Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[Ronald David Bruno]

You have contradicted yourself again in this post.

I get it, you're another one who thinks you no longer have flesh (where sin dwells). You suppose Christ, when He cleansed you, your whole being was perfected? Your spirit is cleansed, BUT it takes quite some time to get your behavior to cooperate and fruit to grow, to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.
That would have been nice. The world would certainly see the change like night to day. But they don't do they. They see priests molesting boys and Pastors getting rich. They do see faithful people and churches who aren't perfect. They see others with serious problems as in the first century. (example: 7 letters to 7 churches in Revelation)

 

[JunChosen]

First off they are David's words and he knew so little about what was really going on.

You forget, "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the the Holy Ghost."

I just take a stand against evil. The Calvinists that believe God is a monstrous puppet master and just for the sole purpose of edifying themselves. I take a stand against Voodoo which combines witchcraft and Christianity. I take as stand against the Jehovah's Witnesses which deny the deity of Christ. I take a stand against the OSAS crowd the ruins people's lives and leads them to hell. I take a stand against the new denomination which is a social religion that tries to deny the morality of the Bible. I have done battle with evil my whole life and I am good at it.

After all what you've said above it reminded me of the narrative of Matthew 19 what Jesus said to the young man:
Matthew 19:20-21
20) The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21) Jesus said unto him, if thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in heaven: and follow me.

In other words, what Jesus said to the young man pertains to us today also, in our spiritual work, and to follow Him with love and meekness that shows we belong to Him.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Grailhunter]

You forget, "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the the Holy Ghost."

I am going to start charging for theological lessons....
The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is not identified as an entity in the Old Testament. The Hebrews...Israelites...Jews did not know of or believe in the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament period nor do they believe in the Holy Spirit today. Now Yahweh has a Spirit that is Holy, that the Jews understand

The word prophecy appears 6 times in the Old Testament and prophecies are identified as such.

After all what you've said above it reminded me of the narrative of Matthew 19 what Jesus said to the young man:
Matthew 19:20-21
20) The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21) Jesus said unto him, if thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in heaven: and follow me.

In other words, what Jesus said to the young man pertains to us today also, in our spiritual work, and to follow Him with love and meekness that shows we belong to Him.

Except for....
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Call me traditional but....a religion that makes God out to be monstrous puppet master and is responsible for leading people to hell is going to end with a fiery hell as a chapel.

Calvinism is a theological orientation, not a denomination or organization, your not going to find a church called the Calvinist Church of _______. Calvinist are known to be infiltrators and many Protestant denominations are concerned with the corruption.
For example...
In the Southern Baptist Convention, the country’s largest Protestant denomination, the rise of Calvinism has provoked discord. In a 2012 poll of 1,066 Southern Baptist pastors conducted by Life Way Research, a nonprofit group associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, 30 percent considered their churches Calvinist — while twice as many were concerned “about the impact of Calvinism.”

I consider Calvinism as evil and I am not alone. Most of these anti-Calvinist posters I send you are easily found on internet....the world knows. There is a virtual smorgasbord of Protestant denominations to choose from....What is the interest and driving force behind people choosing a religion that blasphemes God, does not make sense, and leads people to hell. And that is the point I keep making, we can not see Satan, but you can see his footprints, and his intent.

 

[kcnalp]

I am going to start charging for theological lessons....
The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is not identified as an entity in the Old Testament. The Hebrews...Israelites...Jews did not know of or believe in the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament period nor do they believe in the Holy Spirit today. Now Yahweh has a Spirit that is Holy, that the Jews understand

The word prophecy appears 6 times in the Old Testament and prophecies are identified as such.



Except for....
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Call me traditional but....a religion that makes God out to be monstrous puppet master and is responsible for leading people to hell is going to end with a fiery hell as a chapel.

Calvinism is a theological orientation, not a denomination or organization, your not going to find a church called the Calvinist Church of _______. Calvinist are known to be infiltrators and many Protestant denominations are concerned with the corruption.
For example...
In the Southern Baptist Convention, the country’s largest Protestant denomination, the rise of Calvinism has provoked discord. In a 2012 poll of 1,066 Southern Baptist pastors conducted by Life Way Research, a nonprofit group associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, 30 percent considered their churches Calvinist — while twice as many were concerned “about the impact of Calvinism.”

I consider Calvinism as evil and I am not alone. Most of these anti-Calvinist posters I send you are easily found on internet....the world knows. There is a virtual smorgasbord of Protestant denominations to choose from....What is the interest and driving force behind people choosing a religion that blasphemes God, does not make sense, and leads people to hell. And that is the point I keep making, we can not see Satan, but you can see his footprints, and his intent.

Would you please explain what is unBiblical about Calvinism. I am not familiar with it.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

many Protestant denominations are concerned with the corruption

Really? Many Protestant denominations are Severely DIVIDED Over water baptism!
I highly DOUBT they are Concerned...

"Divider" Poll 13 Bible baptisms

 

[Grailhunter]

Would you please explain what is unBiblical about Calvinism. I am not familiar with it.

Of course you can find it on the internet.
Predestination and clairvoyance are powers of God. But the Calvinists use the existence of it to suggest all of reality is a puppet show. To determine who will be saved and unsaved before creation completely nullifies Judgment day and is in contradiction of all the scriptures that reference it, including a good part of revelation.

Blasphemy is another issue...God is not a monstrous puppet master and anyone that is saved is the elect.

Of course it fails on several logical levels....what purpose would it serve? The only thing it would really accomplish is sin and Millenniums of misery and death...for no useful purpose or meaning. if you are forced to do good or have faith...it is not to your credit and if you are forced to sin, it is not your fault. Then in the end all you have is puppets in heaven and hell. God is eternal, a puppet show would be a petty boring thing to watch.

 

[Grailhunter]

Really? Many Protestant denominations are Severely DIVIDED Over water baptism!
I highly DOUBT they are Concerned...

All you have to do is look it up on the internet. Several denominations are concerned over the infiltration of Calvinism.

 

[robert derrick]

Elaborate on your point(s) It is a good discussion.
The primary sin that unbelievers make is that they do not believe in Christ.
On the other hand there are a few very moral religions around the world.
Morality is part of the Christian walk with Christ, but as everyone knows, morality is not what saves us. Preaching to the choir here.
But I think I will disagree with you that all people do not have free will. Without free will all of reality becomes a puppet show, no real point. I am not saying that you do not believe in free-will as a whole.

The Bible says....
2nd Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
And it also says that....
1st Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people...
1st Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
And then
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

God the Father does draw us to Christ and Christ does call us, but not all will accept, nor are they forced. But God the Father and God the Son both wants all of us to be saved. God the Father created Man to have a relationship with and from that creation all of mankind was called. But because of free-will not all will accept the call. Any member of the Trinity can put it in a man's heart to seek God. But God has no interest in having a relationship with puppets.

But I think I will disagree with you that all people do not have free will.

The difference is between free will of any human being on earth, and the freedom and liberty of the will of God to choose to serve sin or God.

Only believers of Jesus have that freedom of will to choose: it is the faith and the will of Jesus we now have. Unbelievers have no such freedom and will, because they have no such power of God abiding in them by birth to choose to serve God, which is not possible without the grace, faith, salvation, and Spirit of God.

Unbelievers have no free will pertaining to sin: they will sin. It is there nature to do so, and they cannot change that by power of their own will.

Believers are changed by God's grace, who's will we now have power of God to both choose and to do.

It is a two-edged sword: Now that we have power to choose between sin and God, we are now held more accountable to God for that decision, if we choose to sin and transgress His Word.

The difference between good sinners, that do choose to do good and love their neighbors, and saints that ought choose to do good and love our neighbors, is that sinners cannot choose not to sin and fulfill the righteousness of God, which can only be by faith of Jesus.

Christians therefore are the only ones on earth with that free will to choose sin or God, even as Adam once had, and choose transgression, which Jesus had and choose God, and His people now have in Him to choose to walk with the 2nd Adam, and not transgress after the similitude of 1st Adam's transgression.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Because salvation is not for all. Many are called but few are chosen.

Theology 101: The reason they are not chosen is due to their lack of faith and refusal to repent of evil. God has predetermined that those whose stubborn, hardened hearts refuse His gift of salvation must suffer the consequences but has not predetermined their reprobation. To do so would be unjust and tyrannical, a violation of His character.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Mat 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

This repeats an earier ignored post regarding the determining factor of human choice:

Isa 66:1-4 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest? (2) For all those things My hand has made, And all those things exist," Says the LORD. "But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, And who trembles at My word. (3) "He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog's neck; He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine's blood; He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, (4) So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

 

[robert derrick]

Elaborate on your point(s) It is a good discussion.
The primary sin that unbelievers make is that they do not believe in Christ.
On the other hand there are a few very moral religions around the world.
Morality is part of the Christian walk with Christ, but as everyone knows, morality is not what saves us. Preaching to the choir here.
But I think I will disagree with you that all people do not have free will. Without free will all of reality becomes a puppet show, no real point. I am not saying that you do not believe in free-will as a whole.

The Bible says....
2nd Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
And it also says that....
1st Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people...
1st Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
And then
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

God the Father does draw us to Christ and Christ does call us, but not all will accept, nor are they forced. But God the Father and God the Son both wants all of us to be saved. God the Father created Man to have a relationship with and from that creation all of mankind was called. But because of free-will not all will accept the call. Any member of the Trinity can put it in a man's heart to seek God. But God has no interest in having a relationship with puppets.

The primary sin that unbelievers make is that they do not believe in Christ.

True, all have been concluded in unbelief at the cross. And Adam's transgression was due to unbelief: He knew the commandment and the transgression, when he did it, but he did not believe God, when He said: Thou shalt surely die.

He was truly a coward, when he let Eve go first, to watch and see if it was so. He may not have even believed God with his dying breath, that He was going to let him die back into the dust.

He may have thought he was so important to God as the man Adam, that God needed him to stay alive.

That may be why he didn't confess and repent, when God drove him fromt he garden. God doesn't drive anyone away who confesses from the heart for forgiveness of sins.

 

[JunChosen]

I am going to start charging for theological lessons....[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but you don't have any means or knowledge where you can charge for theological lessons, let alone give them out for free.

The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is not identified as an entity in the Old Testament

Sorry to have to enlighten you once again, master of theology. Already in Genesis 1: 1 we find that the word "God" is the Hebrew plural word "Elohim." Meaning there are at least three different persons who shared in the creation of the world. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

You see, in the Hebrew language there are at least three numbers:
1) Singular means one number.
2) Dual means two.
3) Plural means three or more numbers.

In the English language there are only two numbers:
1) Singular means one number.
2) Plural means two or more numbers.

Call me traditional but....a religion that makes God out to be monstrous puppet master

God forbid! Is not God sovereign in all things? Can a pot say to the potter, "why has thou made me thus? Is not the Potter sovereign to mold the pot as He sees fit?

[QUOTE="Grailhunter, post: 1085242, member: 8260"]I consider Calvinism as evil and I am not alone. Most of these anti-Calvinist posters I send you are easily found on internet....

You do not understand nor have the knowledge what Calvin and the reformists have done in regards to understanding salvation, and many other doctrine of Scripture.

You are right most of these anti-Calvinist posters can be found in the internet along with many other wrong doctrines. But did you know that the internet is the greatest invention that is being utilized by Satan? LOL.

To God Be The Glory

 

[kcnalp]

Of course you can find it on the internet.
Predestination and clairvoyance are powers of God. But the Calvinists use the existence of it to suggest all of reality is a puppet show. To determine who will be saved and unsaved before creation completely nullifies Judgment day and is in contradiction of all the scriptures that reference it, including a good part of revelation.

Blasphemy is another issue...God is not a monstrous puppet master and anyone that is saved is the elect.

Of course it fails on several logical levels....what purpose would it serve? The only thing it would really accomplish is sin and Millenniums of misery and death...for no useful purpose or meaning. if you are forced to do good or have faith...it is not to your credit and if you are forced to sin, it is not your fault. Then in the end all you have is puppets in heaven and hell. God is eternal, a puppet show would be a petty boring thing to watch.

Sounds quite complex. Thanks

Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV)
13 God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

 

[Grailhunter]

But I think I will disagree with you that all people do not have free will.

The difference is between free will of any human being on earth, and the freedom and liberty of the will of God to choose to serve sin or God.

Only believers of Jesus have that freedom of will to choose: it is the faith and the will of Jesus we now have. Unbelievers have no such freedom and will, because they have no such power of God abiding in them by birth to choose to serve God, which is not possible without the grace, faith, salvation, and Spirit of God.

Unbelievers have no free will pertaining to sin: they will sin. It is there nature to do so, and they cannot change that by power of their own will.

Believers are changed by God's grace, who's will we now have power of God to both choose and to do.

It is a two-edged sword: Now that we have power to choose between sin and God, we are now held more accountable to God for that decision, if we choose to sin and transgress His Word.

The difference between good sinners, that do choose to do good and love their neighbors, and saints that ought choose to do good and love our neighbors, is that sinners cannot choose not to sin and fulfill the righteousness of God, which can only be by faith of Jesus.

Christians therefore are the only ones on earth with that free will to choose sin or God, even as Adam once had, and choose transgression, which Jesus had and choose God, and His people now have in Him to choose to walk with the 2nd Adam, and not transgress after the similitude of 1st Adam's transgression.

Well then we disagree. Welcome to my world. In order to be multi-denominational I have to strike a middle of the road with whom I decide to fellowship with. I will fellowship with you.

 

[Grailhunter]

The primary sin that unbelievers make is that they do not believe in Christ.

True, all have been concluded in unbelief at the cross. And Adam's transgression was due to unbelief: He knew the commandment and the transgression, when he did it, but he did not believe God, when He said: Thou shalt surely die.

He was truly a coward, when he let Eve go first, to watch and see if it was so. He may not have even believed God with his dying breath, that He was going to let him die back into the dust.

He may have thought he was so important to God as the man Adam, that God needed him to stay alive.

That may be why he didn't confess and repent, when God drove him fromt he garden. God doesn't drive anyone away who confesses from the heart for forgiveness of sins.

Well, it is a deep topic. Adam and Eve were out of their league. There has always been disagreement on whose fault it was. For a long time Eve took the brunt of the blame and of course Adam. But some believe that, that is why women were treated like they were in the Old Testament. Adam did not die when he ate the fruit, Adam and Eve began to age after they left the Paradise of Delights. Adams curse was more or less a factor of leaving Paradise. Part of Eve's curse was that her husband would rule over her. But there are some scholars that believe the coup de grâce was when Adam blamed it all on the woman that God had given him...effectively blame it on God.

 

[Grailhunter]

You do not understand nor have the knowledge what Calvin and the reformists have done in regards to understanding salvation, and many other doctrine of Scripture.

Nope, I have more understanding. John Calvin, St. Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas had their own personal mental issues. They all lead many down the wrong road.

You are right most of these anti-Calvinist posters can be found in the internet along with many other wrong doctrines. But did you know that the internet is the greatest invention that is being utilized by Satan? LOL.

There is no right for blaspheming God.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Adam did not die when he ate the fruit, Adam and Eve began to age after they left the Paradise of Delights.

I recall telling my Childrens' Bible Class that if Adam & Eve had refrained from eating the fruit of the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, and remained obedient to God's instructions, they would still be alive today.

Imagine their struggle to get their heads around that truth as they responded with things like: "No way! They would've had heart attacks and stuff by now".

 

[Grailhunter]

I recall telling my Childrens' Bible Class that if Adam & Eve had refrained from eating the fruit of the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, and remained obedient to God's instructions, they would still be alive today.

Imagine their struggle to get their heads around that truth as they responded with things like: "No way! They would've had heart attacks and stuff by now".

We call it....the Bible calls it, the knowledge of Good and evil....some say that is a mouthful.

 

[Stumpmaster]

We call it....the Bible calls it, the knowledge of Good and evil....some say that is a mouthful.

Yes, it is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because eating of its fruit immediately gave Adam and Eve "experiential" knowledge of both coexisting paradigms, the good being their prior obedience to God's instruction. and the evil being their disobedience.

 

[Cooper]

I recall telling my Childrens' Bible Class that if Adam & Eve had refrained from eating the fruit of the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, and remained obedient to God's instructions, they would still be alive today.

Imagine their struggle to get their heads around that truth as they responded with things like: "No way! They would've had heart attacks and stuff by now".

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say they would still be alive today spiritually?
.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say they would still be alive today spiritually?
.

Hi Cooper,
Scripture attributes physical death to the fall of Adam and reconciliation to the physical death of Christ.

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—


God saw that all His Creation was good. Death, both physical and spiritual is God's enemy, so not part of Creation pre-fall when God saw that everything was good. The first animal to die was the one God killed to provide coverings for Adam and Eve, a prefiguring of the physical death of Christ to redeem His People and His Creation from the curse of death.