.
They’re defined by the blood of Christ.
And Zionist nationalism has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

AHEM
The ones taken in the pretribulation rapture are the ones JESUS SAID are taken pretribulation. (the worthy ones)
The ones killed in the pretribulation ,are those left behind....AS JESUS DECLARED.
Taken = the 5 wise virgins, the ones taken in mat 24 (before the flood) LOT, Noah, acts 1,and the 2 escape verses..(all not known by you or your teachers)
because you have only studied your doctrine , the heart of the bible is new to you.

You just named a bunch of people and events — Noah, Lot, Acts 1, the 5 virgins — and slapped “pretrib rapture” on them like a Scofield bumper sticker. But Jesus never called any of them raptures. That’s you forcing your doctrine into the text, not drawing it from the text.

Let’s break it down.

Matthew 24 — Who Gets Taken?
“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matt 24:39

Who was taken?
The wicked.
Just like in Noah’s day.
Noah was left behind — saved through judgment.
Jesus literally says the ones taken are swept away in destruction.
You're quoting it completely backwards.

The 5 Wise Virgins?
They didn’t vanish. They waited through a long delay, then went in when the bridegroom came — after the warning cry.
That’s endurance, not escape.
The door shuts after the wait — not before it.

Lot?

Lot fled on foot, barely escaping with his life.
He wasn’t “taken” anywhere — he ran from fire.
And Jesus used Lot as an example of God preserving the righteous through judgment, not removing them beforehand.

Acts 1?
Jesus ascended — He didn’t rapture the Church.
That’s a category error.
And the angels said He will return the same way He left — once, visibly, from the clouds.
They didn’t say He’d come secretly seven years earlier to scoop up a hidden group.

The so-called ‘Escape Verses’?

Let me guess — Luke 21:36?
“Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things...”

That’s not about vanishing into the clouds.
It’s about being spiritually prepared to endure and stand before the Son of Man.
Same as Matthew 24:13 —

“He who endures to the end shall be saved.”

You keep turning warnings about faithfulness into excuses for escapism.

“Worthy Ones Taken Pretrib”?

Where’s the verse?
Where does Jesus say “those counted worthy will be taken before the tribulation begins”?

You won’t find it — because it doesn’t exist.

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect...” — Matthew 24:29–31

That’s your timeline — right there in red letters.
AFTER.

You don’t get to quote Jesus out of context in five places and ignore the one spot where He clearly lays out the timing.

Bottom line:
You’re not teaching what Jesus said.
You’re teaching what Scofield said Jesus meant.

There’s not a single verse that describes a secret pretrib rapture of the Church.
There’s not a single verse that creates a second group of "tribulation saints."
There’s not a single verse where Jesus “takes the worthy away” and leaves others behind to earn salvation 2.0.

What there is —
is a clear teaching of endurance, judgment, and final gathering after tribulation.
That’s what Jesus, Paul, and the early Church taught.

And until you can quote something other than Scofield-filtered allegory,
your doctrine’s not just wrong —
it’s deception.

Case still closed.