Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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grumix8

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We have made great analysis about freewill and the human consciousness part in how our actions decide your path. Freewill existed before creation and when Adam made mistake it also freewill, we have all learn but the most important we use it in our life for love and do good like G-d wants. Post let me find you that understanding Doug batchelor spoke about it and will find more information so you can understand the situation you find you can't understand.
 
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Kermos

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When was creation subject to frustration?
"We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

Not always.
Everything was created ," very good", in the beginning. It was subjected to frustration after the fall of Man. If you can't get even the most basic biblical tenets of Christianity correct, why would we listen to your theological ramblings?

You are contradicting the Apostle Paul who wrote all time prior to the present with "until now" (Romans 8:20-22) or usung what you submitted - prior to "right up to the present time" which means all God created was "very good" (Genesis 1:31) for the creation fits into God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (see the original post).

Back to you contradicting Paul with your writing of "Not always" directly subtracting "until now" (Romans 8:22).

That "until now" (Romans 8:22) includes "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22).

That "whole creation" (Romans 8:20-22) includes Adam.

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

"Not willingly" (Romans 8:20) for Adam by Paul indicates "not choice" for the recorded words in (Genesis 3:6).

"Not willingly" (Romans 8:20) for Adam by Paul indicates "not freewill" for the recorded words in (Genesis 3:6).
 

Kermos

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The amplified bible goes into the Hebrew in much more depth, to give a fuller understanding.
Your version of what it says doesn’t agree with the Amplified Bible:

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely (unconditionally) eat [the fruit] from every tree of the garden; 17 but [only] from the tree of the knowledge (recognition) of good and evil you shall not eat, otherwise on the day that you eat from it, you shall most certainly die [because of your disobedience].”

In reality, the word "freely" does not appear in the Hebrew of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage. The Hebrew source word for "freely" is truly "to eat" in English for Genesis 2:16.

Also, the word "may" does not appear in the Hebrew of the passage. The Hebrew source word for "may" is truly "you will be eating" in English for Genesis 2:16.

The word "surely" can surely lead to misinterpretation of the passage since the Hebrew source word for "surely" is truly "to die" in English for Genesis 2:17.

First, we need to look at the passage, so here is Genesis 2:16 from three different angles: New American Standard Bible, Hebrew Bible, and Interlinear.

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may freely eat;" (Genesis 2:16, NASB)
ויצו יהוה אלהים על האדם לאמר מכל עץ הגן אכל תאכל
(Genesis 2:16, Hebrew Bible, historians say accent marks for vowels did not appear in early Hebrew script)

and-commanded YHVH God unto the-man saying of-every tree of-the-garden to-eat you-eating (Genesis 2:16, Interlinear word(s) for word(s) translation of English from Hebrew)

Now, here is Genesis 2:17 from three different angles of NASB, Hebrew Bible, and Interlinear."but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:17, NASB)
ומעץ הדעת טוב ורע לא תאכל ממנו כי ביום אכלך ממנו מות תמות
(Genesis 2:17, Hebrew Bible, historians say accent marks for vowels did not appear in early Hebrew script)

but-of-the-tree of-the-knowledge of-good and-evil not you-eating from when in-the-day you-to-eat of-it to-die you-dying (Genesis 2:17, Interlinear word(s) for word(s) translation of English from Hebrew)

Second, we need to look at the lexical construction.
The final two words of both verses follow similar patterns. The final two words are verbs. The final two words have the same root word. The first word is the Qal (Strong's 7031 - light, swift, fleet) infinitive absolute verb form (to be). The second word is the qal (Strong's 7031 - light, swift, fleet) imperfect second person masculine singular verb form (incomplete action thus present tense applies and past tense can be included and future tense can apply).

In Hebrew grammar, the qal is the simple paradigm and simplest stem formation of the verb.

The word roots are easily distinguishable when carefully examined.

Here are the final two Hebrew words of Genesis 2:16, אכל תאכל, notice the consistent word root. Both of these words are Strong's 398 - eat.

Here are the final two Hebrew words of Genesis 2:17, מות תמות, notice the consistent word root. Both of these words are Strong's 4191 - die.

The sixth word of Genesis 2:17 is תאכל which is precisely the same word that appears as the second of the two last words at the end of the Genesis 2:16, so we have a point of reference for this word.

Notice that the Hebrew word אכל (Strong's 398 - eat) in Genesis 2:16 is not the Hebrew word חפשי (Strong's 2670 - free).

Third, it is prudent to mention that the Masoretes added the vowel accents into the Hebrew written manuscripts. The Masoretes were a sect of Jews that lived after Jesus ascended to heaven. We have earlier copies of Hebrew manuscripts that contain consonants only, so the Hebrew consonant only script is what I use here in this essay. I use the consonant only script because it more closely represents the original Hebrew writing.

Fourth, it's time to apply proper translation.

In Genesis 2:16, the final two words "אכל תאכל" (to-eat you-eating) are of significant relevance to this topic since both of these words are of the root "eat".

The first of the two words "אכל" (Strongs 398 - eat) is the infinitive verb form thus it translates to English as "to-eat"; however, some English translations use the word "freely", yet "freely" is an inappropriate translation of "eat" because the word is not the Hebrew word for "free" while it is the Hebrew word for "eat".

The second of the two words "תאכל" (Strongs 398 - eat) is the imperfect verb form thus it translates to English as "you-eating".

These two words essentially result in the first part of the command being "of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating" thus liberty of action without punishment is expressed. Also, instead of the permissive of "may" as part of the "eat" verb, it is appropriate for "will" to be part of the "eat" verb; in other words, "may eat" is the wrong translation., and "will eat" is the correct translation.

In Genesis 2:17, the final two words "מות תמות" (to-die you-dying) are of significant relevance to this topic since both of these words are of the root "die".

The first of the two words "מות" (Strongs 4191 - die) is the infinitive verb form thus it translates to English as "to-die"; however, some English translations use the word "surely", yet "surely" is an inappropriate translation of "die".

The second of the two words "תמות" (Strongs 4191 - die) is the imperfect verb form thus it translates to English as "you-dying".

These two words essentially cause the end of the command to say "day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying" thus the punishment is expressed.

Fifth, conclusions based on the above.

Since some people say proper translation of "to eat" and "to die" depend on the Hebrew language construct, so then there should be no problem switching "freely" to "surely" in Genesis 2:16; furthermore, there should be no problem switching "surely" to "freely" in Genesis 2:17; however, switching or keeping "freely" and/or "surely" causes confusion, yet God is not of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

After all, "to-eat" followed by "you-will-be-eating" and "to-die" followed by "you-will-be-dying" have the same language construct of "qal infinitive absolute verb form" (to eat/to die) followed by "qal imperfect second person masculine singular verb form" (you-will-be-eating/you-will-be-dying).

The current English translation of "to eat" to "freely" is arbitrary in Genesis 2:16.

As it stands in the English translations, the translation of "to die" to "surely" is arbitrary in Genesis 2:17.

If one says that the vowel marks dictate the language construct, then such a one relies on the Masoretic Manuscript edits that the Masoretes added nearly 2,000 years after the original manuscripts, so that is arbitrary and capricous in Genesis 2:16-17.

The bottom line is that "to eat" must be translated "to eat", and "to die" must be translated "to die".

Continued to post 444
 
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Kermos

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Continued from post 443

The word "freely" in the English translations of Genesis 2:16 should not be used because the underlying Hebrew word truly means "to eat".

The word "surely" in the English translations of Genesis 2:17 should not be used because the underlying Hebrew word truly means "to die".

The word "may" in the English translations of Genesis 2:16 improperly represents the underlying Hebrew; rather, the word "will" (verb future tense) is appropriate based on the underlying Hebrew word.

Genesis 2:16-17 contains a command, the word "command" in Genesis 2:16 is singular, not plural, but singular, so all of the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17 is a single command. The word "may" in Genesis 2:16 used in the English translations linguistically reduces the command to a request because the option of eating from none of the trees would be valid with the word "may"; however, with the word "will" (verb future tense) then the Integrity of a command linguistically remains intact.

For the sake of consistency, if we apply the word "may" into the last of the final two words of Genesis 2:17, just as the English translators did in Genesis 2:16, then it becomes err apparent that the word "may" fails in that position for both verses. The result for Genesis 2:17 would be essentially "day you are to eat of it to die you may be dying" thus a potential punishment is expressed, so this is ambiguous. God is precise, so ambiguous does not work.

This demonstrates that the verbs used by God to construct the final two words of Genesis 2:16and Genesis 2:17 do not contain the word "may".

For Genesis 2:16-17 to be true to form, conjugates of "eat" must be used for each of the final two words in Genesis 2:16, and conjugates of "die" must be used for each of the final two words in Genesis 2:17.

Proper Translastion Based On The Hebrew
First, Genesis 2:16:

and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating"Second, please see this essay's "The Meaning Of The Hebrew Word כִּ֗י(ki)/'for'/'when' in Genesis 2:17 Comparison With Other Portions of Scripture" section explaining the usage of the grammatically accurate word "when".
Third, Genesis 2:17:

"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"
Fourth, properly bringing the two verses cohesively together to illuminate the entire command Genesis 2:16-17:and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"


Return to main essay "Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor"

Maybe your god is evil and gave a command, caused Adam to break that command, then punished him and all mankind for breaking it, but my God isn’t an evil sadist.

Scripture does not state God caused Adam to sin, so your convoluted diatribe is meaningless.

THE GOODNESS OF GOD

Lord Jesus says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so God is good.

The goodness of God delivers persons of the world from the wrath of God (John 3:16, John 3:21, John 3:36) along with the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) to keep God's children assuredly secure in the salvation imparted by God (John 10:27-29)! God is good to save any rebellious persons.

GOD THE CREATOR OF BOTH THE UNSAVED AND THE SAVED

God made the world and everything in it (Acts 17:24), all people, the saved and the unsaved, even people who will never be saved (2 Peter 2:9-10), this is Christian teaching, as it is written:

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being (John 1:3).

The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4).

Even under free-willian theology, the wicked are made, so their thesis that they can't believe that God created evil persons that never get to heaven argues against itself.

MAN IS SOLELY ACCOUNTABILITY FOR SIN

Man is accountable for man's sin (Romans 1:20, Romans 3:19, Romans 5:12); in other words, God is not accountable for the sins of man.

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself" (Ezekiel 18:20).

Every person commits sin (crime) against God (Romans 3:10-12), so justice requires punishment for sin, even punishment of hell.
 

Kermos

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Correct.
John 6:
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.



Correct.
Jer 1:
[5] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
1 John 3:
[20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.



God is all knowing. He knows a mans choice Before the man IS Born. God chooses a man "WHO WILL CHOOSE HIM!!!!"

Men do not KNOW their their Choices BEFORE they are born. Men Do not Know WHAT they WILL hear, learn, believe, CHOOSE until they HEAR, LEARN, BELIEVE....and Freely make their own Choice!

Yes God Chooses men.
And So what? He doesn't force a man to choose Him. He doesn't drag a man kicking and screaming in protest to Choose Him.
He gives men the (tools) to Freely Choose Him.
(Tools)
His Word, He Revealed.
His gift of Faith.
His Blessings.
His Promises.
Etc.
God WAITS for babes to be born, babble, toddle around, grow, hear bit by bit, learn bit by bit, becoming prepared to Hear His Word...
That they become Prepared....to Choose God.

* When a man "CHOOSES" God, He is Freely ELECTING to Become Converted IN Christ.
Forgiven and MADE A NEW CREATURE.

* If a man HAD "NO" FREE CHOICE...TO choose or reject God...HOW is THAT ^ JUST? Forced to Love God?
Because even you may "choose" to love someone....really, do you think it JUST or even a TRUE LOVE, if you could FORCE them to Love you back?

Correct.
1 John 4:
[19] ... he first loved us.

God Acknowledges OUR "CHOICE" to "CHOOSE HIM".

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.



Correct.



Hogwash. God said not to eat...or else die that day.
* Death is more than Physical Bodily Death.
* Any Separation from God, (Bodily or Soul, is Spiritual Death)
Adam ate. Adam "died", the moment he was "separated" from God (booted out of the garden was Adams separation from God).
Adam, as Scripture teaches, HAD His Sin Covered, (Gods works, covering Adams Flesh). Adam clearly was called a "son of God"...which should have learned...
"sons of God" ARE Saved.

Luke 3:
[38] Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.




False. NO ONE, forced or made Adam eat of the tree he was told not to eat from....or else.
Adam freely choose the consequence OF "or else".

Paul is speaking of the Effect of Adams FREEWILL (choice), upon the WHOLE of mankind...
A Covering of SIN, did NOT 'change' Adams SEED in his Corrupted Flesh. Every natural offspring of Adam so also had a "corrupt" SEED.
(Hint Hint...Jesus' Offering to mankind is for A Different SEED. Gods Perfect SEED!)

You accuse with limited understanding.
Everything I said IS Scripturally Sound.

Glory to God,
Taken

When you wrote "God is all knowing. He knows a mans choice Before the man IS Born. God chooses a man 'WHO WILL CHOOSE HIM!!!!'",

then at that moment you subtracted "you did not choose Me" from the Word of God (John 15:16).

God had me show you the Word of God on God's exclusive choosing of man in the very post to which you replied.

You do no receive the Word of God because you subtract from the Word of God.

The Word of God says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).
 

Kermos

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Matt 22:
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

No.
Discussing Scripture is NOT adding to Scripture...
No.
I have not added to Gods Prophecy or Commands.

Utterly Disagree with you, that mankind is VOID of Freewill to make his own Elections /Choices.

When you wrote "Adam exercised his FREEWILL", then you added to scripture.

In effect, you wrote that Adam said "of the tree, and I did freewill choose to eat.".

Truly, it is written "And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Genesis 3:12, KJV).

@Taken, WHEN YOU SAY OR WRITE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE UNDER DISCUSSION, THEN YOU ARE ADDING TO SCRIPTURE.

Action is expressed in Genesis 3:12, not choice, but action.

The Apostle Paul wrote "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam did not willingly eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

@Taken, here it is demonstrated that you subtract that which Paul wrote of "not willingly" when you wrote "Adam exercised his FREEWILL".

You have no problem adding to scripture and subtracting from scripture.

Since God set scripture, yet you add/subtract scripture, then you convey that God's revelation is not enough because your thoughts are required.

Adam was not imparted a free will just as the original post shows scripturally, and no person thereafter has been imparted a free will.
 

Renniks

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You are contradicting the Apostle Paul who wrote all time prior to the present with "until now"
"Until now" doesn't mean forever.
If I say I've been hungry "until now", when food is available, you don't assume I've never eaten before.

And you don't understand Genesis if you think creation was subject to frustration before the fall.
God said it was all " very good". It could not be good if it was always corrupted.
 
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Taken

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When you wrote "God is all knowing. He knows a mans choice Before the man IS Born. God chooses a man 'WHO WILL CHOOSE HIM!!!!'",

then at that moment you subtracted "you did not choose Me" from the Word of God (John 15:16).

I subtracted nothing.
In context. We are given Knowledge.
The Knowledge is God Did Know us Before we were naturally born.
God Did Choose "First" Whom He Will,
WITHOUT a man having chosen Him.

* Did you hear, learn, believe, have faith...
And EVER Freely Choose Him?

Because in context, Once a man heartfully chooses God...Scripture notifies you, He acknowledges YOUR Election of choosing Him.

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

God had me show you the Word of God on God's exclusive choosing of man in the very post to which you replied.

Gods Works granted are Powerful. However I highly doubt God had something to show me, via you. If God was showing you something, it more likely was for your benefit....
Like; for your consideration, IF you do not FREELY HEARTFULLY CHOOSE God, do you think instead God FORCES YOU to be With Him, Love Him, Submit to Him?

You do no receive the Word of God because you subtract from the Word of God.

I am not subject to your Opinions.
I am well aware Of Gods CHOICE of me.
I am well aware WHEN God CHOSE me.
(Long before Mankind was created 6 + thousand years ago)
I am well aware of MY CHOICE of God.
I am well aware of WHEN MY CHOICE of God was made.
(decades ago).
Different entities, Different Choice, Different times.

The Word of God says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your accusation that I "subtracted" Scripture is False.
You are trying to apply a Scripture that no longer applies to me. Me choosing God, already has been fulfilled.

A precept from Ancient History.
Joshua 24:15
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but [/B] as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.[/B]

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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@Taken, here it is demonstrated that you subtract that which Paul wrote of "not willingly" when you wrote "Adam exercised his FREEWILL".

You have no problem adding to scripture and subtracting from scripture.

You have a problem of making errounous accusations because you DO NOT LISTEN.

Outside of the Garden Adam was CREATED AND MADE... WITHOUT "HIS" WILL
(* Gods creation and making of mankind WAS GODS WILL!!!!)
Once Adam was put in the Garden... Adam HAD FREEWILL, made his OWN CHOICES

That was clearly told you, Scriptural examples of Adam "freely choosing" given you...
SHEESH...

Adam was not imparted a free will just as the original post shows scripturally, and no person thereafter has been imparted a free will.

Some people need a course in Learning HOW TO Learn.
 

Kermos

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no, no, no, no, man had freewill since the garden because before man existed freewill existed but remember G-d lets us choose even don't i don't like making the comparison the devil was good and he had freewill for they say angels cannot disobey the devil who is lucifer fought against the lord and it is said in the bible

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

— Revelation 12:7–10 (NIV)

So for freewill and to choose even do I not like this comparison does freewill exist and G-d gave it to show he is A benevelont G-d and fair he does not want to us to obey out of fear but in love to him submit to his will. The word is not Choosing in hebrew but the bible does state we choose our own paths

“Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails;” 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15 NASB

“For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.” Galatians 5:13

they were not used but our understanding is that freewill was giving to adam because he chose to eat of the tree of good and evil. Even though you said freewill is not giving to adam and paul proves it is not, it is evidence G-d gave it to people with consciouness so to show he is fair and gives us to choose from doing good and evil and angels disobey that cause the fall of the evil. People are responsible and the devil payed the price for his evil. Good and evil is how we are judged and there more things we learn exist in space but unfortunately Paul sees things from his time and does not understand neither no one why the devil rebbeled out his own evil and greed.

Freewill exist in the bible and before our existence so sorry there is truth in our decisions and action why people think our minds do not comprehend decisions but still even if the words were not use the example is their and the reality freewill exists before, today and after instead do good and love like G-d and your decision be his.

No scripture indicates man was imparted free-will.

Not one of those verses you quoted says man has a free will:
  • Revelation 12:7–10 mentions actions not free will choices.
  • 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 discusses love and righteous love is in God because among the brethren "love is from God" (1 John 4:7) and "God is love" (1 John 4:7).
  • Galatians 5:13 Paul writes of freedom from sin.
  • Joshua 24:15
    The Hebrew Word For "Choose" And It's Conjugates Is בָּחר (bachar) Strong's Number 977
    Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct, for example:

    IF condition THEN predicate

    Stated in a more Joshua 24:15 focused fashion.

    IF you_do_this that_will_happen

    Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

    A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

    Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15), so the condition (you_do_this) is "to serve the LORD is disagreeable in your eyes"; furthermore, Joshua 24:15 contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God . The condition Joshua expressed states the condition/state-of-being/nature of the person.

    Disagreeable does not mean choose.

    In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods to choose among for the those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" (Joshua 24:15), and the word "choose" in this verse is translated from בָּחר (bachar) (Strong's Number 977).

    Finaly, Joshua states "but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15).

    A state of being, "disagreeable", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15, and action, "serve", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15.

    There is no choice towards God mentioned in Joshua 24:15.

You are adding "choose God" (free will) where it does not exist in Scripture.

Just as the original post shows, Adam was not imparted free will, no no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.
 

Kermos

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no Kermos your putting in one side and all you say is I reject scripture never said that, your accusing me on A matter discussing freewill and still you miss the point we have choice that is all in no way i'm I against scripture you have given your testimony. Still freewill is biblical and G-d gave since the dawn of existence and even though the devil is A bad example which I did not want to use. It makes an example Adam was free in the garden and he was with Eve and even though thru error they made mistake.

they thought and did things they are not the devil we are not the devil. But decision exist and you must make the decision to love like G-d and love thy neighbor that is all.

In no way i'm trying to justify the devil I wish G-d killed him because of him the devil we are in sin promblem.

Three paragraphs with no scripture citation. You posted three paragraphs based on your thoughts of your freewill precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

@Taken, since you liked grumix8's post, this post is for you, as well.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, no no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.
 

grumix8

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Kermos you just say everything is wrong and your not wrong and your perfect try again young man because I see you make errors and have no recollection of them.
 
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Kermos

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You see kermos you don't know what your writting or saying truly you did not understand your own words. Please Kermos read again and you will find this is not trying to seperate from scripture but the knowing that freewill did exist and it choice G-d gave it but we must decide right and not the devil's way.

Look at that, another paragraph from you with no scripture citation. You posted yet another paragraph based on your thoughts of your freewill precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

You are adding freewill to creation account scripture in Genesis chapters 1 to 3 where freewill does not exist.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, no no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.
 

grumix8

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Nope your putting words in my mouth Kermos stop that it shows you don't have education shameful thing, and your just arguing and arguing for arguing sake. All you have posted means A different thing in hebrew not you mean stop paraphrasing Kermos. Your not G-d you a siple man who wants everything he's way.
 

Taken

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There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

@Taken, since you liked grumix8's post, this post is for you, as well.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, no no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

No one can UNDERSTAND "FOR YOU".
No one IS "Changing" Scripture, because they Do NOT Agree with "YOUR" Understanding.

* Outside of the Garden God created and made A man.
* Clearly THEN, and Clearly TO THIS DAY....
Not Adam, Not Any man IS Created or Made, BY HIS OWN WILL!!
Man is Created and Made, BY the WiLL OF GOD!
(Not rocket science!)

* Clearly ONCE God created and made Adam, and PUT HIM IN THE GARDEN...
* God Himself reveals BY His own Example...."HOW" the man "HAS FREEWILL."

(Hey lookie here man, here are some animals.....YOU "MAN", "YOU FREELY CHOOSE" AND DECIDE A NAME for these animals....
And What? According to you... (Adam must have DECLINED because he didn't have FREEWILL to Decide and Choose WHAT to Name the animals.) :rolleyes:

Well, I KNOW that is FALSE, because Adam DID by his own Freewill, Name the animals!

(And Hey listen Adam, eat of every tree IN THE GARDEN, but not "THIS ONE Tree"...
Again, Adam of his own FREEWILL, (ATE from THAT ONE TREE)... Nothing says ANYONE forced the fruit of the tree in Adams mouth, held his mouth shut, forcing him to EAT IT!)

NOTHING NEW...All day long from the beginning to this day...Men of their own FREEWILL pick and choose...what they WILL eat, WILL not eat, WILL do, WILL not do.

AND somewhere in every INDIVIDUALS life time....they CAN FREELY CHOOSE to Believe, Love, Commit, to the Lord Jesus...OR FREELY CHOOSE "NOT TO".

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus

NONSENSE! There is "no level" (your words), a man (WHO IS "NOT GOOD", which applies to ALL natural born men) CAN BECOME "GOOD", WITHOUT WILL-ingly, FREELY CHOOSING the Lord Jesus.

JESUS' WILL is revealed. He WILL restore and make a man anew.... IF THE MAN IS "WILLING".
 

Kermos

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first of all thanks! i really enjoyed reading that; it's well thought out and informative

this use of polyptoton is a common device in the Hebrew scripture -- 'dying you shall die' is the literal word-for-word translation of 'you shall surely die' and 'multiplying I will multiply your sorrow' in the judgement of the woman, for example. and many more, like 'visiting I will visit you' in Genesis 50:24

while yes -- that's a great point, that what God actually says is 'eating you shall eat' to Adam, it doesn't necessarily mean that he had no independent volition, and the counter-argument to your point is that what's meant by this linguistic emphatic is in fact that not only is he going to have the garden for food, he's going to really have it for food. the translators, much wiser men than me ((i am completely untrained in Greek or Hebrew)) understood this to carry the implication of having a great banquet set before him, in such a manner that one chooses what they will nosh from all the riches set before them. so 'freely eat' isn't arbitrary, but was drawn from the connotation of 'eating (you) will eat' -- this isn't a type of speech we are familiar with in our language, and has to be interpreted in order to be rendered into English. not that i am qualified to do so, but that i recognize people who are qualified, did so

this fits with the subsequent command God gives him saying he will not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden: this is certainly not God 'describing Adam's future actions' because God doesn't lie, and Adam eventually did eat from that tree. instead it's an instruction -- which implies that Adam has the capacity to understand that it is good to obey and evil to disobey ((i.e. he doesn't suddenly 'gain' an awareness of morality or the ability to make decisions only after eating from that tree)), and it implies that Adam also has some kind of agency allowing him to decide to eat or not eat, i.e. to obey or disobey. there would be no need for instructions if Adam is devoid of agency. if God is prophesying to Adam that he will not eat of the tree, then God is found a liar; if God caused Adam to eat of the tree, then God is the author of sin.

but look at another example in Genesis wherein we will ((hopefully)) not be bogged down by the fineries of language: God brought every living soul He had created before Adam to see what Adam would name them, and whatever Adam called them, that was their name. ((Genesis 2:19))
the text is very much stating that Adam is the one doing the naming -- he's the originator of the names. so how does Adam name all the living souls ((nephesh chayyah)) if Adam has zero free will?

I am not breaking up your response to respond to you piece by piece because of what I perceive as the effort that you put into your response. Instead, I have a series of "you wrote" below to refer to areas of your post.

You wrote "it doesn't necessarily mean that he had no independent volition".

As a reminder, in item 2.1.3 of the original post, I wrote "Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ".

The Word of God here "and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying 'Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying'" (Genesis 2:16-17) does not convey independent volition to Adam nor does the Word state "garden to eat you will choose to be eating". As is evident, choose is not in the Word of God.

You wrote the translators "understood this to carry the implication of having a great banquet set before him, in such a manner that one chooses what they will nosh".

An "implication" occurs when a person makes an inference upon a subject matter for which no underlying explicit text exists. The Word of God does not explicitly state that Adam had the ability to "choose", so the translators you mentioned add the implicit "chooses".

Have you ever heard a host, says "your delicacy is prepared, my friend, eat, EAT" as a banquet is revealed with a sweep of an outstretched arm?

Please note the increasing intensity of "eat, EAT".

God is beyond mere human comparison, but I am pointing out that God did not impart freewill to Adam nor did God state that Adam had independent volition.

This example shows generosity and caring.

You wrote "so 'freely eat' isn't arbitrary, but was drawn from the connotation of 'eating (you) will eat'".

The fact cannot be escaped that the word "freely" fails to have support from the Hebrew.

Connotation is another word for implication, so connotation is suseptable to the same as implication mentioned ab

We find "liberty to eat" recorded in Genesis 2:16 which is liberty of action - since eating is action.

You wrote "this isn't a type of speech we are familiar with in our language".

This type of speech lends intensity and emphasis, and this mechanism can and has been employed in English.

You wrote "this is certainly not God 'describing Adam's future actions'".

The part of the command "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from" does not describe Adam's future actions, yet this part of the command does express a prohibition.

On the other hand, this part does describe Adam's future action, "when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying" (Genesis 2:17).

The word "when" indicates an absolute occurrence. Notice that this is not "if" but "when".

Continued to post 457
 

Kermos

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Continued from post 456

first of all thanks! i really enjoyed reading that; it's well thought out and informative

this use of polyptoton is a common device in the Hebrew scripture -- 'dying you shall die' is the literal word-for-word translation of 'you shall surely die' and 'multiplying I will multiply your sorrow' in the judgement of the woman, for example. and many more, like 'visiting I will visit you' in Genesis 50:24

while yes -- that's a great point, that what God actually says is 'eating you shall eat' to Adam, it doesn't necessarily mean that he had no independent volition, and the counter-argument to your point is that what's meant by this linguistic emphatic is in fact that not only is he going to have the garden for food, he's going to really have it for food. the translators, much wiser men than me ((i am completely untrained in Greek or Hebrew)) understood this to carry the implication of having a great banquet set before him, in such a manner that one chooses what they will nosh from all the riches set before them. so 'freely eat' isn't arbitrary, but was drawn from the connotation of 'eating (you) will eat' -- this isn't a type of speech we are familiar with in our language, and has to be interpreted in order to be rendered into English. not that i am qualified to do so, but that i recognize people who are qualified, did so

this fits with the subsequent command God gives him saying he will not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden: this is certainly not God 'describing Adam's future actions' because God doesn't lie, and Adam eventually did eat from that tree. instead it's an instruction -- which implies that Adam has the capacity to understand that it is good to obey and evil to disobey ((i.e. he doesn't suddenly 'gain' an awareness of morality or the ability to make decisions only after eating from that tree)), and it implies that Adam also has some kind of agency allowing him to decide to eat or not eat, i.e. to obey or disobey. there would be no need for instructions if Adam is devoid of agency. if God is prophesying to Adam that he will not eat of the tree, then God is found a liar; if God caused Adam to eat of the tree, then God is the author of sin.

but look at another example in Genesis wherein we will ((hopefully)) not be bogged down by the fineries of language: God brought every living soul He had created before Adam to see what Adam would name them, and whatever Adam called them, that was their name. ((Genesis 2:19))
the text is very much stating that Adam is the one doing the naming -- he's the originator of the names. so how does Adam name all the living souls ((nephesh chayyah)) if Adam has zero free will?

You wrote "which implies that Adam has the capacity to understand that it is good to obey and evil to disobey".

Adam lacked the capacity to understand/know good and evil

because God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3:22)

consequently when God said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Genesis 1:26), God did not include the attribute of Adam knowing good and evil.

This means the command (instruction, as you wrote) does not imply that Adam knew good and evil prior to eating of the tree.

Please see the explanation about implication above since you used the word "implies".

You wrote "if God caused Adam to eat of the tree".

The Word of God is clear that God prophesied that Adam would eat of the tree (Genesis 2:17).

That is prophecy in Genesis 2:17, but looking elsewhere, causation can be found.

The Apostle Paul wrote of causation which is "futility".

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

"Not willingly" indicates "not free will".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which memes that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

You wrote "if God caused Adam to eat of the tree, then God is the author of sin".

The Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter wrote things about God's control, but first, I write to you:

Name two people that God did not create.

Name two people that means never sinned.

There are sinners who God made going to hell.

The Apostle Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The Apostle Paul wrote "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:19-23)

You wrote (asked) "how does Adam name all the living souls ((nephesh chayyah)) if Adam has zero free will".

The name in Adam's thoughts is the name he gave.

Notice that the word "choose" is absent from the recorded words in Genesis 2:19-20.

The action word of "call" used with Adam occurs in the recorded words in Genesis 2:19.

The action word of "gave" used with Adam occurs in the recorded words in Genesis 2:20.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, no no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.
 

Kermos

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Still without "understanding" of Gods Order and Way?

Gen 1:31
...on the Sixth Day
Gen 1:27
...God created AND made man.
Gen 2:7
...God CREATED man with the Dust of Gods Earth.
'AND'
...God MADE man Alive with Gods Breath.

Scriptural teaching.
Paul Confirms in his teaching....
* The CREATED and MADE man...
WAS CREATED and MADE by the WILL of God.
* The CREATED and MADE man...
"WAS NOT" Created and Made BY THE WILL OF man!!

The Apostle Paul conveyed that no part of the creation willingly subjected any part of the creation to futility when he wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

AFTER God CREATED and MADE man,

GOD PUT the man called Adam IN Gods Garden. Gen 2:15

Once the Created and Made man was put IN Gods Garden, IS Precisely WHEN the mans FREEWILL, decisions, choices, BECAME "in effect".

Adam's FIRST scriptural Example of Adam exercising his FREEWILL...
Gen 2:19 ... Adam Naming creatures what he freely chose to call them.

You just added "chose" to scripture in Genesis 2:19.

Gen 2:20 ... Adam continuing his Freewill, to name animals.

You just added "Freewill" to scripture in Genesis 2:20.

Gen 2:23 ... Adam Freely calling the thing that came forth out from Adam, Woman.
Gen 3:12 ...Adam Freely confesses to God, He did eat of the forbidden tree.
Gen 3:20 ... Adam Freely chose the Name Eve for his wife. (Who was the thing, Adam freely called Woman and Eve)

You just added "chose" to scripture in Genesis 3:20.

Scripture clearly reveals VIA GODS WILL, (NOT MANS) God CREATED and MADE mankind.

Scripture IN Genesis and Scriptural teaching of Paul....clearly reveals ONCE God creates and makes a man ... that created and made man HAS and Exercises his own FREEWILL.

Don't attempt to burden me with your accusations. Albeit IT IS you exercising your FREEWILL to make accusations Against me...
It's a fail. Nothing whatsoever, have I said of rejecting ANY Scripture. Your accusations are neither true or have affect on me.

Look at you putting yourself on the throne of God as you add to scripture again and again and again.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, no no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.
 

grumix8

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Kermos you've been paraphrasing and puttin your own thoughts you have your pet indoctrination and it's not the same for all of us. Perhaps you should see things like back how Hebrew people in Abraham people said and talk.
 

Kermos

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Gen 2:20 does not say Adam called the beasts "the name in his mind."

Genesis 2:
[20] And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field...

Interesting you have used so much space exercising "your freewill" to accuse people of adding to Scripture while overlooking you doing what you accuse.

Praying for you to Ask God for His Understanding of False accusations and Freewill.

Adam had a mind.

"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND" (Matthew 22:37).

Many passages of scripture present the concept of the mind of man; therefore, God talks about the mind of man!

Because man's mind is scriptural, then writing that Adam used his mind is Biblical.

No passages present the concept of man being imparted freewill.

Because freewill is unscriptural, then writing that Adam used his freewill is unbiblical.

Adam's mind engaged when he named the animals as recorded in Genesis 2:20.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, no no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.