tomwebster
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- Dec 11, 2006
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Signs of the Times: The Great Apostasy
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revturmoil
New Member
This is why the Assyrian is likened to Satan.
Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
24 ¶The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
All these events today are still NOT the great apostasy Paul was pointing to, because the 'apostasia' he pointed to specifically involves the false one he said would come to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, exalting himself above ALL that is worshiped or that is called God. That's what the great apostasy is about. That's the "strong delusion" Paul was talking about.
Obviously, that false messiah who will work great signs and wonders on earth to deceive is NOT HERE YET ON EARTH TODAY.
The events of today is what is preparing for that future great apostasy to that coming false messiah.
So all the events and stats of how God is reducing the power of His holy people today per the Book of Daniel is still not about the main event that is yet to come.
Why do folks keep wanting to get away from that point which Paul pointed in 2 Thess.2 about the "strong delusion"?
We hear many preach against it with the idea there is no specific 'the Antichrist' to come. And then we keep hearing folks say believers having stopped going to Church is what that falling away is about, just about everything and anything EXCEPT the coming event of a false messiah that will appear in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, doing miracles and wonders to try and prove it.
Look at how people treated rock idols like The Beatles and Elvis. Look at how people flock to the pope in public appearances. Remember how Hitler commanded great audiences in Nazi Germany. The real great apostasy event by the future false messiah is going to make all those events look like child's play, it will deceive so many into actually believing he is God.
Our Lord Jesus also gave us a hint of how powerful a deception the coming false messiah will cause. He said that if it were possible, it would almost deceive His own elect (Matt.24:24). His elect servants today are not being deceived by others turning away from Him to the things of this world, nor by others stopping attendance at Church. For those reading this, hopefully you'll remember this point when the great falling away to the coming false messiah does occur in our near future.
Two threads on this matter, and so far, it appears I'm the only one that addressed Biblical prophecy about these events our Lord Jesus and His Apostle Paul warned of about the coming dragon-beast pseudo messiah, that is to setup an "image to the beast" (idol) for all the world to bow in worship to (Rev.13:14-15). Too many here are busy doing end-arounds the Scripture instead of addressing that head-on.
revturmoil
New Member
The apostasia of 2 Thes. 2 involves an apostasy that comes first and then the 'revelation" of the man of sin.
The word first means first in place in any succession of things. The passage is clear. The apostasy comes first and then the man of sin is revealed. Nearly every commentary I read say's the same thing. After Paul tells the Thessalonian's about the revelation of the man of sin, he say's, ""And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time." (the apostasy detains him) and verse 7-8...
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The one who 'lets' lawlessness (iniquity) work (the apostasy, rebellion, revolt) does so until the one who lets is taken out of the way....
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
What you're saying is that the apostasy is the strong delusion as well as the worshiping of the man of sin. That's not implied in the passage. Baker's distionary of Theology say's that "the implication is that the apostates will welcome the man of sin". And that's implied in this verse. The 'strong delusion' is a lie that deceives the apostates to accept the man fo sin..
Why does God send them strong delusion? Because the apostates are Muslim's and Islam is anti-christian and supports holy war. The apostates and Islam rebel against God's truth and refuse to get out of Islam. So God just lets them accept the lies of the man of sin.
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
The events go as follows. The apostasy comes, the man of sin is revealed, the apostates believe a lie and accept the man of sin. I think that's clear in the text.
I, as well as many commentators, believe this because it is implied in the passage.
There's no reason to assume the acceptance of signs and wonders are what deceives people to go into apostasy. That's not implied anywhere.
I have no idea what you're talking about!
You disregard the different words for all and how they're used. And like so many others, you don't seem to care. You're going to believe what you want anyway. It's sad that you and many others have fallen for the idea that of a one world government and religion and that the entire world will worship the beast. That not only is so unlikely it's unscriptural.
What makes you think that you're the only one that addressed bible prophecy about these events?
Can you prove to me that the church will have anything to do with this apostasy? I've already asked this several times with no answer. And what in the world is an "end-around?"
II Th 2:3-6
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(KJV)
Can't separate that false working of that false one (in bold) from that "falling away" (apostasia).
Is that false one now sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God? No. Some think it's the pope, but it isn't, because of this...
II Th 2:9-10
9 Even him, whose coming is after (according to per Greek) the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(KJV)
... and this...
2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)
...and this...
2 Cor 11:14
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed (transfigure or disguise per Greek mataschatizo) into an angel of light.
(KJV)
...and this...
Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)
...and this...
Rev 13:11-15
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(KJV)
...and this...
Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)
Rev 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)
...and this...
Rev 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(KJV)
...and this...
Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
(KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(KJV)
Can't separate that false working of that false one (in bold) from that "falling away" (apostasia).
Is that false one now sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God? No. Some think it's the pope, but it isn't, because of this...
II Th 2:9-10
9 Even him, whose coming is after (according to per Greek) the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(KJV)
... and this...
2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)
...and this...
2 Cor 11:14
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed (transfigure or disguise per Greek mataschatizo) into an angel of light.
(KJV)
...and this...
Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)
...and this...
Rev 13:11-15
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(KJV)
...and this...
Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)
Rev 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)
...and this...
Rev 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(KJV)
...and this...
Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
(KJV)
revturmoil
New Member
There you go again. Round and round and round and all over the place with information most of which doesn't apply! It's obvious. You've been put into a corner with no way out! You continually disregard the definition of several words in the Word. You go all over the place trying to prove something that you should be able to prove with the text of 2 Thessalonian's 2! The correct understanding of the word first is crucial. Paul could have chosen another word for first that wouldn't imply "first in any succession of things or persons." But out of 30 different words for first Paul chose the word 'proton' for first which proves it's...
1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons
But as usual...that doesn't matter to you because it debunks your belief!
The amount of Biblical evidence for the coming false messiah causing that future 'apostasia' is truly astounding, once all of God's Word is covered that is.
Understanding that Wicked one of 2 Thess.2 will be Satan himself on earth working miracles and wonders in the sight of men makes it all the more astounding!
Every one of those Scriptures I posted is about that event of Satan coming to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, and causing the majority of the world to bow to him as God, and to his false "image of the beast" he will setup in that future time.
The specific working of that Wicked one coming to sit in the temple of God, showing himself as God, and exalting himself above ALL that is worshipped, or that is CALLED God, is the sin Satan originally did when he first rebelled against God in the beginning...
Ezek 28:2-19
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; "Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, 'I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas'; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, 'I am God?' but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(KJV)
Isa 14:12-21
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
(KJV)
That's another way Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 was revealing the identity of "that Wicked" one that is to come and sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, and exalting himself above all that is worshipped or that is called God. It's about Satan himself coming in our near future to do that working.
Now since I'm doing rounders, my above Bible witness about that ought to be close to a Home Run!!
revturmoil
New Member
You said,
I wish I knew what it is you see in these verses that imply that but I just don't see it. Notice that in Isaiah 14:4 the Assyrian anti-christ is also called "the king of Babylon!"
Isaiah 14:4 ¶That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
The chapter is future for several reasons. One is...
Isaiah 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
In verse 20 the man of sin is said to have destroyed his land.
Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
God 'breaks' the Assyrian anti-christ in Israel.
24 ¶The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
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