Baptismal Regeneration

[GracePeace]

As you said scripture says the Spirit fell upon the gentiles not within them.
The Spirit would not be within them until they were baptised. (in water).

No, Peter explains this was just as the Spirit had fallen on them on Pentecost when they had had cloven tongues of fire over their heads and spoke in other languages glorifying God.

Moreover Cornelius and his household were not just any old gentiles. They were God fearers (vs 2). They kept the Jewish prayer times (vs 3 & 30). They were already acceptable to God(vs 4 & 31). This is fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, quoted by Peter in Acts 2:17, to pour out his Spirit on all flesh - i.e. Jews and Gentiles.
The Spirit was poured out on Jews at Pentecost (Acts 2) and now upon Gentiles (Acts 10).

How is this relevant? The point is there was rebirth and I filling without water baptism.

Cornelius was told to send for Peter and wanted to hear all that God God had commanded Peter (Acts 10:33)
Peter had been commanded to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" (Mk 16:15) which he was doing in Acts 10:34-43. He was also told to baptise "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28:19).

I agree there seem to be many places where Peter is said to be different than the rest of the Apostles,ans their leader--but that isn't the discussion and please try not to make the discussion "Protestantism vs Catholicism".

And Jesus had promised the apostles "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).

That is recognized as an interpolation.

It is in baptism (in water) that the Spirit regenerates us (Titus 3:5) "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit"

Many read that as a washing performed by the power of the Spirit. Obviously it must be done by the Spirit--and again we see in Acts 10 they received the Spirit without water baptism.

 

[GracePeace]

Baptism by water is normative, but there is also baptism by desire (thief of the cross and the Chinese prison scenario) and baptism by blood (martyrdom). Water, desire and blood all have the same essence of baptism. Neither side articulates this very well.

So baptism by blood (martyrdom before water baptism) brings them into Christ like water baptism? Seems like a conflation of the phrase of Jesus "with the baptism with which I am baptized" and the assumption that water baptism brings us into Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

The only "serious problem" with Acts 10 exists only in your mind.

Please do not infer there is a problem with my mind as it is completely uncalled for. Just discuss the material.

The problem is they received the Spirit without water baptism and Peter says this was just as at the first when the Spirit had fallen on them and they also were praising God in other languages.

 

[GracePeace]

If you want to get a good handle on this, kindly study the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It teaches baptismal regeneration. I believe Justin Martyr may have started this ball rolling. They sum it up thus:
1277 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.

LOL I meant I wanted to hear what everyone had to say about it. This isn't about Catholicism (it isn't only Catholics who believe in it).

 

[Mungo]

No, Peter explains this was just as the Spirit had fallen on them on Pentecost when they had had cloven tongues of fire over their heads and spoke in other languages glorifying God.

Exactly. it was the Spirit upon, not the Spirit within.
If you don't understand that please read my post here: The Holy Spirit In Our Lives

How is this relevant? The point is there was rebirth and I filling without water baptism.

It's context. Context is important.

I agree there seem to be many places where Peter is said to be different than the rest of the Apostles,ans their leader--but that isn't the discussion and please try not to make the discussion "Protestantism vs Catholicism".

Anything to do with baptismal regeneration is Catholics vs (some) Protestants.

That is recognized as an interpolation.

No it isn't It part of canonised scripture.

Many read that as a washing performed by the power of the Spirit. Obviously it must be done by the Spirit--and again we see in Acts 10 they received the Spirit without water baptism.

Again the Spirit upon, not the Spirit within.
The Spirit within came with water baptism.

 

[GracePeace]

Exactly. it was the Spirit upon, not the Spirit within.
If you don't understand that please read my post here: The Holy Spirit In Our Lives


It's context. Context is important.


Anything to do with baptismal regeneration is Catholics vs (some) Protestants.


No it isn't It part of canonised scripture.



Again the Spirit upon, not the Spirit within.
The Spirit within came with water baptism.

Doesn't work--Christ said "He is with you and will be in you" and that was what happened on Pentecost. Pentecost is the day the Law was given. The Holy Spirit is the New method of service Romans 6:14. It makes sense the New would take over on the same day as the Old was issued. Now the New says "I will write My Law's on their hearts and minds" so this is again not just something external.

 

[Mungo]

Doesn't work--Christ said "He is with you and will be in you" and that was what happened on Pentecost. Pentecost is the day the Law was given. The Holy Spirit is the New method of service Romans 6:14. It makes sense the New would take over on the same day as the Old was issued. Now the New says "I will write My Law's on their hearts and minds" so this is again not just something external.

Where did Christ say "He is with you and will be in you"?

"The Holy Spirit is the New method of service Romans 6:14." Please explain what you mean by that.

Now the New says "I will write My Law's on their hearts and minds" so this is again not just something external.
1. Please can you give references when you quote what scripture says.
2. I didn't say everything is external. It is in Baptism (with water) that we get the Spirit within.

 

[GracePeace]

Where did Christ say "He is with you and will be in you"?

John's Gospel. Shocking you don't know that.

"The Holy Spirit is the New method of service Romans 6:14." Please explain what you mean by that.

The Old way was the Law, the New way is the Spirit writing the laws of God on our minds and hearts Jeremiah 31:31-34 Romans 2:14-15 Romans 2:26-27.

Now the New says "I will write My Law's on their hearts and minds" so this is again not just something external.
1. Please can you give references when you quote what scripture says.
2. I didn't say everything is external. It is in Baptism (with water) that we get the Spirit within.

1. Above given.
2. The Apostles received the Spirit on Pentecost, the same day as it is traditionally accepted that the Law had been given. The significance is that Peter says the Gentiles received the gift of the Spirit in the same way as they had on Pentecost--that was what Christ said "you will be imbued with power and will be My witnesses". And so it is that the Gentiles were bearing witness to the mighty acts of God speaking in other languages just as they had in Pentecost. That's not external that's internal "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".

 

[Mungo]

John's Gospel. Shocking you don't know that.

What is the reference?Just saying John's gospel is not a reference.
Why is it so hard to drag references out of people?

The Old way was the Law, the New way is the Spirit writing the laws of God on our minds and hearts Jeremiah 31:31-34 Romans 2:14-15 Romans 2:26-27.

Jeremiah is talking about a New Covenant.

How do you enter the New Covenant? Answer - by baptism.
“In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)
This clearly links a “spiritual circumcision” with baptism, a link from baptism to the covenant, not through physical circumcision (as in the Old Covenant) but a spiritual one.

This is why we must be “born from above” (John 3:5). Jews were born into the Old Covenant. When we are born from above we are born into the New Covenant.

I don't see that Rom 2:14-15 & 2:26-27 are relevant to this.

1. Above given.
2. The Apostles received the Spirit on Pentecost, the same day as it is traditionally accepted that the Law had been given. The significance is that Peter says the Gentiles received the gift of the Spirit in the same way as they had on Pentecost--that was what Christ said "you will be imbued with power and will be My witnesses". And so it is that the Gentiles were bearing witness to the mighty acts of God speaking in other languages just as they had in Pentecost. That's not external that's internal "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".

The apostles received the Spirit within before Pentecost.
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20:21-23)

 

[GracePeace]

What is the reference?Just saying John's gospel is not a reference.
Why is it so hard to drag references out of people?

1. John 14:17
2. It really is difficult to drag references when I'm on my phone--if the verse is well known I would hope that I would not have to do the extra work. Really it is a big deal. Very troublesome.

Jeremiah is talking about a New Covenant.

How do you enter the New Covenant? Answer - by baptism.
“In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)
This clearly links a “spiritual circumcision” with baptism, a link from baptism to the covenant, not through physical circumcision (as in the Old Covenant) but a spiritual one.

1. This is an error called "begging the question".
2. The point was Jeremiah 31 shows the Spirit does internal work--that was internal work on Pentecost and so it was when the Gentiles received the Spirit in Acts 10.

This is why we must be “born from above” (John 3:5). Jews were born into the Old Covenant. When we are born from above we are born into the New Covenant.

It's not about Jews only since Gentiles also need new birth.

I don't see that Rom 2:14-15 & 2:26-27 are relevant to this.

You haven't read carefully--they're relevant because they show the internal work of the Spirit by which believing Gentiles have the Law written on their hearts and do good deeds that glorify God.

The apostles received the Spirit within before Pentecost.
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20:21-23)

I don't know how to reconcile that with Acts, but Jesus says in Acts that they have to WAIT UNTIL Pentecost.
Maybe that verse in John 20:21-23 is his version of Pentecost.

 

[Mungo]

1. John 14:17
2. It really is difficult to drag references when I'm on my phone--if the verse is well known I would hope that I would not have to do the extra work. Really it is a big deal. Very troublesome.

It may be tedious but sometimes translations differ significantly and a quote is difficult to recognise. Some people's quotes are sometimes crude paraphrases rather than real quotes.

1. This is an error called "begging the question".
2. The point was Jeremiah 31 shows the Spirit does internal work--that was internal work on Pentecost and so it was when the Gentiles received the Spirit in Acts 10.

The Spirit does both internal and external work, the Spirit within and the Spirit upon. In the example of Pentecost and Cornelius in Acts 10 it was clearly the Spirit upon "The Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word." (vs 45).

And Pentecost "And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them."

It's not about Jews only since Gentiles also need new birth.

I didn't say it was Jews only.

You haven't read carefully--they're relevant because they show the internal work of the Spirit by which believing Gentiles have the Law written on their hearts and do good deeds that glorify God.

Romans 2:14-15 & 2:26-27 are about existing and past gentiles. Pagans know the laws of God from their conscience. Pagans didn't have to wait to be baptised into the New Covenant to know that (for example) murder was wrong. Cain knew it from the beginning (Gen 4:8-16) as did Lamech (Gen 4:23-24).

Also read Rom 1:19-23

I don't know how to reconcile that with Acts, but Jesus says in Acts that they have to WAIT UNTIL Pentecost.

They had to wait until Pentecost for the outpouring of the Spirit upon - external.

I explained this in the link I gave you in post #25

The external work corresponds to the charismatic gifts of the Spirit which are given for work of ministry (e.g. 1Cor 12:1-11). This is what they needed at Pentecost.

The internal work corresponds to the sanctifying gifts of the Spirit, as well as practical gifts (e.g. Gal 5:22-23).

Maybe that verse in John 20:21-23 is his version of Pentecost.

No it wasn't John's version of Pentecost.
Jesus had not ascended to the Father than.
And it was the apostles in both cases. Why would Jesus tell them to wait if he had already dome it?

 

[GracePeace]

It may be tedious but sometimes translations differ significantly and a quote is difficult to recognise. Some people's quotes are sometimes crude paraphrases rather than real quotes.

You asked why I didn't want to cite it. I told you why.

The Spirit does both internal and external work, the Spirit within and the Spirit upon. In the example of Pentecost and Cornelius in Acts 10 it was clearly the Spirit upon "The Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word." (vs 45).

And Pentecost "And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them."

Yes, in order to get inside of them it does have to get on them. This was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh and that men would prophesy--that is an internal work as referred to in 1 Corinthians 14.

I didn't say it was Jews only.

I thought that was what you were inferring--that because they thought they'd get in just for being Jewish they had to be told "no you have to be born again".

Romans 2:14-15 & 2:26-27 are about existing and past gentiles.

Nope, it's about believing Gentiles on whose hearts the Spirit writes God's Law--they are "circumcised in the heart by the Spirit" Romans 2:29.

Pagans know the laws of God from their conscience. Pagans didn't have to wait to be baptised into the New Covenant to know that (for example) murder was wrong. Cain knew it from the beginning (Gen 4:8-16) as did Lamech (Gen 4:23-24).

Having the Law of God written on the heart is a promise of the New Covenant--and they are "circumcised in the heart by the Spirit" Romans 2:29.

Also read Rom 1:19-23

That's not having God's Law written on the heart by the Spirit, as the Spirit writing the Law on the heart is the New Covenant.

They had to wait until Pentecost for the outpouring of the Spirit upon - external.

"He is with you and will be in you."

I explained this in the link I gave you in post #25

I am not following links. Please bring the information here.

The external work corresponds to the charismatic gifts of the Spirit which are given for work of ministry (e.g. 1Cor 12:1-11). This is what they needed at Pentecost.

I reject the idea that gifts of the Spirit are external. A word of prophecy for instance is knowing (in your mind and heart) what others are thinking. Is my brain or my heart OUTSIDE of me? No.

The internal work corresponds to the sanctifying gifts of the Spirit, as well as practical gifts (e.g. Gal 5:22-23).

Pentecost fulfilled Joel's prophecy about the Spirit of God being poured out on all flesh--then that happened to the Gentiles "in the same manner". The Gentiles were born again by faith alone and received the Spirit to certify they were born of God.
No it wasn't John's version of Pentecost.

Jesus had not ascended to the Father than.
And it was the apostles in both cases. Why would Jesus tell them to wait if he had already dome it?

Good point.
How do you reconcile the two events?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

did we figure out if we wanted to talk about water regeneration or spirit regeneration?

 

[Mungo]

You asked why I didn't want to cite it. I told you why.

I was just explaining why I was pushing for it.

Yes, in order to get inside of them it does have to get on them. This was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh and that men would prophesy--that is an internal work as referred to in 1 Corinthians 14.

1Cor 14 is referring to the charismatic gifts that the apostles received at Pentecost and Cornelius in Acts 10:44.

This is different from the sanctifying gifts that we receive at Baptism (in water).

Nope, it's about believing Gentiles on whose hearts the Spirit writes God's Law--they are "circumcised in the heart by the Spirit" Romans 2:29.

Circumcision of the heart happens in Baptism. Paul is not referring to baptised gentiles.

Having the Law of God written on the heart is a promise of the New Covenant--and they are "circumcised in the heart by the Spirit" Romans 2:29.

Circumcision of the heart happens in Baptism.

I am not following links. Please bring the information here.

OK. I will repost the whole lot in my next post and I think that will answer the rest of your post.

 

[Mungo]

@GracePeace
In their book Receiving The Power, Zeb Bradford Long and Douglas McMurray, two Presbyterian Charismatics, maintain there are two distinctive ways in which the Holy Spirit acts and these are often confused, not the least because the same phrases are used in scripture regarding them. These two ways are referred to by Long & McMurray as ‘the Spirit upon’ and ‘the Spirit within’. Actual quotations from the book are in blue.

There are two major motifs in scripture…that reflect two different operations of the Holy Spirit. One motif has the Spirit coming “upon” people for power in ministry. A second has the Spirit coming “within” people for salvation and to develop in them skill, wisdom, godly character and maturity in faith and love. Both motifs are equally important and equally biblical.

Thus there is an external and internal work of the Spirit. This is true both for the Old Testament and the New. Correspondingly there are two ways of being filled with the Holy Spirit (or full of the Holy Spirit). There are also two ways of receiving the Holy Spirit and two 'baptisms', but I will come to those later as to go into them now would make this post too long.

The external work corresponds to the charismatic gifts of the Spirit which are given for work of ministry (e.g. 1Cor 12:1-11).

The internal work corresponds to the sanctifying gifts of the Spirit, as well as practical gifts (e.g. Gal 5:22-23).

Long & McMurray use the imagery of a tree where, in the external work, the Spirit gives gifts like those on a Christmas tree, which can be added or removed. They are given for ministry and for the building up of the Church. The internal work is more like the sap permeating the tree giving it life and producing fruit that comes from within. Thus the internal work helps us grow in holiness and spiritual fruitfulness.

It is important that these two workings are kept in balance.
As bitter experience has shown, the “Spirit upon” for gifts and power may occur to great effect, but if there is no parallel growth in the inward work of the Spirit, there can follow a loss of power leading to disaster…. Many a large church or impressive evangelistic ministry has been swept away because the preacher or evangelist neglected the inward work of the Holy Spirit becoming proud and unaccountable…

An opposite but equally tragic situation afflicts the Church when there is an inward work of the Holy Spirit but rejection of the outward work. In this case a believer may pursue moral living, altruistic works, concise exposition of the Word and genuine Christian fellowship but demonstrate no spiritual power to set people free from bondage or fulfil the task of evangelism and making disciples…..

This half-full Christianity is as scandalous as the other. The world scorns a powerless church as much as it scorns an immoral one…… Surely the answer to both dilemmas is that we open our lives to both kinds of infilling, to the work of “the Spirit upon” and “the Spirit within”.

Filled with the Holy Spirit
The second expression the Bible uses, filled with the Holy Spirit, is more complicated but it too can be understood in the context of the inner and outer work of the Spirit.

When the New Testament speaks of people being “filled with” or “full of” the Holy Spirit, the Greek word reveals one of two concepts. English translations…. Use the same words for both Greek concepts and do not reflect the difference. One Greek term, pleitho, is used consistently for the outer work of the Holy Spirit and usually refers to a brief temporary filling. Another Greek word pleiroo (or its cognate pleires) is used consistently for the inner work of the Holy Spirit and usually refers to something that gets fuller and fuller until it is saturated. This refers to a state of being.

The distinction between pleitho and plieroo is more or less consistent, whether they speak of being filled with the Holy Spirit or anything else.

“Filled” for Action
The filling referred to by the word pleitho is temporary and followed immediately by action. It corresponds to upon or fell upon.

Examples of pleitho – temporary, for action
“And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying….” (Lk 1:67)
“Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them……” (Acts 4:8)
“But Saul, who is also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said,….” (Acts 13:9-10).

This kind of filling happens again and again, just as a sponge may be refilled many times…..The disciples were not filled only once on Pentecost, but many times thereafter…..The presence of the Holy Spirit is constant, but the expression of the power is episodic. (my emboldening)

I think this usage is what might be called an anointing.

“Filled” as a State of Being
The other Greek word for being filled with the Holy Spirit, pleiroo (or its alternative pleires), describes something becoming fuller and fuller. The filling does not happen at distinct times, but is a slow progressive saturation, like yeast permeating a dough, and describes a state of being. Usually there is no reference to dynamic action.

Examples of pleiroo/pleires – state of being
“And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil.” (Lk1-2)
“Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom …” (Acts 6:3)
“[F]or he [Barnabus] was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith…” (Acts 11:24)

Summary
We can summarise these findings simply. God wants us to be filled with the Holy Spirit in two distinct senses of the word. He wants us, on the one hand, to be open to all the inner workings of the Spirit in our character, preparing us for eternity and yielding the fruit of the Spirit, especially love. On the other hand, He wants us to be open occasions when we can minister in His power through the gifts of the Spirit.

In the first instance, we “have” the Holy Spirit. He is described as being “in” us to change our character. Christian character arises from the slow, percolating work of the Holy Spirit…

In the second instance, the Holy Spirit “has” us. He chooses to use us in a moment to accomplish a ministry by His power. At no time does the Bible indicate that you or I can “have” the power of God in the same way a New Ager tries to get spiritual power to use for good or evil. This kind of power for service comes and goes….

 

[Mungo]

@GracePeace
I was going to post about two baptism's in the other thread but never did.
Here is it because I think it is relevant. It has a Catholic slant but I'm not going to try and edit that out.


Two Baptisms
There are two baptisms of particular concern to the Christian, namely Sacramental Baptism (‘water baptism’) and Baptism in (or with) the Holy Spirit (‘spirit baptism’).

[Here I wish to note that I strongly dislike the term ‘Baptism In the Holy Spirit’. It is a term that Catholic Charismatic Renewal has imported from Pentecostalism and sits uneasily with the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation.]

Long & McMurray recognise the potential for confusion (although as Presbyterians they do not accept the sacrament of confirmation).

..why is the term baptism used? Doesn’t this create confusion and entangle us in debates about the sacrament of water baptism?

We use the word baptism to signify an initiation. Just as the water baptism is the initiation into Christ, Holy Spirit baptism is the initiation into the power of the Spirit. Because it is a beginning we do not speak of being “baptised with the Holy Spirit” every time God uses us in some new manifestation of the Spirit. Baptism with the Spirit refers to the first time we sought the Lord and he answered our prayer with power. It is a gateway into power ministry

Actually that is a useful way of looking at the sacrament of Confirmation (as one of the sacraments of Initiation) and they do believe in it - but just refuse to call it a sacrament!!!

Thus in Sacramental Baptism we receive “the Spirit within” to equip us for a holy life, and in Confirmation we receive “the Spirit upon” to empower us for ministry and evangelisation.

Thomas Aquinas makes this distinction:
“… Baptism is a spiritual regeneration unto Christian life, so also is Confirmation a certain spiritual growth bringing man to perfect spiritual age. But it is evident, from a comparison with the life of the body, that the action which is proper to man immediately after birth, is different from the action which is proper to him when he has come to perfect age. And therefore by the sacrament of Confirmation man is given a spiritual power in respect of sacred actions other than those in respect of which he receives power in Baptism. For in Baptism he receives power to do those things which pertain to his own salvation, forasmuch as he lives to himself: whereas in Confirmation he receives power to do those things which pertain to the spiritual combat with the enemies of the Faith. This is evident from the example of the apostles, who, before they received the fullness of the Holy Ghost, were in the "upper room . . . persevering . . . in prayer" (Acts 1:13-14); whereas afterwards they went out and feared not to confess their faith in public, even in the face of the enemies of the Christian Faith. (Tertia Pars, 72:5)
(my emboldening)

 

[GracePeace]

I was just explaining why I was pushing for it.

All right.

1Cor 14 is referring to the charismatic gifts that the apostles received at Pentecost and Cornelius in Acts 10:44.

This is different from the sanctifying gifts that we receive at Baptism (in water).

Yeah, I don't see that. That was the Spirit being poured out on all flesh--as Christ said "the one who believes out of his belly will flow rivers of living water (this He spoke of the Spirit)" so they had rivers of living water flowing from their inner beings.

Circumcision of the heart happens in Baptism. Paul is not referring to baptised gentiles.

Paul is referring to believing Gentiles who have had the heart circumcised by the Spirit.
Sorry you can't accept God's Word because you adhere to an anti-Scriptural tradition.

Circumcision of the heart happens in Baptism.

Irrelevant. The point is we're discussing saved Gentiles not unsaved Gentiles in Romans 2.

OK. I will repost the whole lot in my next post and I think that will answer the rest of your post.

I will see if there is anything relevant in it.

 

[GracePeace]

@GracePeace
I was going to post about two baptism's in the other thread but never did.
Here is it because I think it is relevant. It has a Catholic slant but I'm not going to try and edit that out.


Two Baptisms
There are two baptisms of particular concern to the Christian, namely Sacramental Baptism (‘water baptism’) and Baptism in (or with) the Holy Spirit (‘spirit baptism’).

[Here I wish to note that I strongly dislike the term ‘Baptism In the Holy Spirit’. It is a term that Catholic Charismatic Renewal has imported from Pentecostalism and sits uneasily with the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation.]

Long & McMurray recognise the potential for confusion (although as Presbyterians they do not accept the sacrament of confirmation).

..why is the term baptism used? Doesn’t this create confusion and entangle us in debates about the sacrament of water baptism?

We use the word baptism to signify an initiation. Just as the water baptism is the initiation into Christ, Holy Spirit baptism is the initiation into the power of the Spirit. Because it is a beginning we do not speak of being “baptised with the Holy Spirit” every time God uses us in some new manifestation of the Spirit. Baptism with the Spirit refers to the first time we sought the Lord and he answered our prayer with power. It is a gateway into power ministry

Actually that is a useful way of looking at the sacrament of Confirmation (as one of the sacraments of Initiation) and they do believe in it - but just refuse to call it a sacrament!!!

Thus in Sacramental Baptism we receive “the Spirit within” to equip us for a holy life, and in Confirmation we receive “the Spirit upon” to empower us for ministry and evangelisation.

Thomas Aquinas makes this distinction:
“… Baptism is a spiritual regeneration unto Christian life, so also is Confirmation a certain spiritual growth bringing man to perfect spiritual age. But it is evident, from a comparison with the life of the body, that the action which is proper to man immediately after birth, is different from the action which is proper to him when he has come to perfect age. And therefore by the sacrament of Confirmation man is given a spiritual power in respect of sacred actions other than those in respect of which he receives power in Baptism. For in Baptism he receives power to do those things which pertain to his own salvation, forasmuch as he lives to himself: whereas in Confirmation he receives power to do those things which pertain to the spiritual combat with the enemies of the Faith. This is evident from the example of the apostles, who, before they received the fullness of the Holy Ghost, were in the "upper room . . . persevering . . . in prayer" (Acts 1:13-14); whereas afterwards they went out and feared not to confess their faith in public, even in the face of the enemies of the Christian Faith. (Tertia Pars, 72:5)
(my emboldening)

I see you have posted some Catholic stuff here--which to me is irrelevant.

 

[GracePeace]

@GracePeace
In their book Receiving The Power, Zeb Bradford Long and Douglas McMurray, two Presbyterian Charismatics, maintain there are two distinctive ways in which the Holy Spirit acts and these are often confused, not the least because the same phrases are used in scripture regarding them. These two ways are referred to by Long & McMurray as ‘the Spirit upon’ and ‘the Spirit within’. Actual quotations from the book are in blue.

There are two major motifs in scripture…that reflect two different operations of the Holy Spirit. One motif has the Spirit coming “upon” people for power in ministry. A second has the Spirit coming “within” people for salvation and to develop in them skill, wisdom, godly character and maturity in faith and love. Both motifs are equally important and equally biblical.

Thus there is an external and internal work of the Spirit. This is true both for the Old Testament and the New. Correspondingly there are two ways of being filled with the Holy Spirit (or full of the Holy Spirit). There are also two ways of receiving the Holy Spirit and two 'baptisms', but I will come to those later as to go into them now would make this post too long.

The external work corresponds to the charismatic gifts of the Spirit which are given for work of ministry (e.g. 1Cor 12:1-11).

The internal work corresponds to the sanctifying gifts of the Spirit, as well as practical gifts (e.g. Gal 5:22-23).

Long & McMurray use the imagery of a tree where, in the external work, the Spirit gives gifts like those on a Christmas tree, which can be added or removed. They are given for ministry and for the building up of the Church. The internal work is more like the sap permeating the tree giving it life and producing fruit that comes from within. Thus the internal work helps us grow in holiness and spiritual fruitfulness.

It is important that these two workings are kept in balance.
As bitter experience has shown, the “Spirit upon” for gifts and power may occur to great effect, but if there is no parallel growth in the inward work of the Spirit, there can follow a loss of power leading to disaster…. Many a large church or impressive evangelistic ministry has been swept away because the preacher or evangelist neglected the inward work of the Holy Spirit becoming proud and unaccountable…

An opposite but equally tragic situation afflicts the Church when there is an inward work of the Holy Spirit but rejection of the outward work. In this case a believer may pursue moral living, altruistic works, concise exposition of the Word and genuine Christian fellowship but demonstrate no spiritual power to set people free from bondage or fulfil the task of evangelism and making disciples…..

This half-full Christianity is as scandalous as the other. The world scorns a powerless church as much as it scorns an immoral one…… Surely the answer to both dilemmas is that we open our lives to both kinds of infilling, to the work of “the Spirit upon” and “the Spirit within”.

Filled with the Holy Spirit
The second expression the Bible uses, filled with the Holy Spirit, is more complicated but it too can be understood in the context of the inner and outer work of the Spirit.

When the New Testament speaks of people being “filled with” or “full of” the Holy Spirit, the Greek word reveals one of two concepts. English translations…. Use the same words for both Greek concepts and do not reflect the difference. One Greek term, pleitho, is used consistently for the outer work of the Holy Spirit and usually refers to a brief temporary filling. Another Greek word pleiroo (or its cognate pleires) is used consistently for the inner work of the Holy Spirit and usually refers to something that gets fuller and fuller until it is saturated. This refers to a state of being.

The distinction between pleitho and plieroo is more or less consistent, whether they speak of being filled with the Holy Spirit or anything else.

“Filled” for Action
The filling referred to by the word pleitho is temporary and followed immediately by action. It corresponds to upon or fell upon.

Examples of pleitho – temporary, for action
“And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying….” (Lk 1:67)
“Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them……” (Acts 4:8)
“But Saul, who is also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said,….” (Acts 13:9-10).

This kind of filling happens again and again, just as a sponge may be refilled many times…..The disciples were not filled only once on Pentecost, but many times thereafter…..The presence of the Holy Spirit is constant, but the expression of the power is episodic. (my emboldening)

I think this usage is what might be called an anointing.

“Filled” as a State of Being
The other Greek word for being filled with the Holy Spirit, pleiroo (or its alternative pleires), describes something becoming fuller and fuller. The filling does not happen at distinct times, but is a slow progressive saturation, like yeast permeating a dough, and describes a state of being. Usually there is no reference to dynamic action.

Examples of pleiroo/pleires – state of being
“And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil.” (Lk1-2)
“Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom …” (Acts 6:3)
“[F]or he [Barnabus] was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith…” (Acts 11:24)

Summary
We can summarise these findings simply. God wants us to be filled with the Holy Spirit in two distinct senses of the word. He wants us, on the one hand, to be open to all the inner workings of the Spirit in our character, preparing us for eternity and yielding the fruit of the Spirit, especially love. On the other hand, He wants us to be open occasions when we can minister in His power through the gifts of the Spirit.

In the first instance, we “have” the Holy Spirit. He is described as being “in” us to change our character. Christian character arises from the slow, percolating work of the Holy Spirit…

In the second instance, the Holy Spirit “has” us. He chooses to use us in a moment to accomplish a ministry by His power. At no time does the Bible indicate that you or I can “have” the power of God in the same way a New Ager tries to get spiritual power to use for good or evil. This kind of power for service comes and goes….

1. You should know that merely citing Protestants is meaningless to a Protestant--you yourselves love to criticize Protestantism as having tens of thousands of denominations.
2. "The one who believes out of his inner being will flow rivers of living water"--the Gentiles in Acts 10 believed and so had these rivers of living water flowing from their inner beings.

 

[Mungo]

1. You should know that merely citing Protestants is meaningless to a Protestant--you yourselves love to criticize Protestantism as having tens of thousands of denominations.
2. "The one who believes out of his inner being will flow rivers of living water"--the Gentiles in Acts 10 believed and so had these rivers of living water flowing from their inner beings.

As you are unwilling to engage with my posts I will leave this except to give you a summary of my understanding on this.

Baptism (in water) is the normal way that Jesus has given us for entry into the New Covenant and salvation (Mk 16:16, 1Pet 3:21). We are brought into the Church, the body of Christ (1Cor 12:12- 13, Eph 4:4-5) and become children of God (Gal 3:26-27).

In baptism our sins are forgiven (Acts 2:38, 22:16, Col 2:11-13 & more).

In baptism we are "born again /from above (John 3:5) ; the Holy Spirit renews us (Ti 3:5, Rom 6:3-4) and dwells within us. (1Cor 6:19)

This renewal was also foreshadowed in the OT
So Naaman went down and plunged into the Jordan seven times at the word of the man of God. His flesh became again like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. (2Kg 5:14)

This indwelling was prophesied by Ezekial
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you…. (Ez 36:25-27)

Baptism is the initiation into the Christian life..

In the so called "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" the Holy Spirit comes upon us and we are empowered (clothed with power - Lk 24:49) with gifts, not for us but for the upbuilding of the Church (1Cor 12:1-11, Eph 1-16). The Holy Spirit falls upon us either at God's instigation (Acts 2:2-4, 10:44) or by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:18-19, 19:6)

In Eph 4: 12-14 Paul says these gifts are given "to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children….."

If baptism is the initiation into the Christian life, the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" helps us to be no longer children but mature Christians, God's fellow workers (1Cor 3:9).

God bless