saved by faith alone

[Ezra]

BELIEVE = HAVE FAITH

So you are being deliberately obtuse. Bad choice.

really ? Obtuse definition, not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull. so you think im stupid ? you think i am unlearned . then i accuse you of adding to the word of God... because your phrase saved by faith alone is not scripture. is a man made term/man made doctrine used by Calvinist.

 

[mailmandan]

i noticed you bypassed romans 3 justified by Grace .... there is no scripture that reads we are saved by faith alone

It’s not about bypassing Romans 3 and grace is God’s part anyway “justified freely by HIS grace” and faith is our part. Salvation through faith in Christ alone means that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. You don’t need to add the word “alone” to Ephesians 2:8 in order to figure that out. Are you only concerned about including grace into the equation or also works?

 

[Ezra]

It’s not about bypassing Romans 3 and grace is God’s part anyway “justified freely by HIS grace” and faith is our part. Salvation through faith in Christ alone means that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. You don’t need to add the word “alone” to Ephesians 2:8 in order to figure that out. Are you only concerned about including grace into the equation or also works?

your wording saved by faith alone is wrong. its very misleading if i went to a lost man and told him just believe and your saved. would be misleading. Grace has to be introduced before Faith works. so its through FAITH and not faith alone by grace through faith

 

[mailmandan]

your wording saved by faith alone is wrong. its very misleading if i went to a lost man and told him just believe and your saved. would be misleading. Grace has to be introduced before Faith works. so its through FAITH and not faith alone by grace through faith

You are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Remind them that Jesus said He came to call sinners unto repentance- I doubt that He changed His mind - and warned that unless ye repent ye shall perish.

And Acts 3:19 says repentance is for forgiveness of our sins.

Plus Acts 20:21 Paul preached to Jew and gentile, repentance toward God AND faith toward Jesus.

And for the hyper grace claim that repentance is not needed after salvation, there’s the fact that Jesus warned four out of seven churches to repent.

Paul and James are not in conflict with each other. They are to be viewed in harmony, because Paul is talking about faith in the finished work of Christ that justifies a person before God, and James is talking about how a person demonstrates that faith in his subsequent converted state.

When a person is genuinely converted to Christ, he becomes a totally new person, moving in an entirely new direction in life, having totally different values. He has a hatred of sin and does what he can to avoid it. James points out that if a person professes to be a new creation in Christ by faith, then he has to show it in his conduct, ie: what he does. Loving God and his neighbour is shown by actions and not just empty talk. A person in Christ is no longer his own, he has been bought with a price; therefore he is obligated to follow the command of Christ to love God and his neighbour.

Paul shows that through faith in the finished work of Christ, there is no longer any condemnation for failure and shortcoming. The guilt, punishment and bondage to sin has been removed, allowing the believer to conduct himself according to the fruit of the Spirit (shown in his actions (works), and the power to forsake the works of the flesh.

In summary, the person's faith in the finished work of Christ justifies him before God. The way the believer conducts himself subsequently, justifies his faith in Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Paul and James are not in conflict with each other. They are to be viewed in harmony, because Paul is talking about faith in the finished work of Christ that justifies a person before God, and James is talking about how a person demonstrates that faith in his subsequent converted state..

Amen! James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[Enoch111]

You are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.

That's the whole point. Complicate -- Confound -- Confuse. He could not accept one plain and simple Scripture to prove that he had nothing to argue about.

 

[Curtis]

Paul and James are not in conflict with each other. They are to be viewed in harmony, because Paul is talking about faith in the finished work of Christ that justifies a person before God, and James is talking about how a person demonstrates that faith in his subsequent converted state.

When a person is genuinely converted to Christ, he becomes a totally new person, moving in an entirely new direction in life, having totally different values. He has a hatred of sin and does what he can to avoid it. James points out that if a person professes to be a new creation in Christ by faith, then he has to show it in his conduct, ie: what he does. Loving God and his neighbour is shown by actions and not just empty talk. A person in Christ is no longer his own, he has been bought with a price; therefore he is obligated to follow the command of Christ to love God and his neighbour.

Paul shows that through faith in the finished work of Christ, there is no longer any condemnation for failure and shortcoming. The guilt, punishment and bondage to sin has been removed, allowing the believer to conduct himself according to the fruit of the Spirit (shown in his actions (works), and the power to forsake the works of the flesh.

In summary, the person's faith in the finished work of Christ justifies him before God. The way the believer conducts himself subsequently, justifies his faith in Christ.

Now for the facts:

It’s sad that the majority of believers never read anything but someone’s proof texts on a given topic - this is especially true about works.

They quote Ephesians 2:8-9 about being saved apart from works, without having a clue what works Paul’s talking about, then assume any condition or requirement of a believer is a work, then declare confidently that absolutely nothing is required of us after salvation.

There was a serious controversy in Paul’s day, because many of the Jewish Christians claimed that gentile believers were still required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

It got bad enough that all the apostles and church leaders met in Acts 15 to decide what should be done about the problem.

In Paul’s writings, he being the apostle TO the gentiles, emphasizes continually that gentile believers, and all believers are saved apart from works of the law of Moses.

Every time Paul mentions law, the law, works of the law, or works, or works of righteousness*, he is always referring to the works of the law of Moses, as the context shows.

( * Deuteronomy 6:25 Keeping the works of the law, was for their righteousness)

We are justified by faith apart from the works of the law of Moses, which is made up of 613 statutes, commands, and laws that all have to be kept.

We don’t have to sacrifice animals, keep feast days, burnt offerings, or any of the works of the law of Moses - but there are works other than the works of the law of Moses, and James is emphasizing the type of works required of believers for justification.

Therefore Paul doesn’t cancel out James.

James is talking about works that take care of those in need: widows and orphans, James 1:27, those naked and hungry James 2:15, which is part of keeping the royal law, the law of love, per the great commandment Jesus gave, which has two parts: loving God with all our heart, and loving our neighbors as ourselves, and we are judged if we fail to keep the royal law, James 2:8-13.

James warns us to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22, , and deceiving ourselves.

In fact Jesus sends to hell as sinners, those who did nothing to help the needy in Matthew 25:31-46.

We know from James that the damned in Matthew 25:31-46 failed to keep the royal law of love -( and scripture says if you know to do good and fail to do it, that’s a sin )- thus they are sent to hell as sinners, for their sin of ignoring those in need - they are the epitome of those who failed to be doers of the word, and not hearers only, and deceived themselves right into hell. James 1:22

Are we justified by works of the law of Moses? Absolutely not.

Are we justified by works of taking cars of widows, orphans, the hungry, naked, and homeless and the needy? Absolutely yes.


Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?


Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,


Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?


Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?


Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;


Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.


Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone


There you have it:

Paul: we are not justified by the (613) works of the law of Moses.

James: we are justified by works of helping the needy, and of obedience.

 

[Enoch111]

Therefore Paul doesn’t cancel out James.

Paul goes all the way back to Abraham (when there was no Law) to refute your claims. Kindly read and study Romans 4 and other passages. So let's cut to the chase:

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

No "works of the Law" here. Just "to him that worketh" (to earn salvation). And as James tells us Abraham was justified before men by his obedience. Abraham was therefore SEEN AS JUSTIFIED by what he did. But long before that he was justified purely by grace through faith.

 

[prism]

i would like to see scripture that has these exact words in it .

ditto with the Trinity...

This is about as close as I find...

Romans 3:28 (NASB) For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

 

[prism]

thank you i am being chastised in another forum for bucking against faith alone

What would you add to faith as far as man's part goes?

 

[Ezra]

You are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.

of course i go by scripture you go by saved by faith alone a man made phrase

 

[Ezra]

What would you add to faith as far as man's part goes?

i dont add i state what the Bible says how were saved by grace through faith your right faith is our part GRACE IS GOD PART . GRACE HAS TO BE THERE FOR US TO ACCEPT IT BY FAITH .

 

[mailmandan]

of course i go by scripture you go by saved by faith alone a man made phrase

I went by scripture in post #12 and as I already explained, man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. You just don’t understand what is meant by “alone.”

 

[Paul Christensen]

of course i go by scripture you go by saved by faith alone a man made phrase

Faith is a word that has to be accompanied by action. Merely believing something is nothing more than mental assent. If a person has faith in something, his actions show his faith.

I can believe that my car will start on a cold morning but I haven't exercised my faith in that belief until I go out, turn the key, and start up the car. My action in turning the key to start the car demonstrates that I have faith in my belief that the car will start.

I could have believe the Gospel just the same as the devil does. The difference is that the devil could not exercise faith in the finished work of Christ. That ability was not given to him.

However, I could exercise faith by embracing Christ as my Saviour, receiving the Holy Spirit, and working with Him to achieve genuine conversion to Christ, involving turning away from the works of the flesh and seeking to live according to the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Ezra]

I went by scripture in post #12 and as I already explained, man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. You just don’t understand what is meant by “alone.”

i dont NEED TO UNDERTSAND SAVED BY FAITH ALONE i have to understand saved by grace through faith your theory i walk up to a lost man say just have faith your saved. no repentance no grace just have faith if i walked into a bar around here. asking hey do you believe in God do you have faith . they would say yes. then that would mean they was saved

 

[FHII]

i dont add i state what the Bible says how were saved by grace through faith your right faith is our part GRACE IS GOD PART . GRACE HAS TO BE THERE FOR US TO ACCEPT IT BY FAITH .

Ezra, since your OP I have heard you ask (in a challenging manner) where it says we are saved by faith alone. I have also been waiting for you to say what else is needed (since it was a challenging-styled question). This is the first time I've seen you give somewhat an indication of what more is needed. Your answer (if I understand you correctly is "grace".

I of course, agree. In fact, IT IS what saves us! We get it THROUGH faith, but its grace that saves. However, many have quoted that famous verse in Eph 2, so I think many understand the relationship between salvation/grace/faith. Perhaps they didn't emphasize the grace part as much as you'd like (and I understand that) but perhaps they are on the same page as you?

On the other hand, perhaps I am presuming too much: was there something else needed in your point of view?

 

[FHII]

We don’t have to sacrifice animals, keep feast days, burnt offerings, or any of the works of the law of Moses - but there are works other than the works of the law of Moses, and James is emphasizing the type of works required of believers for justification.

Therefore Paul doesn’t cancel out James.

Curtis, I appreciate your posts. I've read them all, and while I'd love to discuss what you've said point by point, in this case it would be a terrible idea... Too long and opens the door to getting off topic. I picked this particular quote to start my commentary as it is a common theme in what I've read from you.

I do believe the book of James to be inspired by God, and I do believe James to be a Man of God (though not an apostle). But he was not without doctrinal flaws.

I read an earlier post where you said something to the effect that we shouldn't read James as though he was talking about the Law of Moses. I agree. I said I believe it is inspired, so we can and should read it through a spiritual eye. That's how GOD wants us to read it. The problem is I don't believe that is what James was talking about.

I know... That's confusing. But if the text was inspired, then it was God guiding James, not James guiding James. So God gave him what to write, but James's POV was different.

What people don't understand is that James was a firm believer in KEEPING the Law of Moses... At least for the Jew. Gentiles didn't have to keep it all (just a few things which Paul never enforced totally) but he never said Jews were free from the Law. In other words, two separate laws for Christians based on ethnicity.

I understand that will upset some, but look at the historical evidence. I want you to look closely at Acts 15. Yes, he delivered a legal opinion not to trouble the gentiles but never said the Jews had that same freedom (Paul did). Next, look at Acts 21. James tells Paul there are Jewish believers (Christians) still zealous for the Law and scolds Paul for teaching otherwise.

Lets go back to the boom of James and read the opening lines... He was addressing it to the 12 tribes who were scattered. So he was speaking to a select portion of Christians. Now yes, all Christians can benefit and be edified by his writings, but unless James had a change of heart, he had the mindset of working within the Law. He was wrong.

In conclusion, no... The Bible doesn't have contradictions when you read all of it. But there are conflicts in the Bible and there was conflict between James and Paul. They were allies, and James was in good company: Paul had conflicts with Peter, John and Barnabas too.

Reading James with a spiritual mind will produce truth. We do have to have "spiritual works" or "works of faith". They won't be seen by men.

That's what God is talking about, but that is not what James was talking about.

 

[prism]

i dont add i state what the Bible says how were saved by grace through faith your right faith is our part GRACE IS GOD PART . GRACE HAS TO BE THERE FOR US TO ACCEPT IT BY FAITH .

So would you agree that man is saved through grace alone by faith alone?

 

[Curtis]

Paul goes all the way back to Abraham (when there was no Law) to refute your claims. Kindly read and study Romans 4 and other passages. So let's cut to the chase:

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

No "works of the Law" here. Just "to him that worketh" (to earn salvation). And as James tells us Abraham was justified before men by his obedience. Abraham was therefore SEEN AS JUSTIFIED by what he did. But long before that he was justified purely by grace through faith.

To him that WORKETH WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES - that’s what Paul means.

You missed the fact that every time paul mentions works, it’s ALWAYS in the context of WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES. Always. Every time. Without exception.
You proved you absolutely didn’t read what I wrote - I covered your claim extensively.

Yes, Paul says, as I explicitly SAID, Abraham was justified apart from THE WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES, whereas James said Abraham WAS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, as are ALL MEN - but those works are not works of the law of Moses at all.

You might try reading this, this time:

There was a serious controversy in Paul’s day, because there many of the Jewish Christians claimed that gentile believers were still required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.


It got bad enough that all the apostles and church leaders met in Acts 15 to decide what should be done about the problem.


They decided gentile believers were not under the law of Moses.


In Paul’s writings - since he is the apostle TO the gentiles (Galatians 5:8)- he emphasizes continually that gentile believers are saved apart from works of the law of Moses.


Every time Paul mentions law, the law, works of the law, works, or works of righteousness*, he is always referring to the works of the law of Moses.

( * Deuteronomy 6:25 keeping the works of the law of Moses was their righteousness)


We are justified by faith apart from the works of the law of Moses, which is made up of 613 statutes, commands, and laws that all have to be kept.


We don’t have to sacrifice animals, keep feast days, kosher diets, burnt offerings, or any of the works of the law of Moses - but there are works other than the works of the law of Moses - and James is about the works required of believers for justification.