Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[JesusFan1]

And so, OSAS only obeys when they feel like it.

And so, when OSAS does sin and doesn't obey, it's because they don't 'feel the love' and thanksgiving to God.

OSAS only obeys when they feel like, and so never obey, when you don't feel like it.

Hypocrisy 101.

Are we saved by Grace alone, or buy a mixture of both grace and the law?

 

[JesusFan1]

Give it up, JF1. We passed the point long ago where we're just feeding the monster. The funny thing is, "OSAS" is not really who Robert says they are at all. His characterizations of who they are and what they believe, and therefore his His whole diatribe and ranting and raving, is horribly misdirected.

You know, Paul talks about those still in rebellion against God, those who have exchanged the truth for a lie and worship the creature rather than the Creator, in Romans 1. As a result of their doing this, God has given them up to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, to dishonorable passions. Now, I'm not saying anyone here has done that. But I am saying that if Robert is just going to keep going with this nonsense (and obviously he is), then just... let him go. Let it go. You and I, though, and others like us, we can praise the Lord all the more because of ~ as Paul calls it in Ephesians 1:4 ~ His glorious grace. It is amazing, you know.

Grace and peace to you.

Just seems that those who hold as he does do not see salvation as an easy yoke, but as a heavy burden of still trying to keep the law and merit salvation!

 

[robert derrick]

you definitely misunderstand calvinism. We dont think we’re superior if chosen. And we are very humble i find. One of the interesting things about the topic of calvinism that intrigues me, is why are people so against it?

I’m an oddity around here. I believe that calvinism is Biblical. I believe calvin furthered our understanding of salvation, although he did write about much more. But i’m also, currently, not of the elect. I’m not saved. But calvinism has shown me to not be saved. Im not deceived like so many are. My view of who is part of the elect is while i’m not today, my turn could come the next day, or next hour. We dont know who is part of the elect, and so we never judge others.

I’m an oddity around here. But i’m also, currently, not of the elect. I’m not saved. i willfully, habitually commit the same sin daily, if not hourly.

And so here we have it.

I have been greatly misguided by wrongly thinking you believe yourself saved, while teaching such insane things about salvation, when actually you never claimed to be saved and now show you are not.

Not it all makes since. You are exactly what you have appeared to be: an unsaved lifelong sinner.

You have not been angered by my rejection of your teaching, that you believe is Bible, but you have been angered by my rejection of Calvin, that you say is Bible: you've been defending Calvin, not your belief in Scripture!

The problem of course is, I was so misguided about you, because you have sounded no different from OSAS.

The only difference between you and OSAS is that you know you are not saved, while they delusionally think themselves to be saved.

You certainly are a rare oddity in that regard. And frankly, I now have more respect for your honesty, than their hypocrisy.

So:
1. I believe that calvinism is Biblical.

How do you know Calvin is teaching the truth of Scripture, since not being saved with the renewed mind of Christ by the Spirit of truth, you can't know the truth of Scripture itself?

I.e. how can you know anything is biblical, when you can't know what is biblical without being born of the Spirit of truth?

Also, how then can you know what is not biblical and is therefore heretical?

Or, a heretic to you, is just some that does not believe Calvin's teaching?

2. One of the interesting things about the topic of calvinism that intrigues me, is why are people so against it?

Obviously for now, Calvin is your bible, but why have you chosen him?

Is it because Calvin teaches a way to salvation that is based solely upon re-election, so that you have no responsibility nor choice in the matter?

You simply wait to see if you indeed are one of them some time down the road?

In the meantime, you just go on doing what unsaved sinners do, (Which is what OSAS saved sinners do), despite having heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, but without faith to believe and obey Him?

Since you talk and live like them, what makes you think you are not already a saved life long sinner, and elect, like them?

3. my turn could come the next day, or next hour.

How will that happen? What will happen? What are you looking for to know when it happens? Will you all of a sudden find the faith of Jesus in your heart, with the great desire to love and obey Him?

Is it that as a unsaved sinner, you read and agree and believe Calvin, while not yet believing Jesus unto salvation?

You are still waiting to believe Jesus according to Calvin's predetermination of you, and if not, then you simply weren't one of the predetermined?

If one day you do find yourself believing Jesus and are one of the elect, will you also begin to obey Jesus and cease live like one of the unsaved, and possibly never elect, that you are now?

2. and so we never judge others.

'We' being unsaved sinners? Or 'we' being Calvin believers?

And yet, you rightly judge yourself an unsaved sinner by your ongoing daily sins, but you will not righteously judge others the same?

Or do you not base being unsaved on any righteous judgment against living like it?

Do you not judge any unsaved sinner such as yourself, as definitely not being one of the pre-elect, because the day may still come, when you find out you are, or someone else becomes one?

How will you or any other know? Will their confession be "I now know I am elect?" Why? Because they believe it? Why don't you just go ahead and believe now you are also one of he elect. After all, as I point out, you already talk and live like them.

Do you really think your oddity is that you're the only of the Calvinists here, who is still waiting to believe they are elect like others?

Are you waiting and hoping to go from being an unsaved Calvin believer, to being an elect OSAS member??


Yes, you are not only an oddity, but also most fascinating. Now let's see just how far your honesty goes.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I’m an oddity around here. But i’m also, currently, not of the elect. I’m not saved. i willfully, habitually commit the same sin daily, if not hourly.

And so here we have it.

I have been greatly misguided by wrongly thinking you believe yourself saved, while teaching such insane things about salvation, when actually you never claimed to be saved and now show you are not.

Not it all makes since. You are exactly what you have appeared to be: an unsaved lifelong sinner.

You have not been angered by my rejection of your teaching, that you believe is Bible, but you have been angered by my rejection of Calvin, that you say is Bible: you've been defending Calvin, not your belief in Scripture!

The problem of course is, I was so misguided about you, because you have sounded no different from OSAS.

The only difference between you and OSAS is that you know you are not saved, while they delusionally think themselves to be saved.

You certainly are a rare oddity in that regard. And frankly, I now have more respect for your honesty, than their hypocrisy.

So:
1. I believe that calvinism is Biblical.

How do you know Calvin is teaching the truth of Scripture, since not being saved with the renewed mind of Christ by the Spirit of truth, you can't know the truth of Scripture itself?

I.e. how can you know anything is biblical, when you can't know what is biblical without being born of the Spirit of truth?

Also, how then can you know what is not biblical and is therefore heretical?

Or, a heretic to you, is just some that does not believe Calvin's teaching?

2. One of the interesting things about the topic of calvinism that intrigues me, is why are people so against it?

Obviously for now, Calvin is your bible, but why have you chosen him?

Is it because Calvin teaches a way to salvation that is based solely upon re-election, so that you have no responsibility nor choice in the matter?

You simply wait to see if you indeed are one of them some time down the road?

In the meantime, you just go on doing what unsaved sinners do, (Which is what OSAS saved sinners do), despite having heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, but without faith to believe and obey Him?

Since you talk and live like them, what makes you think you are not already a saved life long sinner, and elect, like them?

3. my turn could come the next day, or next hour.

How will that happen? What will happen? What are you looking for to know when it happens? Will you all of a sudden find the faith of Jesus in your heart, with the great desire to love and obey Him?

Is it that as a unsaved sinner, you read and agree and believe Calvin, while not yet believing Jesus unto salvation?

You are still waiting to believe Jesus according to Calvin's predetermination of you, and if not, then you simply weren't one of the predetermined?

If one day you do find yourself believing Jesus and are one of the elect, will you also begin to obey Jesus and cease live like one of the unsaved, and possibly never elect, that you are now?

2. and so we never judge others.

'We' being unsaved sinners? Or 'we' being Calvin believers?

And yet, you rightly judge yourself an unsaved sinner by your ongoing daily sins, but you will not righteously judge others the same?

Or do you not base being unsaved on any righteous judgment against living like it?

Do you not judge any unsaved sinner such as yourself, as definitely not being one of the pre-elect, because the day may still come, when you find out you are, or someone else becomes one?

How will you or any other know? Will their confession be "I now know I am elect?" Why? Because they believe it? Why don't you just go ahead and believe now you are also one of he elect. After all, as I point out, you already talk and live like them.

Do you really think your oddity is that you're the only of the Calvinists here, who is still waiting to believe they are elect like others?

Are you waiting and hoping to go from being an unsaved Calvin believer, to being an elect OSAS member??


Yes, you are not only an oddity, but also most fascinating. Now let's see just how far your honesty goes.

For starters, i do believe in Jesus and what He did for the elect. But that isnt what saves you, not entirely. I grew up in the church. Theres never been a moment where i didnt believe and then one day i did. I’ve always believed, i never had a reason not to.
In my research and understanding, there is NO difference between what Jesus said and calvin wrote. Calvin merely wrote down what the apostles and Jesus said, from the 27 books of the NT, and put them into 5 quick points. Calvinism is Biblical not because calvin said it, but because its from the word of God.
How will i know that i can get saved?? Thats been an interesting question, the likes of me going to new churches, talking to different pastors, and despite being told by those pastors that i am indeed saved, i know 1 john well enough to know that anyone who practices sin, isnt saved. Theres a difference between falling in sin, and practicing sin. When my addiction is beaten, then i can look to getting saved.
Your fanaticism about OSAS makes no sense to me. Either you think everyone is a false convert, or you put too much pride in your own abilities. Satan is stronger than you think. He got eve to question God, what makes you think you can resist him?

 

[PinSeeker]

For starters, i do believe in Jesus and what He did for the elect. But that isnt what saves you, not entirely.

Well, yes, but only in the sense that what He did was sufficient to accomplish the salvation of all. And with regard to salvation itself, we are saved in that our salvation, which is a work of God (by the will of the Father and the work of the Holy Spirit because of the sacrifice of the Son on the cross) and is eternally secure in Christ...

we have been "caused (us) to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us)" (1 Peter 1:4)​

...but we are also being saved in that God's work of salvation will not be complete until the day of Christ...

our salvation is "ready to be revealed in the last time," (1 Peter 1:5)​

This is the simultaneous "now and not yet" of the Gospel. But yes, Jesus Himself, to His disciples in answer to their question, "Who then can be saved?", says, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

I know 1 John well enough to know that anyone who practices sin, isn't saved. There's a difference between falling in sin, and practicing sin. When my addiction is beaten, then i can look to getting saved.

Absolutely correct.

How will i know that i can get saved?? That's been an interesting question, the likes of me going to new churches, talking to different pastors, and despite being told by those pastors that i am indeed saved...

Well, you struggle with assurance of salvation, which all of us do to some degree, for several reasons. But let me ask, do you worry at least a bit, or are your troubled at least somewhat that you may not be saved? Or put another way, do you know your need for salvation in Christ, to be in Him, but just struggle within yourself over whether you are in Christ or not? If this is the case, I would suggest to you that this struggle in you is proof that you are in Christ, that you are saved ~ and at the same time, will be saved Christ's return.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically.Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

And so, OSAS isn't the exact teaching of Calvin's false predestination of who.

Calvin still taught that in order for the prechosen to become chosen, they must first believe, and they have choice to do so or not: Which contradicts His false view of God's Sovereign will.

If souls have a choice in the matter, then His Sovereign prechoosing can be rejected by man: His omnipotence to choose who before hand is made impotent by any choosing not to believe Him.

God by omnipotence prechoosing who cannot allow for free will of any to choose contrary to God's prechoosing.

God certainly could have chosen to do so, but He didn't, because Scripture confirmed we all are given free will to choose for ourselves:

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

The only question God has, that He has no reasonable explanation for is why any soul would choose death over life?

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

And so, Calvin's foolish error was trying to answer something God does not, and so came up with a twisted view of His Sovereign will and predestinating who, not just what.

 

[robert derrick]

The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically.Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

Since we see that Calvin tried to teach predestination of who, but also confirming the truth of destinating all souls to have free will to choose, we see that OSAS is Calvin's unintended perversion, that is twofold worse than his own.

OSAS rids itself of the obvious inconsistency of Calvin, by ridding any predestinated soul of free will: None choose to believe or not to believe at all. Faith only comes by predestined Sovereignty of God for who will and will not.

And so, they state plainly they have no choice in the matter, and so have no responsibility in the matter: they are not responsible for choice they make in this life, because they have no free will to do anything by choice: like a perverted Popeye, they just do as they do, and that's all that they do.

"God is Sovereign of all and Sovereignly chose me from the beginning, and I am just an humbly sinful flower of celebratory grace in His hands!"

The hippy-dippy flower children of filthy grace.

And of course their unchosen faith of God does not extend to unchosen obedience to God.

They are certainly predestined by Sovereign will of God alone to believe in Him, but they equally are certain they are not predestined by the same Sovereign will to obey Him.

The same omnipotent God predestinating to believe, did not include predestinating to obey.

How do they know? Because they believe they are predestined to believe, because they believe it, but they do not believe they are predestined to obey, because they do not obey Him.

Therefore, in order to retain their perverted view of God's omnipotence and Sovereign will, worse than Calvin's, they must believe He predestined them to believe, and predestined them to disobey, so that they are fulfilling all Sovereign will by believing in Him and by disobeying Him.

Well, God did say He creates evil.

The problem is that OSAS is not created by God nor by Calvin (At least not on purpose), but is created by him that delights in disobeying Him and celebrating his filthy grace to do it.

So, there is the true Calvinist, which is really wrong, and then there is OSAS, which is really really wrong.

 

[robert derrick]

Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

The only true somehow in God's Sovereign predestination is that of what is foreordained to do, with who will be drawn to Him, vs what is foreordained to do to them, who refuse to be drawn by Him: to be conformed to His image and righteousness or to be destroyed in ongoing unrighteous sins and trespassses.

What Calvin teaching clowns call a big 'mystery' of God, is actually the big mystery of them trying to reconcile their error with Scripture.

It's always easier just to be corrected by Scripture, rather than trying to complicate things further with some big 'mystery' that cannot be understood because it will not be corrected.

 

[JesusFan1]

For starters, i do believe in Jesus and what He did for the elect. But that isnt what saves you, not entirely. I grew up in the church. Theres never been a moment where i didnt believe and then one day i did. I’ve always believed, i never had a reason not to.
In my research and understanding, there is NO difference between what Jesus said and calvin wrote. Calvin merely wrote down what the apostles and Jesus said, from the 27 books of the NT, and put them into 5 quick points. Calvinism is Biblical not because calvin said it, but because its from the word of God.
How will i know that i can get saved?? Thats been an interesting question, the likes of me going to new churches, talking to different pastors, and despite being told by those pastors that i am indeed saved, i know 1 john well enough to know that anyone who practices sin, isnt saved. Theres a difference between falling in sin, and practicing sin. When my addiction is beaten, then i can look to getting saved.
Your fanaticism about OSAS makes no sense to me. Either you think everyone is a false convert, or you put too much pride in your own abilities. Satan is stronger than you think. He got eve to question God, what makes you think you can resist him?

Lord Jesus died for you just as you now are, come to Him to receive salvation and then have power over sin!

 

[JesusFan1]

Well, yes, but only in the sense that what He did was sufficient to accomplish the salvation of all. And with regard to salvation itself, we are saved in that our salvation, which is a work of God (by the will of the Father and the work of the Holy Spirit because of the sacrifice of the Son on the cross) and is eternally secure in Christ...

we have been "caused (us) to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us)" (1 Peter 1:4)​

...but we are also being saved in that God's work of salvation will not be complete until the day of Christ...

our salvation is "ready to be revealed in the last time," (1 Peter 1:5)​

This is the simultaneous "now and not yet" of the Gospel. But yes, Jesus Himself, to His disciples in answer to their question, "Who then can be saved?", says, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”


Absolutely correct.


Well, you struggle with assurance of salvation, which all of us do to some degree, for several reasons. But let me ask, do you worry at least a bit, or are your troubled at least somewhat that you may not be saved? Or put another way, do you know your need for salvation in Christ, to be in Him, but just struggle within yourself over whether you are in Christ or not? If this is the case, I would suggest to you that this struggle in you is proof that you are in Christ, that you are saved ~ and at the same time, will be saved Christ's return.

Grace and peace to you.

if we have to clean up our lives before can get saved, then we would all never get saved!