new version of OSAS?

[Ferris Bueller]

May I ask, before you were a new creation in Christ, were you not free to please God?

Tong
R3521

No, I was not free to please God before I was a new creation in Christ.

...without faith it is impossible to please God... Hebrews 11:6​

Even though I sometimes could do righteous things I would always default to my old ways. Now it's the other way around. Even though I sometimes do unrighteous things I always default to my new ways. As long as I keep believing, it will remain that way, the unrighteous things becoming less and less, and the righteous things becoming more and more.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

1 Thessalonians 2:20 For you are our glory and joy.

That is the sense of verse 19. It is different to what reward is spoken in 1 Cor.3:5-16

Tong
R3520

No, it's not different. The reward for the effective and successful labor of planting and watering the field of God, and building the building of God is the crop that grows and the building that is built. The people the co-worker of God ministers to is his reward.....if those people make it through the judgment. That's why the laborer in the field and building of God should be careful how he plants, waters, and builds. You want to do that in such a way so as to receive a reward.......them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And in your take of the passage, what becomes of the people whom you take to be as hay, straw, or wood? In your take, these people suffer fire, because they were taught not the truth, yet those servants who build them to be so, escape to not suffer fire. Sure sounds off a pretty loud alarm.

Tong
R3519

Paul also says in the passage that the worker in the field and building of God who destroys the building of God will himself be destroyed.....

If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him... 1 Corinthians 3:17
​

Not building people up into those who can not pass through the coming fire of judgment because you are lazy, ineffective, or the focus of your gospel is worldly gain, etc. is one thing. But leading people astray with another gospel that can not save is altogether another thing.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<Paul is saying the co-worker of God either raises people up in a genuine salvation that can carry them through the judgment to come, or they don't. >>>

So, I did understand you correctly. That their work raises people up, which people may suffer fire, if they were raised to be as hay, straw, or wood, and while they won’t even if they had raised them as such.

So, yes. A clear misuse then of the passage.

Tong
R3514

You have heard of fake believers before, right? There is no reward for the laborer in the building of God for raising up fake and insincere believers. Some are going to believe your message and heed the warnings of scripture, others are not. The ones who do not will be purged by fire at the judgment. And so they will not be on the other side of the judgment for you to boast over or glory in and be your crown of achievement. I know this chaffs with your theology—the theology the church has taught us—but this is plain scriptural truth that has evaded our teachers and leaders. That's why we need to read the Bible for ourselves and learn it, not learn the prepackaged theologies of men.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Nope.

<<<All he's saying is true disciples follow him. There's nothing there about always and forever holding to Jesus' teachings.>>>

Then you are perhaps reading a different bible. My bible says “if you abide in my words…” That sure denotes remaining and continuing in His words.

Tong
R3513

The really sad part about believing in Osas is you will never be able to see that the verse, and many others, does not have to mean what you see it means. That's why I call Osas a cult. It locks the mind in a preprogrammed mode of understanding that not only rejects other viewpoints, but can't even see them!

True disciples obey Christ's teachings, abiding in them. Fake ones do not. You're adding your Osas bias into the passage and insisting Jesus is saying the true disciple of Christ will ALWAYS AND FOREVER abide in his teachings.

30 As Jesus spoke these things, many believed in Him. So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:30-31​

A true disciple of Christ believes, and then does what he says. That's how you can tell a real believer from a fake one. Real believers retain Christ's words. That's all he's saying. He's not writing Osas doctrine and saying true believers will always believe and will always retain and obey and learn his word. You have added that to the passage.

 

[Corlove13]

There are some who see what we do but not what God does relative to that.

There were Jews and there were Gentiles. The two groups of people are different with regards knowledge of God. Nonetheless, they are unsaved without Christ.

In their fallen state, unconverted that is, how do you suppose they will be saved, if not of the working of God in and on them, that they repent unto God towards faith in Christ Jesus? Yet what many seems to see is what the Gentile or Jew does when they repent and believe in Christ. So that, they take every scriptures that speaks of what one ought to will and do as pertains to salvation, to be the doing of the man, forgetful of the truth about the working of God in and on them so that they will what they will, and do what they do and are saved.

Oh, how some easily forget who they were and how they were saved by God!

Tong
R3526

I like How Dallas thinks when he said:

The familiar words of Jesus are “Without me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). But these must be balanced by the insight that, in general, if we do nothing it will certainly be without him

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, tell us, is God your co-pilot or what?

Tong
R3512

Pilot/ co-pilot is a poor analogy. I think the picture of God as the owner and Captain of a ship and me as the navigator, reading the instruments and obeying the Captains orders, is a better analogy.

 

[Corlove13]

The point is that, that scriptures was not given to all the peoples of the world, but to the covenant people then, the children of Israel that is.

Tong
R3525

Isn't about the mystery ....the Jew and Gentiles all part of the body? That it was not through the seed meaning many...but through the seed, Christ all would be blessed.

Romans 2:28,29
28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

That is what repentance means. So what are you wittering on about?
.

What does “ wittering ” mean? I was asked to explain what I thought about “ repentance”..... I did that . ....excuuuuuuuse me!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

With regards your question, firstly, I looked up the passage of 1Cor.6:20, and it is not what you quoted.

It's Galatians 5:20-21. Sorry for the confusion. Sometimes editing is not complete when I click the reply button, lol.

Secondly, I don’t know of a scale or standard such as you have that tells me one is an ongoing liar or not.

And that's the point. So I'm interested in how you define the difference between the sin of the believer and the sin of the unbeliever....

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​

 

[TheslightestID]

1. “SAVING” repentance is not being sorry for your sins.

Yet, even the dictionary defines it as being sorry for our sin.

Several of those things on your list are simply someone changing definitions. Those who want to believe such changed definitions, will, because it is just what they want to hear, but I have to stick with reality, and won't even argue such things except to say, we can make anything true in our minds that we wish to make true by changing definitions.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What works of the law? What law are you referring to?

James is referring to the works of the law of Moses....

"...do not show favoritism." James 2:1

"...you must not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the rich..." Leviticus 19:15


"...care for orphans and widows in their distress..." James 1:27

"Then the Levite (because he has no portion or inheritance among you), the foreigner, the fatherless, and the widow within your gates may come and eat and be satisfied." Deuteronomy 14:29​

 

[Corlove13]

There are some who see what we do but not what God does relative to that.

There were Jews and there were Gentiles. The two groups of people are different with regards knowledge of God. Nonetheless, they are unsaved without Christ.

In their fallen state, unconverted that is, how do you suppose they will be saved, if not of the working of God in and on them, that they repent unto God towards faith in Christ Jesus? Yet what many seems to see is what the Gentile or Jew does when they repent and believe in Christ. So that, they take every scriptures that speaks of what one ought to will and do as pertains to salvation, to be the doing of the man, forgetful of the truth about the working of God in and on them so that they will what they will, and do what they do and are saved.

Oh, how some easily forget who they were and how they were saved by God!

Tong
R3526

WILLARD: We have been taught that grace means “you can do nothing to be saved.” Such thinking has been extended to “you can do nothing to have spiritual growth.” So spiritual transformation occurs, according to this thinking, in one of two ways – inspiration or information. Inspiration means that in one golden moment, one great experience, you will be transformed. I don’t want to criticize experience. I have had many wonderful experiences with God, but they don’t transform you. The other view, information, is the means whereby you pour truth into your head and suddenly you are transformed. Inspiration isn’t going to do it and information isn’t going to do it. The only way human character is transformed with grace is by discipline and activity.

Do you see yourself Tong according to that thinking?
You should know that spiritual growth is still part of how we are being saved from actual sin..........So we are not just saved[delivered from the Penalty of], we can be delivered from being a thief a liar, adulterer etc....for as a man thinketh so is He.....one is A theif if they would steal if they could get away with it....it's a matter of the heart and transforming it through reliance on Jesus.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So, I ask you in this new thread: what do you believe about the new version of OSAS?

The version that says that if you stop believing, you even continue to be saved?

Seed that is planted in fertile soil and is continually nourished matures and produces fruit.
Other seed is scattered on rocky or shallow soil ... These seeds may start to grow but when the trials and tribulations in life come they wither and die.
So you will find people who claim they believe but their beliefs are shallow, their roots aren't deep, they may get excited from the start, but do not nourish themselves regularly with the Word, aren't receiving good teaching in a Bible based church, therefore, arent growing.
Belief is a heavy word. It is based in knowledge of Christ and real trust that He will deliver on His promises.
It also means that if you believe Christ, you will do what He says. He will demonstrate your belief.
In the beginning of our walk with Him, we may have many misconceptions and doubts and through prayer and growth, these are slowly erased. There are many with weak faith and we are to come alongsude them and give encouragement. I have seen believers who live in fear. Fear to me is the opposite of faith.
We are living in a corrupt world and see evil triumph over good, we see bad things happen to good people. We see death and disease all around us and so we naturally fear, because we walk by sight. If we walk by the Spirit, by faith, knowing that nothing and no one can snatch us out of the Father's hand, fear is diffused. The power of God, His Light removes darkness and shadows.
We also need to mention that on our path, we sometimes get derailed and may go through periods of loss, depression, pain and suffering that lead us to be angry at God, even to temporarily lose faith. We backslide into our old ways. Or something devastating happens, a loss of a loved one, a job, etc.; this may lead us to temporarily lose faith. But God is merciful, He cuddles us along and sends reinforcements, love, comfort, healing and over time, we realize that "God causes all things to work for good, to those who love Him, to those who are called to His purpose."
So what can we say about those who stop believing? They were never true believers from the start or it is just a temporary lapse in their walk. It could last year's and then they come back to Him before death. We don't know unless we are there at the time of their death and they state they don't believe and pass.

 

[Corlove13]

Seed that is planted in fertile soil and is continually nourished matures and produces fruit.
Other seed is scattered on rocky or shallow soil ... These seeds may start to grow but when the trials and tribulations in life come they wither and die.
So you will find people who claim they believe but their beliefs are shallow, their roots aren't deep, they may get excited from the start, but do not nourish themselves regularly with the Word, aren't receiving good teaching in a Bible based church, therefore, arent growing.
Belief is a heavy word. It is based in knowledge of Christ and real trust that He will deliver on His promises.
It also means that if you believe Christ, you will do what He says. He will demonstrate your belief.
In the beginning of our walk with Him, we may have many misconceptions and doubts and through prayer and growth, these are slowly erased. There are many with weak faith and we are to come alongsude them and give encouragement. I have seen believers who live in fear. Fear to me is the opposite of faith.
We are living in a corrupt world and see evil triumph over good, we see bad things happen to good people. We see death and disease all around us and so we naturally fear, because we walk by sight. If we walk by the Spirit, by faith, knowing that nothing and no one can snatch us out of the Father's hand, fear is diffused. The power of God, His Light removes darkness and shadows.
We also need to mention that on our path, we sometimes get derailed and may go through periods of loss, depression, pain and suffering that lead us to be angry at God, even to temporarily lose faith. We backslide into our old ways. Or something devastating happens, a loss of a loved one, a job, etc.; this may lead us to temporarily lose faith. But God is merciful, He cuddles us along and sends reinforcements, love, comfort, healing and over time, we realize that "God causes all things to work for good, to those who love Him, to those who are called to His purpose."
So what can we say about those who stop believing? They were never true believers from the start or it is just a temporary lapse in their walk. It could last year's and then they come back to Him before death. We don't know unless we are there at the time of their death and they state they don't believe and pass.

Hi, nice post

I think that is why 2nd Cor 13:5 states:
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I’d say a misuse of the passage there.

How do you build on the foundation, so that what you build with, may be burned but not you?

Tong
R3509

Christ is the foundation of the building of God. And all the people of God are built on top of him.

...fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. Ephesians 2:19-20

...you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house... 1 Peter 2:5
​

But there is falseness planted and built into the field and building of God, the result of fake and ineffective, or inadequate gospel messages, and ungodly teachings.

...at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace... Matthew 13:40-42
​

Now if any of this falseness in the kingdom that gets burned up at the end of the age is the result of your labor in the field and building of God you yourself may be saved (assuming you weren't actually tearing down the temple of God), but those people you ministered to who were found to be false and not able to withstand fire won't be around to be your crown of reward in the kingdom. You'll be there, but your work, the result of your labor, won't be. Sorry. No crown of joy, glory, and boasting for the labor of the co-worker of God that produced no lasting results. So be careful how you build!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Rethink your thinking

...repentance from dead works... Hebrews 6:1

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Nothing is ever said about “ repenting from or giving up Sin” .

...repentance from dead works... Hebrews 6:1

...turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins... Acts 26:18​

Repenting from sin does not earn salvation, but you do have to do that to be saved. And that doesn't mean be perfect to be saved, either. It means renounce sin and show that change of mind about your sin by not purposely sinning—turn from it. Your success in that decision will come as you grow in your faith in Christ. But, surely, what will end when you repent, if you've repented, is you purposely choosing to sin, because you've changed your mind about that. What we are to purposely do is act in a way that lines up with our repentance from sin...

...they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance. Acts 26:20​

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
May I ask, before you were a new creation in Christ, were you not free to please God?

No, I was not free to please God before I was a new creation in Christ.

...without faith it is impossible to please God... Hebrews 11:6​

Even though I sometimes could do righteous things I would always default to my old ways. Now it's the other way around. Even though I sometimes do unrighteous things I always default to my new ways. As long as I keep believing, it will remain that way, the unrighteous things becoming less and less, and the righteous things becoming more and more.

<<<No, I was not free to please God before I was a new creation in Christ.>>>

Why not? Why do you say you are not free to please God before you were a new creation in Christ?

While you seem to give the impression that you do not please God before you were made a new creation in Christ bu quoting Hebrews 11:6, that is different from the matter of whether you are or you are not free to please God before you were made a new creation in Christ.

Tong
R3527

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The point is that, that scriptures was not given to all the peoples of the world, but to the covenant people then, the children of Israel that is.

Tong
R3525

The people that God brought out of Egypt was a "mixed multitude" Exodus 12:38

The gentiles have always been among God's covenant people. They just had to be circumcised to participate along with native Israelites in the covenant Exodus 12:48-49.