The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[brightfame52]

Acting as High Priest !

If Christ in Jn 17:9 was acting as High Priest, and no doubt He was since He was about to sacrifice Himself Jn 17:19

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Note: This Sanctification denotes His Death !

This being the case, He would be performing the duties of the High Priest in His Prayer in Jn 17:9, its called intercession Heb 7:25-26, Now since Christ expressly said, that He intercedes not in behalf of the whole world of mankind in general, then there is no ground whatsoever to say that His Sacrificial death of Himself Jn 17:19 was for mankind in general ! It's pretty simple, since He did not intercede for everyone without exception, then He did not die for everyone without exception, and when He said here Jn 17:9,19,20 still applies to day !

To preach that Christ died or sacrificed Himself for the whole world without exception, for everyone in that sense, is preaching a false Gospel !

 

[Episkopos]

To preach that Christ died or sacrificed Himself for the whole world without exception, for everyone in that sense, is preaching a false Gospel !

The opposite is true. Jesus came to win back creation to Himself. He purchased His creation back with His own blood. His eternal life triumphed over death. His sinless life conquered sin. So far there is no mention of you in particular or of believers in general.

Your confusion is what is personal as opposed to what is available for all men.

If there is a pot-hole in the road, then any driver that uses the road and runs over it would feel the bump. Now if a car swerves around the pot hole and is able to avoid it, does that mean that the pot-hole was not created for him? Can we make a pot-hole personal? And yet the next driver doesn't see it and runs over it. Does that mean that the pot-hole was created for him personally?

Jesus came to save the whole world. The Bible says...ESPECIALLY them that believe.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." (1 Tim. 4:10)

Especially but not exclusively.
Will you take away from the Bible in your quest to impose your own will over God's? You should humble yourself and seek to be instructed rather than take an arrogant stance against the truth.

Your error is in changing the words of God to fit your own understanding, as many will do.

Did Jesus come only to save the church? What does it say...For God so loved the church? Or is it..for God so loved the world?

Then there is a compounding of the error in a lack of understanding of what Jesus was resurrected in order to bring to those who would enter into Him.
Please consider how you are reasoning and which part of you, you are seeking justification for.

 

[theefaith]

That is a foolish statement for the Word of God says "when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13).

You seem very, very scared to answer this question, and I've answered two of your questions in the interim since I originally posed this question to you:

@theefaith, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of “the whole world” as it is written in “the whole world lies in the evil one” (1 John 5:19)?

we are in the new covenant not the world

 

[theefaith]

Brother Theefaith, let us confess that the Church of Jesus Christ (both as a collection of individuals and as an institution) has over the centuries proved itself to be part of The World. We have given in to venality, greed, the craving for worldly power, violence, and other sins. "We have failed to be an obedient Church, we have broken Your law, we have not done Your will, we have not loved our neighbors, and we have failed to hear the cry of the needy." Forgive us, O Lord.

It is to Christ's credit that He still loves us. But then, the relationship between Christ and His Church is necessarily deeper than the common grace love between God and the World. "We love Him because He first loved us".

never!
It is the spotless bride of Christ

individual’s are sinners and not impeccable but not the holy church

the church and Christ are one acts 9:4
If the church were sinful Christ would be sinful
If the church taught error Christ would teach error Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

 

[Kermos]

we are in the new covenant not the world

You just used the word "in" with reference to the word "world", so, in effect, you changed the question into something that it is not.

In the question, the word "in" is used in reference to "the evil one"; in other words, "lies in the evil one" is in the question.

On the other hand, the word "of" is used in reference to the word "world"; in other words, "part of the whole world" is in the question.

I am asking if you are part of a particular group in the question, and since you did not answer the question I posed it to you again:

@theefaith, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of “the whole world” as it is written in “the whole world lies in the evil one” (1 John 5:19)?

 

[brightfame52]

epi

The opposite is true.

No its not !

 

[Kermos]

Brother Kermos, I consider you, me, and every individual in The Whole Wide World (believer and unbeliever, without exception !) to be part of the Whole World. While I acknowledge the tension between the "Now" and the "Not Yet" for believers, it is self-evident that we are currently in The World, and it is empirically undeniable that we are subject to the sin and death that is endemic to a system that lies in the Evil One. Undeniable and Biblical.

Dear @Lambano,

I am not part of “the whole world” as it is written in “the whole world lies in the evil one” (1 John 5:19) for the Apostle John also wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13).

"Overcome" means to be beyond, so the Apostle explains with absolute certainty that Christians do not "lie in the evil one".

As for you, you have openly declared that you, being a part of the group called the whole world in 1 John 5:19, "lie in the evil one".

 

[brightfame52]

I lay down my Life for the Sheep !

Christ has already stated specifically for whom He laid down His life for, do you believe Him is the question ? Jn 10:11-15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Therefore the OUR SINS in 1 Cor 15:3 would refer to the Sheep !

Christ says that He knows His Sheep Vs 14 which we understand to meaneth He foreknew them all Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

And it should also be made clear that one does not have to be a believer in Christ to be one of His Sheep, for this is understood by Christ statement ' Other Sheep I have that are not of this fold [ethnic jews, but of the gentiles also] of which He says, them also I must bring, and they SHALL HEAR MY VOICE, which is the Gospel of their Salvation, and by that Hearing, Faith comes. Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

At that time, those Sheep in the gentiles, were unbelievers and Idolaters, but they were still His Sheep that He had. He had them because the Father had gave them to Him, and this ensured that they would Hear His Voice and Believe, another way of saying what He said in Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

They are given to Christ before they come to Him or Believe in Him !

Yet many deceivers would have us believe that one is not a Sheep of Christ until after they believe, which has now been proven to be error, a lie, by Christ's very words ! " Other Sheep I have" yet being uncalled by the Gospel as of yet to Gospel Faith and Obedience.

Note: Even the unbelieving Sheep are never the goats, that shall hear this words soon Matt 25:33,41432

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And it is a lie, and cannot be supported by scripture that Christ laid down His Life for the goats , and He never said He did !

 

[Kermos]

@Episkopos, just a reminder that I've not received an answer to the question in this post in this thread, which is:

Episkopos, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos, just a reminder that I've not received an answer to the question in this post in this thread, which is:

Episkopos, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

If you would just re-read my response from the original post you would see that I answered that question...but maybe I answered too accurately.

By making it personal you are deviating from the truth as to your own predicament. Do you want to compare your depravities with that of others? You should be asking "am I under the sway of the evil one?...not foist that on another person. But regardless on these forums I don't expect humility and real concern for one's own depravity as that is seen as unimportant because of poor teaching.
Now I normally would not answer the same question over again what I already have but i will because you seem to have a gap in your understanding of the word.

So here is my answer again....

The whole world is under the sway of the devil...UNLESS......that person is abiding in Christ. To the degree that our minds are not that of Christ we will come under the sway of the devil through ignorance of His ways or else ignorance of God's ways. But if we are uncrucified in the outer man, then the devil will catch us as he wills. It is a game of cat and mouse, IOW, until we are crucified in the outer man and become DEAD to sin and the pull of this world.

“And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” (2 Tim. 2:26)

Now only the devil looks to either exalt or abase a brother, through a smug accusatory tone, so I won't say more than that since I don't know you or trust you with anything personal, either way.

this is not a forum of disclosure or a platform for either justification or condemnation based on intimate details of one's personal walk. And I certainly don't think that a given doctrine needs to be used against a person. Or that such a doctrine might be a chance to boast, even in the Lord. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts someone of sin. And it is the Spirit that brings the peace and joy of a walk that is pleasing to God.
You should let the Spirit teach you since you obviously will not receive something that is meant for your inner man to let slip past your outer man if it comes from a brother. And that is the whole issue. As we defend ourselves against the truth we are building up the walls of defense against the Lord. Will you deny the truth of the word in order to seek to fulfill the words of God elsewhere? So you should challenge your own understanding.

What it looks like to me is that you are seeking to hide your own depravities behind a challenge of the existence of those same depravities in others. But doing that is itself another depravity. So I don't get involved in such things, and neither should you. You will be judged for what you do. And I will be judged for what I have done. That should be enough for you. What do you care if a brother is either behind you or ahead of you in becoming free from the pull of this world? Does that change the truth of the word?

 

[brightfame52]

Particular Salvation for the Children !

Heb 2:14-16

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

There is just no way to preach the True Gospel without emphasis on whose sins Christ died for, and it certainly was not for the sins of all men without exception, for scripture never particularly states that, however on many occasions it does particularly states exactly for whom Christ died for or gave Himself for, for instance here in Eph 5:25, the inspired testimony here is that He particularly gave Himself as an Offering for the Church !

Now lets look at another passage that specifically states whom Christ died for Heb 2:14-16, The Children, for notice it reads " for the Children took part of flesh and blood" both in their, both in their Federal Natural Head Adam at Creation, and individually at their own physical birth, He [ Their Head Spiritually] took on the same, that is a Physical Existence in Flesh and Blood, and for what purpose, it was to deliver them [The Children], for He came to specifically, and particularly deliver or release them from the fear of death, and the way He did that was for their sake abolish Death altogether 2 Tim 1:10433

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Note: None for whom Christ died shall ever see Death, because it has for them been abolished !

So its impossible for anyone Christ died for to ever experience this Rev 20:14

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Episkopos]

Particular Salvation for the Children !

Heb 2:14-16

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

There is just no way to preach the True Gospel without emphasis on whose sins Christ died for, and it certainly was not for the sins of all men without exception, for scripture never particularly states that, however on many occasions it does particularly states exactly for whom Christ died for or gave Himself for, for instance here in Eph 5:25, the inspired testimony here is that He particularly gave Himself as an Offering for the Church !

Now lets look at another passage that specifically states whom Christ died for Heb 2:14-16, The Children, for notice it reads " for the Children took part of flesh and blood" both in their, both in their Federal Natural Head Adam at Creation, and individually at their own physical birth, He [ Their Head Spiritually] took on the same, that is a Physical Existence in Flesh and Blood, and for what purpose, it was to deliver them [The Children], for He came to specifically, and particularly deliver or release them from the fear of death, and the way He did that was for their sake abolish Death altogether 2 Tim 1:10433

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Note: None for whom Christ died shall ever see Death, because it has for them been abolished !

So its impossible for anyone Christ died for to ever experience this Rev 20:14

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If you have to ignore one aspect of the truth to defend another aspect, it means you have not yet understood the truth on its own terms. We don't promote the truth by negating it. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

But He was RAISED for the justification of life for all who enter into Christ.

A religion of death focuses on the death of Jesus for justification. It will ignore that the gospel is about life...a life that is eternal and free from any spot or wrinkle of sin.

Choose life.

 

[brightfame52]

If you have to ignore one aspect of the truth to defend another aspect, it means you have not yet understood the truth on its own terms. We don't promote the truth by negating it. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

But He was RAISED for the justification of life in all who enter into Christ.

A religion of death focuses on the death of Jesus for justification. It will ignore that the gospel is about life...a life that is eternal and free from any spot or wrinkle of sin.

Choose life.

Particular Salvation for the Children is what I was explaining.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

Isn't debating that statement what this whole thread is about? If a thread was titled, "Oil is lighter than water" and someone wrote that it isn't, the statement adds nothing - void of detailing the method - at arriving at that conclusion, right?

 

[Episkopos]

Isn't debating that statement what this whole thread is about? If a thread was titled, "Oil is lighter than water" and someone wrote that it isn't, the statement adds nothing - void of detailing the method - at arriving at that conclusion, right?

But if we are taking the word seriously then why do so many deny the simplest and most basic verses when they are building up their own sepulchers of dogmatic beliefs?

 

[Wrangler]

But if we are taking the word seriously then why do so many deny the simplest and most basic verses when they are building up their own sepulchers of dogmatic beliefs?

Human nature. Pride. Ego. My doctrine is right. Anyone who doesn't share that is wrong. That about sums it up, doesn't it?

I don't agree with the claim that Jesus died for the whole world on 2 grounds:
universalism is not supported biblically

• the Bible is highly metaphorical much of the time, e.g., as many descendants as grains of sand in the desert. It is not intended to be literal.

To these points, what is your thoughts?

 

[Episkopos]

Human nature. Pride. Ego. My doctrine is right. Anyone who doesn't share that is wrong. That about sums it up, doesn't it?

I don't agree with the claim that Jesus died for the whole world on 2 grounds:
universalism is not supported biblically

• the Bible is highly metaphorical much of the time, e.g., as many descendants as grains of sand in the desert. It is not intended to be literal.

To these points, what is your thoughts?

My thought is that you value your own judgment above the words of God. You don't find the truth when you exclude some of it. The truth will elude you until you have ALL the verses of the Bible lined up properly.

If you have ever shot a rifle you will know that you need to line up both sights in order to shoot accurately. If you only use one sight, and think the other is metaphoric or some other nonsense, then you might just be shooting sideways.

 

[Wrangler]

My thought is that you ...

I ask you about IDEAS. All you can do is Appeal to Hominem. You’ve abandoned the discussion.

I’ve lined up all of Scripture nicely. Thank you.

Make a blessed day.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Particular Salvation for the Children is what I was explaining.

Hi brightfame52.

I haven't read all the posts but I think the discussion is about the difference between God's "sufficient grace" and His "efficient grace".

Although the suffering and sacrifice by Christ on the Cross quarantees God's Grace is "sufficient" to cover the sins of the entire world, the reality is that because His Grace is only accessible through faith in Christ, it is therefore only “efficient” to those having no will or desire to resist it, as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives.

Sufficent to save anyone and everyone. Efficient to save those who hear the Word of God in faith which thus produces fruit.

 

[Corlove13]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:8

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

Hi, how about st John 3:16......whosoever does not have a boundary?