Does Judging Work?

[aspen]

wow your over here now.
say aspen maybe you and selene should grab your brown scapular and prayer beads and preform an excommunication.
woo woo woo now......... wait,........ that would be judging now wouldn't it.

Yes, I tend to respond to different threads.

Are you trying to be funny?

Don't yall think it rather strange that a member of the only christian church in the world that fancy's its self as the sole judge and jury on earth is here telling every one not to judge.

What is it they say........ clean up your own house before you tell me how to keep mine.

It's just the love, Bud :)

 

[bud02]

It's just the love, Bud :)

Its just the hypocrisy aspen :)

 

[aspen]

Its just the hypocrisy aspen :)

I'll let you handle that.

 

[Foreigner]

Speaking of being a good Catholic...


Aspen, are you going to be a good little Catholic listen to and support the head of your church and Christ's "representative here on earth?"



Pope says gay marriage threat to creation
By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict on Tuesday linked the Church's opposition to gay marriage to concern about the environment, suggesting that laws undermining "the differences between the sexes" were threats to creation.

The pope made his comments in an address to diplomats in his yearly assessment of world events. The main theme of the address was the environment and the protection of creation.

"To carry our reflection further, we must remember that the problem of the environment is complex; one might compare it to a multifaceted prism," he said.

"Creatures differ from one another and can be protected, or endangered, in different ways, as we know from daily experience. One such attack comes from laws or proposals which, in the name of fighting discrimination, strike at the biological basis of the difference between the sexes," he said.

"I am thinking, for example, of certain countries in Europe or North and South America," he said.

This was a clear reference to legislation either enacted or proposed in several part of the world.

Last month, Mexico City became the first capital in Catholic Latin America to allow same-sex marriage.

In California, the U.S. state's ban on gay marriage goes to trial on Monday in a federal case that plaintiffs hope to take all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and overturn bans throughout the nation.

Gay marriage is legal is several U.S. states and some European countries.

"Yet freedom cannot be absolute, since man is not God, but the image of God, God's creation. For man, the path to be taken cannot be determined by caprice or willfulness, but must rather correspond to the structure willed by the Creator," he said.

In his speech to diplomats from more than 170 countries, the pope repeated the themes of his message for the Church's World Day of Peace on January 1, which said industrialized nations must recognize their responsibility for the environmental crisis, shed their consumerism and embrace more sober lifestyles.

-- Still waiting on an answer from Aspen. Is the Pope a "violator of human rights" that you claim those that oppose Gay Marraige are?

 

[Duckybill]

-- Still waiting on an answer from Aspen. Is the Pope a "violator of human rights" that you claim those that oppose Gay Marraige are?

Yes Aspen, we'd like to hear what you have to say about this. Is the Pope in error? Or is he infallible?

 

[TexUs]

How about this one, Aspen?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/03/pope-condemns-vile-killin_n_803890.html

Your precious pope is condemning a specific act done by a specific individual.

Paul was not talking about individuals - he was making a short list of general sinners that will not be welcomed into heaven.

And you don't think those sins have individuals performing them?

Murder is a sin. You feel it's OK to let people continue murdering? Because judging, "OK, this is murder- the Bible says this is wrong- this person needs Christ" involves judging what they did is a sin and they need Christ. You'll never witness to anyone, ever, because of your perverted views of judgement?




Or perhaps, and I think this is the truth, you simply don't practice what you preach.

AKA, hypocracy.

 

[Robbie]

How's the list in Romans... so gnarly... pretty much means everyone.... has anyone not failed in at least one of those ways?

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

People who don't forgive, covet, don't show mercy, people who backbite which means to speak spitefully or slanderous about a person, people who were disobedient to their parents, people who are proud, people who boast, etc... and all this is clumped together with people who are sexually immoral and hate God...

Pretty much I can't look at that list without believing that if I'm judged I will be screwed and hopeless... and that my only hope is for the mercy and grace that's in the blood of Jesus Christ to cover my sins and wash me... and for that I give my Father and His Son all the glory and thank them for loving me so much... if left to my own... I wouldn't have a chance...

Because I don't want to be judged I should not judged... as Christ my teacher has taught me...

Judging does not work... because if we were judged we'd be condemned... and God's Will is that we'd be saved... the whole reason that Jesus came... to save us because we're all already condemned...

Hope this blesses...

 

[Rach1370]

Rach - I never claimed that Catholicism teaches any of the solas I listed. I said, there is no historical record of the early church teaching any of them - regardless of the labels. The Catholic Church does not teach them because they are later doctrine, unknown to Christianity for 1500 years.

Sola Scriptura in particular was created as reasoning for breaking away from Catholicism. Unfortunately, it has lead to private interpretation of scripture, countless denominations, and radical individualism.

So hey...how do you figure the sola doctrines weren't around in the Early Church when the premise for these doctrines is found in scripture....which was the Early Church?

The reformation was in many ways a fight over the doctrine of justification. Paul say, “We are justified – declared righteous in the sight of God, though guilty sinners – solely by faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ alone.” (Philippians 3) That’s all. This is all found purely in scripture...not through Church Tradition. The Reformation was an attempt to get back to basic Biblical teaching, something the Catholic Church has deviated from for hundreds of years. I'm not saying all Catholic teaching is unscriptural; but anything that teaches Jesus plus...rather than just Jesus, is not found in scripture....it's religion, not Christianity.

I'm also not saying that all Protestant Churches have it right either. The problem always comes when a Church thinks they can add to the Bible, add rules and regulations other than just Jesus and his gift of grace.
The Bible teaches a process of justification, sanctification and then glorification. Justification is a free gift from Christ and of course glorification comes when we see Him again, but the real problem is the journey of sanctification. Sanctification is where you now have a relationship with God where He is changing you to be more and more like Jesus. To often religions stuff rules and Church expectations into this process, rather than it being a road you walk with Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit....learning, grown and being convicted along the way.

I know you are not trying to fight with me - I do not see you as a hater of the Catholic Church at all. I do know that there are people out their who are though and I think this should be my last post on Catholicism. One last thing.....if you have read my posts (outside of the Catholic thread) I rarely talk about Catholic doctrine - I was raised Protestant and I believe Christians are inside and outside the Catholic Church. My focus is Christ not doctrine.

I do know that many Catholics do follow Christ, and are therefore my brother or sister. but it does sadden me to see so many others get caught up in the religion of it, thinking that if they go to confession and say 100 Hail Mary's that they'll get into heaven fine. They need Jesus, not religion, not empty rituals.
Honestly, how many fellow Catholics that you know think that? They claim to be a practicing Catholic, but quite visibly, you cannot see any sign of Jesus in their lives? No regeneration? No fruit of the Spirit? No growth and new life? And yet they would probably tell you that as a practicing Catholic they'll see heaven? They believe this because the Catholic Church encourages it, they encourage it with the encouragement to follow the churches 'rules'. I really think this is why so many Protestants have a problem with your Church....they believe it's doctrines and traditions distract men from the real issue....Jesus. What point is going to confession, taking communion, praying to the saints, saying hail Mary's, if they don't love Christ??
Now granted, there are problems in our Churches too....too often we look the other way when we're aware of people professing to be Christian, and again, we see no life change.
But we can say, those of us that stick to sound Biblical doctrines...the sola's we've talked about, that if those people are really listening in Church, they are aware of what's needed for salvation...we do not distract them with unnecessary rules. Not that sinful people need an excuse to be distracted!! But I think that's why its so important to stick...dead center, to the scriptures.

I know you believe you Church does....but truly, any teaching that claims we need Jesus plus something else, is just not Biblical. That's really what I believe, and I'm not having a go at you, I'm just trying to explore the reasons that others maybe do. I am very glad that you focus on Christ....and apart from that I really don't care, and I don't imagine our Savior does either, how you choose to love and worship Him!!

 

[TexUs]

I do know that many Catholics do follow Christ, and are therefore my brother or sister. but it does sadden me to see so many others get caught up in the religion of it

If someone asks a question of Christians, and the first response is to go to what Catholics teach (verses going to the Bible), would you consider that "caught up in the religion of it"?


I ask because that's what aspen and selene have done on here in the past.

 

[Foreigner]

I do know that many Catholics do follow Christ, and are therefore my brother or sister. but it does sadden me to see so many others get caught up in the religion of it, thinking that if they go to confession and say 100 Hail Mary's that they'll get into heaven fine. They need Jesus, not religion, not empty rituals.

-- Amen.

Man-created rituals and unsupported beliefs are the reason millions - like me - finally left the Catholic church.

The justification for some of these beliefs would border on comical if it weren't for the damage it does to those weak enough to believe them.

When Selene was pressed as to how the Church could be justified in preaching that Mary was taken bodily into heaven and didn't die, her response was "well it happened to others and there is nothing in the Bible that says it DIDN'T happen." Unbelievable.

Justifications like this are how souls are lost.

- Mary being taken to heaven bodily and not dying.
- Praying to Mary and to the dead saints.
- Claiming Mary remained celebate and had no other children after Jesus.
- Bread and wine literally turning into Jesus' body and blood at every mass (I thought he only had to be sacrificed once...)
- Saying multiple :"Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys" after Confession as pennance for sins.
- The use of the Scapular even though it flies in the face of what is truly needed to be saved.
- The infallibility of the pope.
- Purgatory being a physical place.
- Indulgances.
- Not eating meat on Fridays.
- The Apocrypha.
- Praying the Rosary.

It takes more faith to believe in these false teachings than it does to trust that Jesus is enough for you.

So why do them?

In simpler terms, these practices take the focus off of Jesus. This should never be the case.

 

[TexUs]

In simpler terms, these practices take the focus off of Jesus. This should never be the case.

Exactly. My point is on an individual basis, how many individuals do it to the extent these things become their god, and not Christ? You can't call that Christianity.

 

[Rach1370]

[/size]
If someone asks a question of Christians, and the first response is to go to what Catholics teach (verses going to the Bible), would you consider that "caught up in the religion of it"?


I ask because that's what aspen and selene have done on here in the past.

I certainly don't agree with a lot of their responses...those being their typical Catholic answers. But when you hear them talk there is no doubt they love Jesus as well. So I don't doubt they are saved, as the Bible tells us that anyone who believes in Him and loves Him will come to the Father. I am disappointed that they could be using their passion for JUST Jesus, rather than Jesus plus Catholism.

But as they do love Jesus, this means they are our brother and sister, and this being the case, sure we should encourage them back to the bible only and Jesus only, but don't you think it should be done with love and compassion? As Christians we should show everyone this, so why not Aspen and Selene??

 

[TexUs]

I am disappointed that they could be using their passion for JUST Jesus, rather than Jesus plus Catholism.

Does Jesus demand divided attention or whole surrender?

In addition to that, is it possible to have a house divided? Partly devoted to Christ and the other to sin (What is not of Christ is sin)?

 

[Rach1370]

Does Jesus demand divided attention or whole surrender?

In addition to that, is it possible to have a house divided? Partly devoted to Christ and the other to sin (What is not of Christ is sin)?

I think its up to us to live as we've been convicted. Those of us who love Jesus have the Holy Spirit within us. For me I'm led and I choose to give myself completely to Christ, and to try and share that wonder with others.

I do not agree with Catholicism, but if I know a Catholic to really love Jesus, then they ARE my brothers and sisters in Christ....and that is from the Bible. I can try and show them what the Bible really says, in terms of these other religious practices they do, but after that it's for the Holy Spirit to convict and lead them, and not for us to condemn them.

Remember the Early Church. The Apostles loved Jesus, and yet they still went to synagogue. Just because a person is perhaps being misled and even a little foolish in their beliefs, does not make them unbelievers. Remember what Paul said:

[Do All to the Glory of God]
[23] “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.
(1 Corinthians 10:23 ESV)

Once covered by Jesus, we are free. Catholic's who have a faith in Jesus are redeemed. It does not make their other...let's call them non biblical, practices wise or even beneficial to their faith, but I imagine that even Protestants have other practices; maybe even other 'religious' pit falls, like 'rules' or 'forgiving', that still drag us back. I mean, just look at this forum...how many silly little rules do we find causing arguments? We're all sinful, all needing Jesus...and as you said...Is it possible to have a divided house? Over what brother? Over whose follies are worse? Under Christ we are all one, and it's only human divisiveness that gets in the way. And I truly believe that giving scorn and condemnation to Catholics is not going to help us to help them.

 

[[email protected]]

The homosexual thread got me thinking about the subject of judging... not judging homosexuals.... just judging in general... especially after I tried to prove my point to foreigner by doing to them what they were telling

The only thing that draws us to God is His Love... those who are under the Law think the revelation of God comes through experiencing His judgment... those who are under grace think the revlation of God comes through Jesus Christ... who is the revelation of God's Love... sending His Son to die for us when we were at our worst.

This is another thing I've noticed... if we judge others we won't just be judged by God... we'll be judged by them... what's the first thing you do when a chick calls another chick fat? you judge whether they're fat...

Robbie said in the begining of this thread that "the only thing that draws us to God is His Love". How about conviction of sin? That's a big one. Did not John the Baptist preceed Christ in the world? Was his ministry not one of repentance? If repentance is God's pattern, God's example, and God's act, how does Robbie come up with a superior plan?

Love is over rated. The subject is inaccurate. Especially what the secular world as well as a few Christians call the love of God.
In point of fact, LOVE is used as an excuse or mask or smoke screen to hide or otherwise confuse the very serious issue of sin.
Love, especially God's love, will NEVER serve as a license for sin.
Unfortunately that is exactly what the world and many confused Christians think it means.

What is really needed to change a man's heart is something with a little more substance to it, a little more meat in it.

Whatever happened to repentance?
It is not discussed anywhere. Neither is it preached from any pulpit that I've been priviledged to attend.
No man can come to God without first confessing and then repenting of his sin. THEN the love of God kicks in for forgiveness.

What happens between sin and forgiveness? It's a thing called conviction of sin. The Holy Spirit convinces a man that he is a sinner before God, his family and himself. That serious and constant convincing is the motivating factor to surrender to Christ. Conviction of sin may also include fear of judgment. Divine judgment. Eternal judgment.

Christians are not to be refrained from judgment, but we ARE cautioned to exercise judgment cautiously.
As Robbie said, one who is himself guilty of an indiscretion cannot legitimately judge another. Can a fat man sell TV time talking about weight loss? Not for long. Pretty soon people will see that he is not serious.
St Paul wrote some pretty specific guidlines for judging Christians within the church. If Christians were to refrain from judgment, such guidelines and cautions would not be issued. In fact, Christians are even given authority to judge angels. That's pretty potent stuff if you ask me.

How can the Bible say that Christians have the authority to judge angels and not men? It doesn't, but those who wish to justify their own love of darkness and wickedness would like us to think so.

Love, repentance, and the forgiveness of God are NEVER LICENSE TO SIN.

 

[TexUs]

I do not agree with Catholicism, but if I know a Catholic to really love Jesus, then they ARE my brothers and sisters in Christ....

See I believe this is a fine line. Cross Plus is dividing your faith between Christ and the other idol.
I think Paul makes the case that Cross Plus believers are not of Christ at all:



Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
[font="Georgia][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
Now... why I said it is a fine line is this: It's often hard to differentiate between Cross Plus and other beliefs that actually stem from "faith working through love". What's dangerous is we, outside looking in, often cannot tell. We don't know why they believe what they believe. Is it "faith working through love", or is it Cross Plus?


That in mind go back and look at my question. When someone asks, "What do you Christians say about ___", and the immediate response is, "Well, the Catholic tradition teaches"... Is that a spirit of "faith working through love", or a spirit of Cross Plus?

That's simply my point. I figured it might spur a little bit of thought at least.

 

[Robbie]

I'm trying to find anywhere in this topic where someone was handing out licenses to sin? (Not chasing someone down and trying to citizen arrest them because they ran a stop sign isn't the same as handing out a drivers license... haha)

I also can't see anywhere that anyone said that turning to God wasn't a good thing?

I also specifically see where Jesus teaches, "Don't judge or you'll be judged"

I also don't see anywhere where Jesus says that, "Love is overrated"

I see where He says His commandment is to, "Love one another" and that people will know those who are taught by Him because they'll, "Love one another" which is in direct contradiction to "Love is overrated"

Jesus is my only teacher so I'll stick with His Way...

If Love is overrated... His commandment is overrated... because He commanded us to Love one another.

I believe it's only God's Love and Grace that draws us to repentance... that causes us to turn back to Him... the prodigal son didn't look back at his Father and get convicted of his sin... he looked back to his Father and thought about how good his Father was even to His servants... it's a revelation of God's Love that makes us want to turn back to Him... if the prodigal son would have looked back and thought about how his Father beat the crap out of everyone who sinned he would have kept running and running as far away from his Father's judgment as possible... but he looked back and remembered how good his Father was... it's the revelation of how good our Father is that makes us want to run to Him... that revelation is in Christ alone...

It was that revelation of his Father's goodness that made him think to himself that if he just humbled himself and returned to his Father that even if his Father would just make him a servant in His House that he would be in a better place than he was in the world he was in...

That's something Jesus shows us... don't be afraid of God... run to Him... He loves you so much that He gave His son so we could return to His House and live with Him in His Love forever...

If someone believes Love is overrated... they believe God is overrated... because God is Love...

Hope this blesses...

 

[Robbie]

PS: My guess is that if Protestants and Catholics chose to judge each others establishments they'd both find so many flaws that the vicious cycle of back and forth judgments could go on for so long it would eventually escalate into a full on war... oh never mind... it already did...

Don't Judge, Don't Condemn, Forgive, Love, ETC...

These are the simple answers...

JESUS IS RIGHT... GOD IS LOVE...

 

[Rach1370]

See I believe this is a fine line. Cross Plus is dividing your faith between Christ and the other idol.
I think Paul makes the case that Cross Plus believers are not of Christ at all:

[font="Georgia][i]Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[color="#666666"][font="Verdana] [/font][/color]by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.[/i][/font]

See, I tend to see this passage as saying that anyone who places the law (or religious practices of any sort...a bit like our friend Ecc) above Jesus...more important to Jesus, well, then, they fall from grace. It's hard for anyone like that to receive the free gift of grace when they're working so hard for their own merit.

But I still don't think you should deny Jesus loving Catholics two simple things: 1, their salvation in Jesus if they really have faith in Jesus (it would, after all, be for Jesus to decide!!), and 2, the decency of not trashing a fellow Christian.

Now... why I said it is a fine line is this: It's often hard to differentiate between Cross Plus and other beliefs that actually stem from "faith working through love". What's dangerous is we, outside looking in, often cannot tell. We don't know why they believe what they believe. Is it "faith working through love", or is it Cross Plus?

That in mind go back and look at my question. When someone asks, "What do you Christians say about ___", and the immediate response is, "Well, the Catholic tradition teaches"... Is that a spirit of "faith working through love", or a spirit of Cross Plus?

This is true, we cannot tell, and I don't doubt that many Catholics fall into this trap, which is sad and tragic. But how many Protestants do you know that have a Cross Plus policy too? "People who drink, smoke, have tattoos, hang out with sinners...man, those people aren't real Christians." What of Christians who believe in the prosperity gospel, the Christians who believe that sick people don't have enough faith? All wrong, but as they still claim to love Jesus, can we really say "Not Christian" and then treat them with contempt? Would that contempt really help them to see what the Bible and Jesus really say?? And if we're being honest, what in our own lives distract from just the Cross? I get so caught up in doing things, that too often I just don't spend enough time in thought or prayer with God. Its so easy to be caught up in the Plus, that I just don't feel we have the right to be pointing to Jesus loving Catholics and saying "your Plus means you don't love Jesus".

That's simply my point. I figured it might spur a little bit of thought at least.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, doctrine wise. But it does trouble me that Aspen and Selene get dumped on so hard, especially when they do love Jesus. Sure, I don't really like or agree with their Catholic teachings, or whatever....I usually jump in there and tell them it should come from the bible, not the Catholic Church. But by loving them as brother and sister in Christ, I can have a much better discussion about these things with them.
Just a thought.

 

[TexUs]

But I still don't think you should deny Jesus loving Catholics two simple things: 1, their salvation in Jesus if they really have faith in Jesus (it would, after all, be for Jesus to decide!!), and 2, the decency of not trashing a fellow Christian.

Of course I cannot deny their salvation- that is, if they have it. I'm simply showing you my thinking for why it's called into question. Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling...
And I hardly consider this trashing a Christian- I'm rebuking their false beliefs- read any of Paul's letters- he did the same thing.

But how many Protestants do you know that have a Cross Plus policy too?

I don't disagree with you. I'll knock Protestants just as much as I do Catholics. The difference is protestant churches are more autonomous so each one differs whereas the Catholic religion is just uniform heresy.

What of Christians who believe in the prosperity gospel, the Christians who believe that sick people don't have enough faith? All wrong, but as they still claim to love Jesus, can we really say "Not Christian" and then treat them with contempt?

Not with contempt but with rebuke.

My human nature, I'd admit, comes to the surface when people so blindly follow their denomination, or church, and I- personally- hold them in contempt at times and I shouldn't. The Biblical thing to do, however, is rebuke them. Paul never sat on the sidelines and let heresy continue.

And if we're being honest, what in our own lives distract from just the Cross?

Absolutely. This is why we should be open to rebuke, stay in the Bible to know what's true, and be held accountable to others that can freely point out these idols that compete with Christ in our lives.

But it does trouble me that Aspen and Selene get dumped on so hard, especially when they do love Jesus.

I guess that's where you and me differ because I don't see this.
Love for Jesus is not placing Catholic teachings over Christ.