Does Judging Work?

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aspen

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Apr 25, 2012
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Robbie -

I think it is crazy that you are being so clear, yet only a few people get what you are saying.
 

bud02

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LOL Buddy, please wake up.

A quick perusal of one or two other threads show me to be one of them arguing against many teaching of the Catholic church, including the importance placed on their pope.

I am not Catholic.

But don't be discouraged. Remember, you are a winner just for trying ;)

I just went back and read quite a few of your replies. I won't take your comments personally as it appears this kind of smug response is right in line with your personality.
Can both fresh and salt water flow from the same well? I'm not going to continue the dialog as it is exactly what you want. Your rather good at counterfeiting.
 

Martin W.

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..

Foreigner .... you missed the whole point earlier , but then again it wouldn't be the first time.


================================================================

The only thing that's ever caused true repentance in me is Jesus changing my heart... His Kingship ruling my inner self... all judgments from outward parties has ever done was caused me to wash the outside of the cup while leaving the inside still dirty... nobody will ever stop sinning because another sinner judged them... true repentance only comes from the morning star rising in our heart and removing the darkness... in order for that to happen we have to stop trying to self justify ourselves by focusing on the sins of others... and we have to say God be merciful to me a sinner... please make us clean inside... if the inside is clean so is the outside... inward washing will never be achieved through outward judgment... only by the inward Spirit of God...

Perfect , well said Robbie , thanks.
 

mjrhealth

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Sry bud but the pope has no authortiy to forgive anyones sin. As for witness,

a. One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced: a witness to the accident.
b. One who furnishes evidence.

Ie we are supposed to act as if Christ Himself was there, to do anything outside teh way He does things is to be a false witness, for we are showing Christ as how He is not. Beny Hyn, could lay claim to millions being saved through his ministry, yet when the final count is done, he has done little, for there are no real conversions. We are supposed to be Christ Like, so sit with the , so called " sinners", and to become their friends, to show them love and compassion as Jesus did, to defend them from the enemy as Jesus did, do forgive them as Jesus did. But I see christians taking the Gospel and using it to "accuse " people, taht is what the devil does. When you tell someone they are a sinner, you are making accusations, you take the side of the devil. The women who commited adultry, Jesus stood and protected her from the acuusers, and He will so today, He hasnt changed.

In His love
 

Rach1370

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Has anyone considered how many times the word 'rebuke' is in the Bible?

Rebuke is defined as: "to express sharp, stern disapproval of; reprove; reprimand."
“‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt. (Lev 19:17 NIV)

[5] It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise
than to hear the song of fools.
(Ecclesiastes 7:5 ESV)

[sup]19[/sup] But when John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of his marriage to Herodias, his brother’s wife, and all the other evil things he had done, (Luke 3:19 NIV)



[3] Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him,
(Luke 17:3 ESV)


[sup][20] As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
(1 Timothy 5:20 ESV)
[/sup]

[2] preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. [3] For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, [4] and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
(2 Timothy 4:2-4 ESV)


There are just so many. But please note that this is NOT the same as making judgment on someone.
Now as you want a direct answer to the judgment question: I do believe there are certain times we are called to judge some one or something....but they are few, usually within the Church and must be done with careful consideration and prayer. For eg: what if your pastor was found to be cheating on his wife? Do you keep that pastor, not rebuke him for his sin...clearly he is not following the precepts that the Bible places on him to live a Christian leaders life. But if this pastor is not judged...by Gods words, not ours, he would be left where he is, poisoning his Church family with his sin...and his apparent ability to get away with it.

But as the whole topic of conversation isn't really dealing with this sort of thing, but more the 'if we tell anyone they're a sinner, we are judging them', I have to disagree heartily. I have already given you my thoughts above, but it seems they are not sufficient. And so I give you the concept of Biblical rebuking to consider. Grab a concordance and do a search for the word...you might be surprised.

And truly....as I said before...if you are serious about spreading the Gospel....I just don't know how you can take telling people of sin out of the equation. Without realising we are sinners, we cannot come to the realization that we need Jesus. Its really as simple as that.
 

bud02

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Sry bud but the pope has no authortiy to forgive anyones sin. As for witness,


Did I say he could? Its unbelieveable what people interpret. My remark was in a sarcastice tone, in other words he can't and never could forgive sins.
But many think other wise. Just how did you come to the conclusion I believed he could?
 

Foreigner

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I just went back and read quite a few of your replies. I won't take your comments personally as it appears this kind of smug response is right in line with your personality.


-- Your next post indicates that we share the same affliction:

Did I say he could? Its unbelieveable what people interpret. My remark was in a sarcastice tone,


I'm not going to continue the dialog as it is exactly what you want. Your rather good at counterfeiting.

-- I hope you keep your word in this matter bud, because if anyone here can speak from experience about counterfeiting...
 

bud02

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-- Your next post indicates that we share the same affliction:


-- I hope you keep your word in this matter bud, because if anyone here can speak from experience about counterfeiting...
bud02 says; I just can't resist toying with proud.

Is pointing out the pope has no power or authority to forgive sins the truth? It is ridiculously, sarcastically, true to those that know the truth.

-- Your next post indicates that we share the same affliction:

You would like nothing better than to include me in your house or entice me to leave solid ground.
And lets not forget that the Mother of harlots, indicates she has daughters. ;)
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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Hey Foreigner - when did you become Catholic? Welcome home!

HAHA
 

bud02

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Hey Foreigner - when did you become Catholic? Welcome home!

HAHA

Theirs lots of branches from the catholic church or didn't you know? Her teaching is very much alive in many "Christians teleology today. Mother of harlots.
 

aspen

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Theirs lots of branches from the catholic church or didn't you know? Her teaching is very much alive in many "Christians teleology today. Mother of harlots.


All Christianity is rooted in the Catholic Church, Bud or didn't you know? Sounds like you need to respect your mother....
 

Rach1370

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All Christianity is rooted in the Catholic Church, Bud or didn't you know? Sounds like you need to respect your mother....

Ah...I hesitate to point out that all Christianity is rooted in Jesus Christ and the bible. Everything and anything, be it Protestant or Catholic, whatever the denomination, all comes from that.
You can't say a faith comes from a Church....a Church has to come from a faith....
 

aspen

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Ah...I hesitate to point out that all Christianity is rooted in Jesus Christ and the bible. Everything and anything, be it Protestant or Catholic, whatever the denomination, all comes from that.
You can't say a faith comes from a Church....a Church has to come from a faith....

The Catholic Church wasn't considered a denomination until Luther - in fact, it was considered the universal church for 1500 years prior - nor was it referred to as "the mother of harlots"


 

Robbie

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Hey Rach....

I'm to lazy to talk about all the scriptures you posted and I don't believe anyone would want to read how long my post would be anyways... haha... the one thing I will say though is I don't believe any of them are a license to walk around judging people or pointing out everybody's sins...

I'll talk about the one that really got my attention... probably because Jesus said it... I'm going to quote it more in context though...

[sup]"[/sup]Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”


It sounds to me like Jesus is talking about what would cause offense to His name... and then He goes on to say that if our brother sins against us we should let him know... and if he repents to forgive him... and even if he does something wrong to us personally 7 times a day and comes admitting his fault we should forgive them... that to me doesn't sound anything like a license to judge... it sounds more to me like a commandment to forgive... which basically is just all summed up in Love one another the way our Father loves us.

In the context of it, it also sounds like maybe our unforgiveness towards each other will cause offense to the name of Jesus... and if we are that way WOE to us... which goes along with, "If we don't forgive we won't be forgiven and if we judge we'll be judged"

Also all of those scriptures sound like they're more about personal relationships... like one is about brothers... and the other about someone who is teaching... well I'm always down to let my brother know if they've done something wrong to me and if they say they're sorry I forgive them... I also do my best to forgive them even if they don't because I realize my unforgiveness towards others only hurts me... it's like giving someone free rent in my head and like punching myself in the face and expecting it to hurt them... because bitter unforgiveness hurts me way worst than the person I'm holding a grudge against... actually it only hurts me....

Jesus didn't tell us to forgive just to make a rule... He told us to forgive because it sets us free from negative states of bitterness and hate within ourselves... and also to extend to others the love and grace our Father has shown us...
 

Rach1370

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Robbie, I advocate love and forgiveness as strongly as you do; indeed they are essential to Christianity.

But do you honestly think that telling people the gospel - which states we are ALL sinners, is judging? It can't be as we are told to speak to gospel to everyone.

As far as rebuking goes...I would like to point out that if done lovingly within a Christian environment, it Canberra a blessing of conviction, repentance and growth. Which is all necessary on our journey of sanctification.
If you cannot hear a loving rebuke from a brother in Christ, perhaps you should pray about it. Truly, it is not judging, it is lovingly helping each other not to stumble over sin...and encouraging each other to repent and keep looking to Jesus!!!
 

Foreigner

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Speaking of being a good Catholic...


Aspen, are you going to be a good little Catholic listen to and support the head of your church and Christ's "representative here on earth?"



Pope says gay marriage threat to creation
By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict on Tuesday linked the Church's opposition to gay marriage to concern about the environment, suggesting that laws undermining "the differences between the sexes" were threats to creation.

The pope made his comments in an address to diplomats in his yearly assessment of world events. The main theme of the address was the environment and the protection of creation.

"To carry our reflection further, we must remember that the problem of the environment is complex; one might compare it to a multifaceted prism," he said.

"Creatures differ from one another and can be protected, or endangered, in different ways, as we know from daily experience. One such attack comes from laws or proposals which, in the name of fighting discrimination, strike at the biological basis of the difference between the sexes," he said.

"I am thinking, for example, of certain countries in Europe or North and South America," he said.

This was a clear reference to legislation either enacted or proposed in several part of the world.

Last month, Mexico City became the first capital in Catholic Latin America to allow same-sex marriage.

In California, the U.S. state's ban on gay marriage goes to trial on Monday in a federal case that plaintiffs hope to take all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and overturn bans throughout the nation.

Gay marriage is legal is several U.S. states and some European countries.

"Yet freedom cannot be absolute, since man is not God, but the image of God, God's creation. For man, the path to be taken cannot be determined by caprice or willfulness, but must rather correspond to the structure willed by the Creator," he said.

In his speech to diplomats from more than 170 countries, the pope repeated the themes of his message for the Church's World Day of Peace on January 1, which said industrialized nations must recognize their responsibility for the environmental crisis, shed their consumerism and embrace more sober lifestyles.
 

Foreigner

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Robbie, I advocate love and forgiveness as strongly as you do; indeed they are essential to Christianity.

But do you honestly think that telling people the gospel - which states we are ALL sinners, is judging? It can't be as we are told to speak to gospel to everyone.

As far as rebuking goes...I would like to point out that if done lovingly within a Christian environment, it Canberra a blessing of conviction, repentance and growth. Which is all necessary on our journey of sanctification.
If you cannot hear a loving rebuke from a brother in Christ, perhaps you should pray about it. Truly, it is not judging, it is lovingly helping each other not to stumble over sin...and encouraging each other to repent and keep looking to Jesus!!!

-- Very good post.


"Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction." - 2 Tim 4:2


 

Robbie

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Rach,

The TRUTH is that what I've been saying this whole time is that sharing the gospel isn't judging... that it is stating that we're all sinners so we have no room to judge each other... that all sin is equal so pointing out individul sins is pointless because whether we're a self righteous pharisee or a wicked tax collector without Jesus we're all in the same boat... condemned...

Also the point that the only thing that's ever caused true repentance in me is Jesus changing my heart... His Kingship ruling my inner self... all judgments from outward parties has ever done was caused me to wash the outside of the cup while leaving the inside still dirty... nobody will ever stop sinning because another sinner judged them... true repentance only comes from the morning star rising in our heart and removing the darkness... in order for that to happen we have to stop trying to self justify ourselves by focusing on the sins of others... and we have to say God be merciful to me a sinner... please make us clean inside... if the inside is clean so is the outside... inward washing will never be achieved through outward judgment... only by the inward Spirit of God...

Also... that because we're imperfect... when we judge... we start a vicious cycle that starts with defensiveness and then returns judgment and that this will go back and forth until we devour each other because we each have so many flaws we can just pick each other apart all day long which has been proven in this thread...... if we can't see that we have no right to judge it's probably because we're self justifying ourselves by focusing on the short comings of those around us instead of our own... like the principle of the parable that Jesus spoke.

Also that I agree with Jesus that His way is the right way... that if our Brother sins against us we should let them know and even if they sin against us 7 times a day and 7 times a day come back and say they repent that we should forgive them... I also agree that our unforgiveness towards each other causes offense to the name of Jesus because people see the hypocrisy in the fact that we're sinners and we want God to forgive us but we're not willing to forgive each other.

Also that I personally believe that forgiveness sets us free from negative states within ourselves because holding a grudge only hurts the person holding it and not the person it's against.

Jesus words are not a burden... they actually set us free...

So... does judging work? hahahahhah

The thing is... if someone wants to judge they'll find a reason why it's OK for them... and I understand why people like to judge... it caters to our ego... it makes us feel like we're above... and pride and ego loves feeling like it's above... like I remember when I used to go to this church... the pastor was constantly talking about how stupid this religion was or that religion was... at the time I thought that was spirituality lifting me because I thought feeling right was righteousness... then came the day that I realized that it wasn't feeding my Spirit... it was feeding my ego and my pride which was obvious by the fruit it bared... instead of creating love for for others it made me feel judgmental and bitter towards them... you know a tree by it's fruit....

Hope this blesses... <LIGHT>
 

TexUs

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What do you think Church Discipline entails?

What do you think correcting and rebuking entails?

What do you suppose determining weather or not someone is saved and needs the gospel entails?



So you must ask yourself, is there a "judging" (human term) and then a "judging" (God's term)?
 

Robbie

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I personally believe judging is judging... I'm not looking for some loophole in the scriptures or some different translation of the original Hebrew word that's gonna tell me that what Jesus really meant is I'm supposed to judge... haha... I keep it simple and it honestly just makes perfect sense to me why we're not supposed to...

As far as rebuking Jesus tells us to do it when our brother sins against us... and I do this whenever my friends wrong me... it's way better than being nice to their face and holding a grudge and talking behind their back... so I tell them... and sometimes it's as simple as me telling them to quit acting like a kook... other times it's been me having to have heavy talks about how their behavior is making me feel... this to me is just being a good friend... and if they repent I forgive them... but I always try to forgive them anyways...

As far as correcting... here's an example... the other day my friend came over and told me he had been talking to a married woman at work and he felt there was starting to be a connection... so what I said was, "Whoa dude... that sounds kind of dangerous... what if the guy finds out and wants to fight you.. and besides... how would you want someone to handle the situation if it was your chick? also.. if a chicks willing to cheat on someone to be with you... there's a chance she'll be cheating on you to be with someone else next... you're over that chick... you're a good looking dude... wait for something good... I mean... I struggle with lust to but we just can't forget that when we let it control us it ends up leading us in bad directions" That to me is correction between brothers... because I'm not putting myself above him... I'm seeing him as my equal who's struggling with the same temptations I do. I guarantee this... if I said to Him, "Repent Sinner" he would have been out my door telling all my friends what a judgmental hypocrite I had become..

I mean Jesus was perfect and had the right to judge but how many times do you see Him walking around judging? I mean He told the woman to, "Go and sin no more" after He protected her from judgment and condemnation. But I would have said the same thing to one of my friends if they just almost got the heck kicked out of them for committing adultery... I'd be like, "Dude... stop hanging out with married chicks or your gonna end up with your teeth kicked in"

So I don't look at things so much as some structured religious thing... like some hierarchy where I'm "rebuking" everyone for their sins... personally I feel like that would make me a big wanker... so I just love my friends... and as long as I'm doing that I'm doing what the Lord commanded me...