No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[Truth7t7]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no (Pre-Trib Rapture) as dispensationalism falsely teaches, dont be deceived

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Yes!! After the rapture millions of people will have proof and change and become believers but then they must try to stay aliand live under anti-christ rule where most will be hunted down and killed.. Why not wise up now and be counted worthy to escape as Jesus said

 

[marks]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no (Pre-Trib Rapture) as dispensationalism falsely teaches, dont be deceived

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This speaks to those present at the time. Whomever they may be, whether pre-rapture, post-rapture, no difference.

It's not about my mother, for instance, who passed away some years ago. She will not see the great tribulation, nor have to experience it's sufferings and persecutions. Some object, why should one person be exempt? But usually they mean, Why should a pre-trib Christian be exempt?

It's just, whomever happens to be here at the time, and rapture timing is an entirely different issue.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no (Pre-Trib Rapture) as dispensationalism falsely teaches, dont be deceived

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Yes, Pretrib is an invention of Man, who wanted to believe that Christians shouldn't have to suffer in times of God's wrath upon the earth. But throughout history, there have been particularly difficult periods in which God's wrath was poured out on sections of humanity, and Christians always had to endure as witnesses to God's love and grace in those times. There is a reason God doesn't call cowards, and encourages us to be brave, strong, and to stand!

 

[marks]

who wanted to believe that Christians shouldn't have to suffer in times of God's wrath upon the earth.

Only because they wanted to believe this? Not because of reason? Only this intellectual dishonesty? Cowardice?

I'd love for once to see this discussion without this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no (Pre-Trib Rapture) as dispensationalism falsely teaches, dont be deceived

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Will there be an actual distinct nation Israel toward whom God will fulfill His kingdom promises at the end of this age?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Only because they wanted to believe this? Not because of reason? Only this intellectual dishonesty? Cowardice?

I'd love for once to see this discussion without this.

Much love!

These statements do not have to be taken personally, but I can see how you would. There is no easy way to say it, Mark, if you wish to discuss it at all? Try to take the assumed "poison" out of it. And look at the claims again.

God calls us to be bold, and not fear confessing his name. If we put even family ahead of Christ, we are unworthy of him, and he will deny us. Is that poisonous? No--only if you wear the shoes. Only if you're ashamed of Christ.

To fear the terrors of the so-called Tribulation Period is to shrink from faith that God is able to make us stand, to help us in our affliction. Paul was beat down, but not destroyed. You may not be afraid of suffering ridicule for Christ. Then don't wear the shoes!

Those who want to pose a Pretrib position build up the "Tribulation Period" into a holy terror, to scare people so that they're so afraid of this period of time they quickly opt for the Pretrib position. It is an unfair strategy, but that's how it works. Create an image of the "Tribulation Period" as a Hell on earth, replete with heads lopped off, plagues covering the earth, terrible weather conditions, boils, etc. This is designed to prove that the "Tribulation Period" is the "Wrath of God" and not designed to be experienced by Christians.

In reality, we all know, Postrib and Pretrib, that Christians do go through the Tribulation, through the persecutions of Antichrist, and through the plagues of the earth. Who else does the Antichrist persecute but Christians?

I don't at all believe you're being "intellectually dishonest" if you adopt the Pretrib position. No doubt you were taught it or raised up on it. However, these tactics in Pretrib teaching are real, and, I believe, designed to create fear so that you believe in that system.

False systems, by nature, utilize carnal arguments to attract attention. That's why we have all these Pretrib Rapture movies and books--they're pure entertainment, with very little spiritual value. But for what it's worth, there is some Christianity in them, and I therefore indulge in them myself. ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Will there be an actual distinct nation Israel toward whom God will fulfill His kingdom promises at the end of this age?

Much love!

Of course there will--just like there will be many real nations on the earth in the Kingdom age. The OT tends to paint Israel as the exclusive nation of the future, but that's only because at that time only Israel had God's Law. At that time, all nations were pagan, and tended to persecute Israel. So prophecy indicated that in the future Israel would rise up above all of these pagan nations, and stand strong against them.

But in the NT, Christian nations join Israel as many other nations of God. Israel has temporarily fallen on hard times, but will rise again. Even Christian nations are falling, but will, I believe, rise again in the future.

In the future, it is prophesied not that only Israel will be Abraham's nation, but rather, he will become father of *many nations.* It will not be Israel against the rest of the world. Rather, it will be all Christian nations against all pagan nations. And the Christian nations will be the exalted ones.

 

[Truth7t7]

This speaks to those present at the time. Whomever they may be, whether pre-rapture, post-rapture, no difference.

It's not about my mother, for instance, who passed away some years ago. She will not see the great tribulation, nor have to experience it's sufferings and persecutions. Some object, why should one person be exempt? But usually they mean, Why should a pre-trib Christian be exempt?

It's just, whomever happens to be here at the time, and rapture timing is an entirely different issue.

Much love!

The scripture below is speaking to the "Future" church that will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming, 3rd grade reading comprehension

Men's hearts failing for fear of what's coming (Tribulation)

When these things "Begin" the church on earth will be looking up as Jesus Returns

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes!! After the rapture millions of people will have proof and change and become believers but then they must try to stay aliand live under anti-christ rule where most will be hunted down and killed.. Why not wise up now and be counted worthy to escape as Jesus said

There will be no pre-trib raptureasyou claim, the church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming as scripture clearly teaches in the OP

 

[marks]

Of course there will--just like there will be many real nations on the earth in the Kingdom age. The OT tends to paint Israel as the exclusive nation of the future, but that's only because at that time only Israel had God's Law. At that time, all nations were pagan, and tended to persecute Israel. So prophecy indicated that in the future Israel would rise up above all of these pagan nations, and stand strong against them.

But in the NT, Christian nations join Israel as many other nations of God. Israel has temporarily fallen on hard times, but will rise again. Even Christian nations are falling, but will, I believe, rise again in the future.

In the future, it is prophesied not that only Israel will be Abraham's nation, but rather, he will become father of *many nations.* It will not be Israel against the rest of the world. Rather, it will be all Christian nations against all pagan nations. And the Christian nations will be the exalted ones.

My question regards specifically God's promises to Israel, for instance, that He would regather them to their promised land not to be removed from it again. Like that.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

My question regards specifically God's promises to Israel, for instance, that He would regather them to their promised land not to be removed from it again. Like that.

Much love!

That was what I was actually referring to. The Millennial Kingdom consists of many nations on earth, among which there will be many Christian nations, including Israel. For Israel to be part of that, they not only have to survive, as a nation, in this age, but they also have to obtain spiritual renewal in the next age. Then they will adopt a Christian Constitution, and represent a godly nation as they were called to do.

 

[Truth7t7]

Will there be an actual distinct nation Israel toward whom God will fulfill His kingdom promises at the end of this age?

Much love!

I Started A Thread (The Church Is The Israel Of God) Please Respond There, So Not To Derail This Thread

 

[marks]

These statements do not have to be taken personally, but I can see how you would. There is no easy way to say it, Mark, if you wish to discuss it at all? Try to take the assumed "poison" out of it. And look at the claims again.

No. I'm not taking it personally, I'm pointing out that it's a faulty argument.

If you assume I have some emotional need to cling to some escapist doctrine just because you don't understand the validity that I see in it, where will that lead?

And because I know the flaws with the other views, that doesn't mean I think other people intentionally ignore those flaws, wanting to believe what they believe. Perhaps in some cases that may be correct, but I wouldn't assume that of any particular person.

To fear the terrors of the so-called Tribulation Period is to shrink from faith that God is able to make us stand, to help us in our affliction.

So true! Do not fear tribulation, rather, glory in it, knowing what amazing things God will accomplish through it.

Not an argument though. This is still along the lines of, you think this because you are afraid not to. Rubbish!

I don't at all believe you're being "intellectually dishonest" if you adopt the Pretrib position. No doubt you were taught it or raised up on it. However, these tactics in Pretrib teaching are real, and, I believe, designed to create fear so that you believe in that system.

More unfortunate assumptions, I'm afraid!

I happen to hold this view after decades of personal study. And seriously . . . let's just get rid of this whole "fear as a reason" stuff here and now.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That was what I was actually referring to. The Millennial Kingdom consists of many nations on earth, among which there will be many Christian nations, including Israel. For Israel to be part of that, they not only have to survive, as a nation, in this age, but they also have to obtain spiritual renewal in the next age. Then they will adopt a Christian Constitution, and represent a godly nation as they were called to do.

Head of nations? Jesus to rule from Jerusalem? All nations to come worship in Jerusalem? Wait . . . Christian constitution, what is that?

I'm talking about the covenant addressed in the prophets that God will keep with Israel.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I Started A Thread (The Church Is The Israel Of God) Please Respond There, So Not To Derail This Thread

The question pertains to rapture view.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

That was what I was actually referring to. The Millennial Kingdom consists of many nations on earth, among which there will be many Christian nations, including Israel. For Israel to be part of that, they not only have to survive, as a nation, in this age, but they also have to obtain spiritual renewal in the next age. Then they will adopt a Christian Constitution, and represent a godly nation as they were called to do.

The will be no Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a "Fictional" teaching of man

When Jesus Christ returns its (The End) Not the beginning of a Millennial Kingdom on Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[marks]

The scripture below is speaking to the "Future" church that will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming, 3rd grade reading comprehension

Yes, it speaks of those who are there at the time. If some are raptured before that time, they are not included, it still speaks of those who are there at the time. If someone dies before that time, they are not included, it still speaks to those who are there at the time.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The will be no Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a "Fictional" teaching of man

OK, thank you!

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Head of nations? Jesus to rule from Jerusalem? All nations to come worship in Jerusalem? Wait . . . Christian constitution, what is that?

I'm talking about the covenant addressed in the prophets that God will keep with Israel.

Much love!

The covenant "Was Fulfilled" to Abraham, through Jesus Christ the promised "Seed"