Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[Cooper]

Hi Cooper,
Scripture attributes physical death to the fall of Adam and reconciliation to the physical death of Christ.

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—


God saw that all His Creation was good. Death, both physical and spiritual is God's enemy, so not part of Creation pre-fall when God saw that everything was good. The first animal to die was the one God killed to provide coverings for Adam and Eve, a prefiguring of the physical death of Christ to redeem His People and His Creation from the curse of death.

In context, sin and death in the same sentence relates to spiritual death.
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[Stumpmaster]

In context, sin and death in the same sentence relates to spiritual death.
.

And physical death, requiring physical sacrifice to atone for sin, otherwise the requirement of physical death for redemption from sin is nonsensical.

Heb 9:11-15 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. (12) Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. (13) For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, (14) how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (15) And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[Cooper]

And physical death, requiring physical sacrifice to atone for sin, otherwise the requirement of physical death for redemption from sin is nonsensical.

Heb 9:11-15 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. (12) Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. (13) For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, (14) how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (15) And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Adam never died for the redemption of sins. That was the work of the second Adam. The First Adam lived a normal life span for those times and had several children including girls. He continued to live a normal physical life but was separated eternally from the presence of God, that being the second death for human kind.
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[JunChosen]

Theology 101: The reason they are not chosen is due to their lack of faith and refusal to repent of evil.

No! Here is Theology 101: Here is a king who proclaimed that everyone of his subjects should obey him and his laws, but the people of the land rebelled. What do you supposed the king did? That's right he put every one in the dungeon.

Then he hears of mercies

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Mat 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

Isa 66:1-4 Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, (4) So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

 

[robert derrick]

Well then we disagree. Welcome to my world. In order to be multi-denominational I have to strike a middle of the road with whom I decide to fellowship with. I will fellowship with you.

How do you disagree

 

[robert derrick]

Well, it is a deep topic. Adam and Eve were out of their league. There has always been disagreement on whose fault it was. For a long time Eve took the brunt of the blame and of course Adam. But some believe that, that is why women were treated like they were in the Old Testament. Adam did not die when he ate the fruit, Adam and Eve began to age after they left the Paradise of Delights. Adams curse was more or less a factor of leaving Paradise. Part of Eve's curse was that her husband would rule over her. But there are some scholars that believe the coup de grâce was when Adam blamed it all on the woman that God had given him...effectively blame it on God.

True, Adam was a coward and a false accuser. Even being deceived in the transgression was less guilty that Adam, who knew exactly what they were doing.

When they transgressed, they were no longer dead to sin. They were no longer 'alive', when the commandment came to them, when God confronted them personally about it:

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

They were no longer living souls by the breath of God within them. They made themselves mortal sinners in corruptible flesh. They corrupted the blood that had been uncorrupted from the beginning, when God breathed into them.

Jesus the 2nd Adam had this one thing in common with Adam: He came into the world with the uncorrupted blood, wherein is eternal life. Unlike Adam, He did not sin, and so, when He died on the cross and is resurrected, He now has the incorruptible blood for us all.

 

[Grailhunter]

If a person is not a Christian....that is a sin....it is also a choice.
If a person is not a Christian and is morale for whatever reason...that is choice...still a sin for not being a Christian.
Morality does not constitute salvation. A person does have the free-will not to sin but it is a physical, no points in the spiritual, but belief in Christ and morality leads to heaven.
The question is, how do they know morality? That is where the debate is at.
Then the ironic point is that some have believed in Christ and are saved, but do not believe in morality. That is another choice which is the issue presented in this thread.

 

[Grailhunter]

When they transgressed, they were no longer dead to sin. They were no longer 'alive', when the commandment came to them, when God confronted them personally about it:

It is vague story and more can be speculated than can be known. Their exact physical and spiritual status and existence is not well defined. Alive? Was their physical and spiritual existence changed the instant they eat the fruit....eating the fruit that is another issue, was it metaphoric. Or were they changed when they left Paradise? I am not suggesting either one conclusively.

Jesus the 2nd Adam had this one thing in common with Adam: He came into the world with the uncorrupted blood, wherein is eternal life. Unlike Adam, He did not sin, and so, when He died on the cross and is resurrected, He now has the incorruptible blood for us all.

Incorruptible blood? Not sure about that one. Were they incorruptible due to their innocence? Another discussion. The correlation between Adam and Yeshua is an interesting topic.

 

[robert derrick]

It is vague story and more can be speculated than can be known. Their exact physical and spiritual status and existence is not well defined. Alive? Was their physical and spiritual existence changed the instant they eat the fruit....eating the fruit that is another issue, was it metaphoric. Or were they changed when they left Paradise? I am not suggesting either one conclusively.



Incorruptible blood? Not sure about that one. Were they incorruptible due to their innocence? Another discussion. The correlation between Adam and Yeshua is an interesting topic.

I take things literally, unless Scripture says otherwise. We can allegorize things for learning and instruction, such as the Red Sea parting, walking across on dry ground, and being clean escaped from our adversaries of sin, but it still happened physically as described.

I quoted the Scripture to show how one being alive without the law, and then when the commandment comes to condemn our transgression: which comes by God to our minds and hearts, then we die.

And so, they were alive, until they transgressed, and they were dead once God confronted them. They were no longer living souls, which is only by breath and Spirit of God.

They separated themselves from God by their transgression, no longer having the Spirit. (Is 59:2)(Jude 19)

They had uncorrupted blood by birth of God (Adam was the son of God), which they corrupted by sin. All life is in the blood, and so they had everlasting life in their uncorrupted blood, given by the Spirit breathed in them. That corrupted blood and sin nature and death passed on to all by flesh, except to Jesus, who came down from heaven born of a woman by the Spirit, with His own uncorrupted blood as He gave to Adam, to be the 2nd Adam.

Jesus chose not to transgress: He chose the Father in all things. His blood on earth remained uncorrupted to the end, and so now we have the incorruptible blood of the Lamb of God available to all them that believe, with the eternal life of Christ therein:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

That is not symbology, but the truth when born of the Spirit and the seed of God: our inner man and new creature created after His likeness drink His blood, which is drink indeed, with life indeed therein.

His blood is now incorruptible, because there is no more trial for sin, because He did fulfill the law in death on the cross, so that His uncorrupted blood will remain so forever: it is was uncorrupted, and is now incorruptible.

That was the purpose of the commandment in the garden, to try Adam. And so are we also tried in the trial of our faith, not to transgress after the similitude of Adam, but to walk in the steps of the 2nd Adam, choosing to yield ourselves to God and Christ, not to obey the lust of the flesh, but to keep the faith of Jesus and obey His Word only to the end.

 

[JunChosen]

Theology 101: The reason they are not chosen is due to their lack of faith and refusal to repent of evil.

No! Here is Theology 101: Here is a king who wrote an edict that proclaimed that everyone of his subjects should obey him and his laws, but the people of the land rebelled. What do you supposed the king would d? That's right throw every one in the dungeon.

Then he hears cries for mercy. The king being full of love and grace for his subjects went down to the dungeon and began to pick a person here and a person there and told the guards to set free all the people that he had selected / elected.

Likewise, in order for God [King] to set free His elect [subjects] He had to pay a tremendous price by sending His only Son to die on the cross whereby to give the elect eternal life. THIS IS THEOLOGY 101!!!

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

What promise? answer is found in verses 3 and 4
Please note the key words in verse 9, [any] and [all] does not speak each and every person as in Luke 2:3, rather hell is going to be heavily be populated for as in Adam ALL die. Theology 101.

Mat 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

Because of the hardness of heart! Theology 101.

Isa 66:1-4 Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, (4) So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

Only those whom God have elected and chosen will hear and answer the call. Theology 101.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

Nope, I have more understanding. John Calvin, St. Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas had their own personal mental issues. They all lead many down the wrong road.

Says you that you have more understanding than Calvin, Augustine, and Aquinas. All you do in these forums is condemn for you have no knowledge of Scripture.

There is no right for blaspheming God.

Rather there are no one who can blaspheme God and not die!

To God Be The Glory

 

[kcnalp]

Says you that you have more understanding than Calvin, Augustine, and Aquinas. All you do in these forums is condemn for you have no knowledge of Scripture.



Rather there are no one who can blaspheme God and not die!

To God Be The Glory

Aren't you the one who denies the eternal fire that Jesus taught?

 

[JunChosen]

I take things literally, unless Scripture says otherwise.

False statement! Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. A parable is an earth story with a heavenly meaning, therefore this makes the whole Bible a parable, and some have said and I quote,"The Bible is the greatest story ever told."

To God Be The Glory

 

[Grailhunter]

I take things literally, unless Scripture says otherwise

No you don't. And my advice is that you do not unless it makes sense in the practical and when you put it in motion. And you better stay out of Hebrews.

I quoted the Scripture to show how one being alive without the law, and then when the commandment comes to condemn our transgression: which comes by God to our minds and hearts, then we die.

It would be a good discussion but Adam and Eve were not under the Mosaic Law.

They were no longer living souls, which is only by breath and Spirit of God. They separated themselves from God by their transgression, no longer having the Spirit

I disagree on them not being living souls.

They had uncorrupted blood by birth of God (Adam was the son of God),

We are all sons of God in sense but Adam was a created being.

All life is in the blood, and so they had everlasting life in their uncorrupted blood, given by the Spirit breathed in them. That corrupted blood and sin nature and death passed on to all by flesh, except to Jesus, who came down from heaven born of a woman by the Spirit, with His own uncorrupted blood as He gave to Adam, to be the 2nd Adam.

Changes in the blood is not really something that could be specifically defined in the Bible....analogies aside, their not going to get into the DNA.

Jesus chose not to transgress: He chose the Father in all things. His blood on earth remained uncorrupted to the end, and so now we have the incorruptible blood of the Lamb of God available to all them that believe, with the eternal life of Christ therein:

We do not have a gauge, meter, or test for incorruptible blood. On the other hand the spiritual and physical aspect of Christ's blood are very real and there effects are noted in the scriptures and tradition.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

This is an absolute fact.

That is not symbiology, but the truth when born of the Spirit and the seed of God:

Spirit and seed of God....I believe this very much.

That was the purpose of the commandment in the garden, to try Adam. And so are we also tried in the trial of our faith, not to transgress after the similitude of Adam, but to walk in the steps of the 2nd Adam, choosing to yield ourselves to God and Christ, not to obey the lust of the flesh, but to keep the faith of Jesus and obey His Word only to the end.

Ding ding! Right on!

 

[Grailhunter]

Says you that you have more understanding than Calvin, Augustine, and Aquinas. All you do in these forums is condemn for you have no knowledge of Scripture.



Rather there are no one who can blaspheme God and not die!

To God Be The Glory

And yet you stand for a religion the blaspheme God.

 

[JunChosen]

And yet you stand for a religion the blaspheme God.

You don't even know what I believe in. So tell me what part of my beliefs do you not understand or condemn?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Grailhunter]

You don't even know what I believe in. So tell me what part of my beliefs do you not understand or condemn?

To God Be The Glory

I am going to put you in the Calvinist column. Knowing that there are personal variations to that religion. No matter what religion you are, belief control in the pews is a pipe dream. So you would have to tell me what you do not believe in Calvinism.

 

[kcnalp]

False statement! Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. A parable is an earth story with a heavenly meaning, therefore this makes the whole Bible a parable, and some have said and I quote,"The Bible is the greatest story ever told."

To God Be The Glory

The Bible is a "story" to you? No wonder you deny the eternal fire!

 

[Grailhunter]

I take things literally, unless Scripture says otherwise. We can allegorize things for learning and instruction, such as the Red Sea parting, walking across on dry ground, and being clean escaped from our adversaries of sin, but it still happened physically as described.

I quoted the Scripture to show how one being alive without the law, and then when the commandment comes to condemn our transgression: which comes by God to our minds and hearts, then we die.

And so, they were alive, until they transgressed, and they were dead once God confronted them. They were no longer living souls, which is only by breath and Spirit of God.

They separated themselves from God by their transgression, no longer having the Spirit. (Is 59:2)(Jude 19)

They had uncorrupted blood by birth of God (Adam was the son of God), which they corrupted by sin. All life is in the blood, and so they had everlasting life in their uncorrupted blood, given by the Spirit breathed in them. That corrupted blood and sin nature and death passed on to all by flesh, except to Jesus, who came down from heaven born of a woman by the Spirit, with His own uncorrupted blood as He gave to Adam, to be the 2nd Adam.

Jesus chose not to transgress: He chose the Father in all things. His blood on earth remained uncorrupted to the end, and so now we have the incorruptible blood of the Lamb of God available to all them that believe, with the eternal life of Christ therein:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

That is not symbology, but the truth when born of the Spirit and the seed of God: our inner man and new creature created after His likeness drink His blood, which is drink indeed, with life indeed therein.

His blood is now incorruptible, because there is no more trial for sin, because He did fulfill the law in death on the cross, so that His uncorrupted blood will remain so forever: it is was uncorrupted, and is now incorruptible.

That was the purpose of the commandment in the garden, to try Adam. And so are we also tried in the trial of our faith, not to transgress after the similitude of Adam, but to walk in the steps of the 2nd Adam, choosing to yield ourselves to God and Christ, not to obey the lust of the flesh, but to keep the faith of Jesus and obey His Word only to the end.

Where did ya go?

 

[JunChosen]

So you would have to tell me what you do not believe in Calvinism.

I beg your pardon. You condemn me for being a Calvinist and it is I who must tell you what I do not believe in Calvinism?

Well for starters, it is for you to find out and for me to know. LOL.

To God Be The Glory