Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You said “IF you have "received" Gods Gift of Salvation...
Please explain "if, how, by what method", that Gift was (rather than OFFERED)...
BUT....FORCED upon, to, in you...
WITHOUT your agreement of consent.”

Salvation is not forced upon me by God in any way, shape or form. It was given me. How? He had quickened my spirit, enabling me to understand the gospel of Christ and the message of the cross, convicted me of sin, righteousness, and judgment, brought me to repent unto Him, giving me faith towards Jesus Christ, and trust in Him. And thanks be to God, He saved me! And that is by His grace, and not by anything that comes from me nor any that I have done.

OKAY...
So , (is this correct?) God has a Gift of Salvation..
You did not have to agree to receive His gift, nor was it forced upon you (given you without your consent)....but you received His gift...
Without ever agreeing... eh?

Because salvation is not an offer by God, there is not the matter of accepting any offer. As I said God freely gave me His grace of salvation. As to how, I already told you. He did not ask me if I want to me saved or not, nor asked me if I permit or allow Him to save me. Nothing of that sort. When He quickened my spirit so that I am enabled to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and the message of the cross, He did not ask me if I want and permit Him to quicken my spirit nor asked me if I want to understand the gospel. He just did. He also did not ask me if I want and permit Him to convict me of sin, of righteousness and judgment. He just did. He did not ask me if I want and allow Him to touch my heart and bring me to repentance unto Him. He just did. He also did not ask me if I want and allow Him to give me faith in Jesus Christ. He just did. Having done that all to me, I found myself wanting so much to believe in Him and in Jesus Christ, and so finally I found myself believing with all my heart, mind, and soul, freely and willingly. And I just knew I love Him more than anything else.

I became fully aware of Gods Gift of Salvation, and Called ON HIS NAME, and MADE A True Heartful Confession OF my Word being IN Agreement with the Lords Word, and Agreement to Accept His Offering....ACCORDING TO HIS WORD.

His OFFER....WAS "IF" I heartfully agreed...
"THEN" He would give His Offered Salvation TO ME.

THIS IS Gods TERMS...of HOW TO ACCEPT His OFFERING...BY YOUR WORD.
"IF"...
Required CONFESSION and Required BELIEF IN ONE HEART.

I was aware of my freewill to CHOOSE Him.

Josh 24;
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD,choose you this day whom ye will serve;

I was aware my choosing Him was by my word of heartfully Confessing TO HIM.

Heb 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I was Aware of His WARNING to BE SURE of my Agreeing.

2 Pet 1:
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Rom 10
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

I was Aware God would Verify that my Agreeing WAS TRUE or NOT.

Rev 2
[23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So ya....I am aware of WHO Offered Salvation IS God....His Offering was To me....I accepted His Offering According to HIS WAY...
Choosing Him, Calling on Him, Confessing with my Hearts Belief In Him, Sure of My Choice, Election, Calling unto Him...and IN Full Agreement WITH HIM.

Apparently...you made no choice, no calling, no confession, no agreeing....
Apparently....you simply have Gods Gift of Salvation....because it was made available BY God...

NOT what Scriture teaches.

I would only ask, please show scriptures that effectively shows God offering people salvation for their acceptance of refusal. Until then, I find no biblical basis for such a belief and teaching.

Josh.24 passage involves Israel. They already have knowledge of God and in fact, have experienced Him in so many ways. They were in fact called God’s chosen people, as God had chosen them from among the people of the world, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises. Joshua 24:15 was not an offer of salvation or a choice between being saved or not, but a choice between whom they will serve.

Hebrews 10, 2 Pet.1, Rom. 10, 1 Thes 1, Rev.2, all pertains to the Christian, who have knowledge of God and the gospel truth, and who have received Jesus Christ. They are believers already, presumed to all be true believers. So, what was written in those scriptures are not in any way, shape or form, an offer of salvation, but a telling and teaching of the things of the Spirit of God pertaining to their spiritual growth and life, and knowledge.

You said:

<<<So ya....I am aware of WHO Offered Salvation IS God....His Offering was To me....I accepted His Offering According to HIS WAY...
Choosing Him, Calling on Him, Confessing with my Hearts Belief In Him, Sure of My Choice, Election, Calling unto Him...and IN Full Agreement WITH HIM.

Apparently...you made no choice, no calling, no confession, no agreeing....
Apparently....you simply have Gods Gift of Salvation.>>>

In my case, God was the one who have chosen me, have foreknown me, predestined me, called me, justified me, and glorified. In other words, He saved me by His grace. That is why with all my heart, mind and soul, I know that only to Him rightfully belongs all glory, all praise, and all thanks!

Tong
R4036

 

[Kermos]

FALSE...

Gen 1:
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Regarding Genesis 1:27, the Word of God does not reveal precisely what "in the image of God" means. An example: "God is Spirit" (John 4:24), yet Adam was flesh (Genesis 2:21). For more example such as God knowing good and evil but Adam not knowing good and evil please see the original post.

Regarding Genesis 1:31, An inherently good Adam would have assuredly and absolutely excluded eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

BECAUSE an inherently good Adam would have acted in the good way of obedience to God's command (Genesis 2:16-17)

WITH the good way being God's Way (John 14:6)

YET "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)

AND it is written "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day" (Genesis 1:31)

BEHOLD that God saw the whole package, the complete creation, the "all" that He had made, that it was very good

BUT God did not specify how the aggregate (all) that He had made was very good therein

AND God did not specify any constituents of creation as being inherently good therein

AND God creating "all that He had made" for God in Jesus Christ to come to earth to save evil man is very good

SO with certainty, God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world is very good

IN other words, if Adam was inherently good, then he could not have eaten from the tree the knowledge of good and evil

BECAUSE it would have been impossible for an inherently good Adam to disobey God's command of not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

SINCE an inherently good Adam would have been the embodiment of obedience of God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

AND an inherently good Adam would have unquestionably refrained from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil without him having the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22)

THEREFORE an inherently good Adam would have done the opposite of good by eating of the tree the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6)

SO an inherently good Adam would have unavoidably avoided eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

BUT there is none righteous, not one (Psalm 143:2, Romans 3:10)

AND there is none who does good, there is not even one (Psalm 53:3, Romans 3:12)

SO there was no inherently good Adam


Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

I agree with you that the word “choice”, “obedience” and “disobedience” and “free will” are not used in the scriptures you referenced at in Genesis.

However I don’t agree with much, if not all, of your conclusions and line of reasoning there.

Now, Gen.2:16-17, is a command. I have to ask you, what does the commander (God) expects from him who is commanded?

Tong
R4022

The Word of God says "when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"' (Genesis 2:17) which is prophecy by God; therefore, God's prophecy therein indicates that God expects Adam to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam could not thwart God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (Job 42:2).

In reality, you do not agree with the Word of God because your heart adds "choice" and "free will" into the creation account (Genesis 1-3) where it does not exist.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

No you have not, wadr.

<<<You call evil good, and you call good evil.>>>

No I did not and never will.

Tong
R4023

I most certainly have proclaimed to you the Word of God unadulterated by evil men adding "choose" into the Word of God of the creation account (Genesis 1-3) where "choose" does not exist in order for evil men to steal God's exclusive glory in man's salvation in how such evil men contrast with as this post in this thread shows, God is the Benefactor exclusively in control of man's salvation while God's chosen persons are beneficiaries - "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the chosen, whom He chose, He shortened the days" (Mark 13:20).

You do not receive the Word of God Who says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)

The Word of God is good.

The Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

You claim you choose Jesus, so in your heart you call His words evil while at the same time calling your words good.

Therefore, you call evil good, and you call good evil.

It is written "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20).

In the referenced post I made to you, I wrote:

The word "choose" is not in 'and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"' (Genesis 2:16-17), so you are adding choice into the Word of God; furthermore, a command of God is obeyed or disobeyed, so an action occurs, not a choice without explicit expression in the command of God, but fruit occurs.

Your denial of adding "choose" to scripture is proven deception according to the very Word of God.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

A lot of words, but like wells without water.

I am looking forward to your response to my post #687 which until now you have not responded to. And it sure makes me wonder.

Tong
R4024

Either you are calling your words "wells without water" or you are calling Lord Jesus' words (John 14:6) "wells without water".

God had me respond to your post #687 way back at post #725.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Tong2020]

Either you are calling your words "wells without water" or you are calling Lord Jesus' words (John 14:6) "wells without water".

God had me respond to your post #687 way back at post #725.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

No, it’s clear whose words I was referring the figure as wells without water. Definitely not God’s words.

I will go then check out your post #725. Thanks.

Tong
R4037

 

[Kermos]

The "THING MOULDED"..."FORMED"...
IS THE BODY .
IS "FORMED" By God.
IS "FORMED" In the Fashion God Decides.
(One body, two arms, two legs, ten fingers, ten toes...Formed By God...
One body, one arm, three legs, conjoined twins....Formed By God...)
* Paul says: The FORMED BODY, is Formed BY God and Gods WILL
and NOT ACCORDING TO A MANS WILL...

Correct...NOT NEWS.

You introduce SALVATION of THAT BODY, IS ALSO ACCORDING to Gods WILL...

So What is YOUR point?
ACCORDING TO GodS WILL...
God SAVES "SOME BODY'S", but NOT "OTHER BODY'S"?

I address your question after the next paragraph. The question to you and the next paragraph is really quite simple.

Before I address your question, here's a question for you. Are you saying that God did not create every single human being?

Regarding the thing molded, Paul is talking about the whole person including mind, soul, and body.

According to Paul, the Potter, that is God, produces the vessels, that is persons (Romans 9:21).

Considering the Potter's reign over the vessels, Paul wrote "does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use" (Romans 9:21).

Considering "vessels of wrath", that is the unsaved, Paul wrote "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22).

Considering "vessels of mercy", that is the saved by God, Paul wrote "And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:23).

Considering "riches of His glory" (Romans 9:23) in this Paul conveys (1) God's salvation imparted to man, (2) God communing with man, (3) God displaying His Marvelous work of man saved from the wrath of God, and (4) Almighty God's control over the whole creation!

Considering "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will" (Romans 9:19), Paul addresses those questions with the answer of "On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it" (Romans 9:20).

Here is Paul's writing:

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9:19-23)
By God's grace, I know it is God's plan to save persons whom God is pleased to save from the wrath of God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN'S (THING MOLDED) FREEWILL DOES NOTHING FOR SALVATION RATHER GOD (THE MOLDER) EXCLUSIVELY CONTROLS MAN'S SALVATION (Romans 9:19-23)!

The Apostle Peter wrote:

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile majesties (2 Peter 2:9-10)

IN TRUTH, PETER CONVEYS THAT SELF WILLED PERSONS REVILE GOD'S EXCLUSIVE MAJESTIC SOVEREIGNTY IN MAN'S SALVATION BY THE SELF WILLED PERSON'S DESPISING THE WORD OF GOD "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) AS WELL AS "I CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD" (JOHN 15:19, INCLUDES SALVATION).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

PERSONAL ATTACK.

These are factual statements at the time written:

The Word of God says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) thus negating that man chooses God unto salvation.

Your post contains no scripture citations, so your post is full of the wicked thoughts of your heart.

FALSE AND DECEPTIVE.

These are factual statements at the time written because without your choice you do not think that you would be saved from the wrath of God:

Behold, you claim that your way to salvation is by the power of your choice of Jesus; however, the Word of God says that your way is not the Way (John 14:6).

Your final sentence states "Men must also choose God" which contradicts the Word of God for He says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

FALSE AND DECEPTIVE.

This is a factual statement at the time written:

Your final sentence states "Men must also choose God" which contradicts the Word of God for He says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

PERSONAL ATTACK.
FALSE AND DECEPTIVE.

Feel Better...?

This is a factual statement at the time written because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) yet in your claim to choose God you try to steal God's exclusive glory in man's salvation:

You very desperately try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man, so you are engaged in great sin.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

YOU say “Adam was not good before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”.

In other words, Adam was evil (not good) before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Bottom line, YOU are saying that Adam was not inherently good. If one puts that in other words, that would be something like, Adam was inherently evil. For what is not inherently good, could only be inherently evil. The conclusion that one could arrive from what you presented in YOUR post is that, for YOU, God has in fact actually created an inherently evil mankind, that is, the kind of Adam.

What does scriptures say with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

1. it is an offense to God
2. it is disobedience to God
3. it is a transgression
4. it is a sin

God was offended by Adam’s eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why was God offended by Adam with that?

Because Adam have heeded the voice of his wife Eve, and have eaten from the tree of which God commanded him he shall not eat of, this God had done pertaining to Adam. God cursed the ground. In toil Adam shall eat of it all the days of his life. That both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for Adam. And Adam shall eat the herb of the field.
That in the sweat of his face Adam shall eat bread till he return to the ground.

Was that a good thing for Adam?

If not, then that would be some kind of punishment? Something he would have to suffer because of what he did not willingly choose to do, if I were to consider what YOU teach.

Tong
R4026

That is a whole lot of useless "word of @Tong2020", which is not life.

In truth, the Word of God is life (John 14:6).

That’s a whole lot of your thoughts without the Word of God!

In the post that God had me make to which you replied, I accurately cited applicable scripture.

Your thoughts that you control you being saved from the wrath of God in your freewill keep heaping up into your precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

A word about your thoughts. It is written, “‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written “do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar” (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Revelation 21:27) – notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God’s thoughts with man’s thoughts, and that is evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

LOL

Only a depraved heart could write "LOL" about:

"You did not choose Me" (John 15:16) says Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28); therefore, you chose something other than Jesus.

Since I proclaim the Word of God to you about being saved from the wrath of God, then your "funny" evilly mocks the Word of God.

LOL

Only a depraved heart could after effectively equating God to man write "LOL" about:

Since I proclaim the Word of God to you about being saved from the wrath of God, then your "funny" evilly mocks the Word of God.

You are so confused "God is not a man" (Nmbers 23:19) that you can force to save you by choosing God for it is written:

"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’"
(Daniel 4:37)

LOL

So?

So?

In Daniel 4:37, "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing" clearly indicates that a supposed free will choice toward God by man unto salvation is accounted as invalid and ineffective and unenforceable.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
If I can show you scriptures that will show you that they indeed have chosen to serve God and not the gods of their fathers and the gods of the Amorites, what would that be to you? Would that bring you to repentance concerning that, towards the truth?

You can't show that they chose God with God's blessing.

The people said "...We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God" (Joshua 24:18).

Joshua declared to the people in response "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SERVE GOD.

The people then said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve YHWH.” (Joshua 24:21).

Joshua responded to the people with “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves YHWH, to serve Him.” (Joshua 24:22)

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY ARE "WITNESSES AGAINST YOURSELVES", SO THEY TESTIFIED TO THE CONDEMNATION OF THEMSELVES.

When a person is a "witness for a defendant", then such a one is a proponent for the defendant; in other words, a witness for the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for justification of the defendant.

When a person is a "witness against a defendant", then such a one is an opponent against the defendant; in other words, a witness against the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for condemnation of the defendant.

The truth is there is no free will in the passage.

Regarding when Joshua said "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him" (Joshua 24:22):

From the time that Joshua commanded "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) until after Joshua's death (Joshua 24:29) and after Othneil (Judges 3:9) and after Ehud (Judges 3:15) and after Shamgar (Judges 3:31) and after Deborah and Barak (Judges 4-5) and after Gideon (Judges 6-8) and after Tola (Judges 10:1) and after Jair (Judges 10:3), it was not until after all that time that...

After all that time it is written "they put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign Gods prior to that time.

Judges 10:16 contains the first occurrence of "foreign gods" after Joshua 24:23.

So there is no record of the people in attendance fulfilling Joshua's command of "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23), and non-performance of the command shows fruit contrary of their choice mentioned by Joshua.

The truth is no scripture states that man was imparted free will.

You testify against yourself by claiming free will ability to choose God.

Your claim is contrary to the Word of God who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Joshua 24:22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord for yourselves, to serve Him.”

And they said, “We are witnesses!”

There it is. That clearly is a case of a choosing by the people of God for themselves to serve. That’s just the point there.

Joshua 24:24 And the people said to Joshua, “The Lord our God we will serve, and His voice we will obey!”

25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

Clearly, verse 24 affirms what their choice was. And Joshua even made a covenant with the people to that effect.

Joshua 24:26 Then Joshua wrote these words in the Book of the Law of God. And he took a large stone, and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 And Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be a witness to us, for it has heard all the words of the Lord which He spoke to us. It shall therefore be a witness to you, lest you deny your God.”

A stone witness. Nevertheless, a witness to the choice they made.

Joshua 24:31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, who had known all the works of the Lord which He had done for Israel.

And so Israel, did as they have chosen, served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, living up to their choice of God, to serve Him.

That’s scriptures.

Tong
R4038

 

[Taken]

I would only ask, please show scriptures that effectively shows God offering people salvation for their acceptance of refusal. Until then, I find no biblical basis for such a belief and teaching.

.

Already did, seems you made no effort of your own...to verify...
"Your election of God"
"Choose you this day whom you will serve"..
"IF" you confess with your mouth.
"THEN" you will be saved.

Josh.24 passage involves Israel. They already have knowledge of God and in fact, have experienced Him in so many ways. They were in fact called God’s chosen people, as God had chosen them from among the people of the world, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises. Joshua 24:15 was not an offer of salvation or a choice between being saved or not, but a choice between whom they will serve.

Sure that applies to Israel...SAME God.
YOU think they were chosen out eh, sounds good?
In ancient days, all men were offered...
"One select group AGREED"...beginning of the LAW of Moses....and passed down:
EX 19:8 /Num 10:29 / Josh 1: :16 /Jer 42:20
"WE WILL DO ALL THAT YOU SAY"

God divided the men who Agreed from those who didn't "Hebrews and Gentiles."
Then God divided the TRIBES...and we find who was the beloved of the 12 Tribes...Judah and Benjamin the younger.....and again, we find the Tribes separating....and Judah and Benjamin clinging together, and hummm Judah is from where jesus is revealed....
All designed to keep a Direct Line of the Faithful to God.
Why do you think the endless persecution of JEWS? Because of their historical (by their word they agreed)....and when they faulter...they are corrected.
So here comes Jesus offering Salvation NOW (2,000 years ago), for awhile a few Jews accept. Jesus gone, Apostles gone, Gentiles "Claim" authority of Christ's Church...and?
The Jews are right back as before....HOPING they do well enough, keeping in faith by their own endurance, that at the end of their physical life, their soul will be saved....and the Gentiles? Some ignoring Gods offered Gift of Salvation Now, Keeping forever, by Gods indwelling Power. Are they teaching the JEWS Christ Jesus? No.
The Jews are hoping to build another Temple, and sacrifice animals again. The Converted Gentiles are getting their Salvation NOW, by, thorough, of the blood of Jesus, and trusting to believe He IS the Christ (power, wisdom, seed) of God....And once their Salvation is Received, Forever they are sealed unto God.

In my case, God was the one who have chosen me, have foreknown me, predestined me, called me, justified me, and glorified. In other words, He saved me by His grace. That is why with all my heart, mind and soul, I know that only to Him rightfully belongs all glory, all praise, and all thanks!

Tong
R4036

Ya well God chose me....and I chose Him, in the WAY the Lord taught. You know, the Truth? WAY ? and the Life?

Your position does not make common sense, let alone Spiritual sense.
Commonly AS IF you fall in love with someone, you want that someone...and so that someone, simply will be with you because you loved them? you offered your hand in marriage? ....AS IF, the other will reciprocate without loving you back, choosing you as well, agreeing....which what YES means, and I DO, I WILL means.....or the other can ignore you, or say flat out No.
If you do not Choose you this day, elect God as your God, call on Him, heartfully confess to Him...it doesn't matter WHAT He has chosen, what matters is you have not chosen, which is the will of God.
You have no excuse...(as a baby who has not yet hear, learned, has skill to speak, and God searches their heart for their truth).... You are fully able to hear, learn, call on Him, confess with your mouth your hearts belief. But choose NOT TO.)
It has zero effect on me, what you do or do not do...
But remember the man saying, Lord, Lord, haven't I done great things in your name?? And the Lord says....depart from me, I never knew YOU. How could He know him. They never called on Him, Confessed to Him anything. (Matt 7:20-24)
The VERY BASIC service a man CAN DO...While STILL in his Sin (not yet having been forgiven for disbelief in God)....IS Call on the Lord, (SO HE WILL HEAR YOU) in Confession and heartfelt belief and make a sure enough agreement to become Converted.
By what you preach, You do not comprehend the signifiance of a man calling on the Lord.
But no matter to me...
I am assured of my Salvation, and said enough to you, that you can study for yourself or not.
Just remember, the next time someone says, hey you want to go hand gliding, I've already paid the price....and you say No. You were offered, it was paid for and you rejected. It's no different with God.

 

[Taken]

Before I address your question, here's a question for you. Are you saying that God did not create every single human being?

Regarding the thing molded, Paul is talking about the whole person including mind, soul, and body.

Disagree....WITH YOU.

The BODY, and all it's physical parts...organs, tissue, bones, mind, eyes, etc....IS exclusively what was MOLDED, FORMED, CREATED from the dust of the ground....and returns to the dust of the ground.
IT's LIFE is Physical. It's LIFE IS BLOOD.

THE SOUL, neither comes from the dust or returns to the dust. The SOUL belongs to God. The SOUL LIFE, IS Gods Breath.
A SOUL breathed INTO a body, BEGINS that "individuals" Physical Independent Life.
The Eyes SEE, the Ears HEAR, etc.
THAT...is Gods MAKING.

Pay attention to what Scripture DOES SAY...
God is the Creator and MAKER...two different things.
He Creates and Makes.
And when a body is corrupt and a soul is corrupt....God has Offered and CAN "MAKE" it restored, anew, uncorrupted.

As a BODY is Physically dying...the SOUL departs (leaves) the body...
IF that soul is saved.......it is escourted to heaven, to WAIT for its body to be risen in glory.
IF that soul is unsaved.......it is sent to hell, to WAIT for its body to be risen in damnation sentenced and burned. The life in the soul will return to God, and the soul burned.
Both the lifeless body and lifeless soul destroyed, by fire, eternally separated from God.

And there is a whole process that applies to the 'spirit of man'... but by the things that you do say, probably too deep for you.

I am fully aware of Pauls preaching and what it means.
I do not agree with YOUR understanding. Which nearly all of your understanding is secular, meaning it makes sense to your MIND.

On to your question...

Are you saying that God did not create every single human being?

This is like me saying...
Are you saying you still beat your wife?

Have you ever mentioned beating your wife?
No.
Have you ever said you beat your wife?
No.

Did I ever mention God did not create every human being?
No.
Did I ever say God did not create every human being?
No.

So WHY ask me such an irrelevant ignorant question?

You are always asking about off the wall things, that nothing whatsoever indicates or even hints that that is anything that I have said.

Utterly weird!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
YOU say “Adam was not good before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”.

In other words, Adam was evil (not good) before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Bottom line, YOU are saying that Adam was not inherently good. If one puts that in other words, that would be something like, Adam was inherently evil. For what is not inherently good, could only be inherently evil. The conclusion that one could arrive from what you presented in YOUR post is that, for YOU, God has in fact actually created an inherently evil mankind, that is, the kind of Adam.

What does scriptures say with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

1. it is an offense to God
2. it is disobedience to God
3. it is a transgression
4. it is a sin

God was offended by Adam’s eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why was God offended by Adam with that?

Because Adam have heeded the voice of his wife Eve, and have eaten from the tree of which God commanded him he shall not eat of, this God had done pertaining to Adam. God cursed the ground. In toil Adam shall eat of it all the days of his life. That both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for Adam. And Adam shall eat the herb of the field.
That in the sweat of his face Adam shall eat bread till he return to the ground.

Was that a good thing for Adam?

If not, then that would be some kind of punishment? Something he would have to suffer because of what he did not willingly choose to do, if I were to consider what YOU teach.

That is a whole lot of useless "word of @Tong2020", which is not life.

In truth, the Word of God is life (John 14:6).

That’s a whole lot of your thoughts without the Word of God!

In the post that God had me make to which you replied, I accurately cited applicable scripture.

Your thoughts that you control you being saved from the wrath of God in your freewill keep heaping up into your precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

A word about your thoughts. It is written, “‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written “do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar” (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Revelation 21:27) – notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God’s thoughts with man’s thoughts, and that is evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

<<<That’s a whole lot of your thoughts without the Word of God!>>>

I assumed you know scriptures.

Do you not know that scriptures say with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

1. it is an offense to God
2. it is disobedience to God
3. it is a transgression
4. it is a sin

Do you not know that God was offended by Adam’s eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

You can read and get of all that in Romans 5:12-19.

So, what is your answer to my question “Why was God offended by Adam with that?”

<<<Your thoughts that you control you being saved from the wrath of God in your freewill keep heaping up into your precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).>>>

Not my thoughts there. Perhaps your thought that those were my thoughts. But NO, not my thoughts. Sorry.

<<<Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God’s thoughts with man’s thoughts, and that is evil.>>>

My free will assertion? Nope. What I do assert, is what the scriptures says, like in Joshua 24. That the people God had chosen from among the peoples of the world, choose to serve God at the time of Joshua and in all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua. Another is what scriptures say in Romans 5, with regards what Adam had done concerning the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which I am just showing you here.

Tong
R4039

 

[Tong2020]

.

Tong2020 said: ↑
I would only ask, please show scriptures that effectively shows God offering people salvation for their acceptance of refusal. Until then, I find no biblical basis for such a belief and teaching.

Already did, seems you made no effort of your own...to verify...
"Your election of God"
"Choose you this day whom you will serve"..
"IF" you confess with your mouth.
"THEN" you will be saved.

Then perhaps you have not understood anything I said in my post pertaining to the scriptures you cited. Well, if there is no other scriptures that you would cite that I may consider, I think that’s the end of that issue.

Tong
R4040

 

[Tong2020]

Josh.24 passage involves Israel. They already have knowledge of God and in fact, have experienced Him in so many ways. They were in fact called God’s chosen people, as God had chosen them from among the people of the world, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises. Joshua 24:15 was not an offer of salvation or a choice between being saved or not, but a choice between whom they will serve.

Sure that applies to Israel...SAME God.
YOU think they were chosen out eh, sounds good?
In ancient days, all men were offered...
"One select group AGREED"...beginning of the LAW of Moses....and passed down:
EX 19:8 /Num 10:29 / Josh 1: :16 /Jer 42:20
"WE WILL DO ALL THAT YOU SAY"

God divided the men who Agreed from those who didn't "Hebrews and Gentiles."
Then God divided the TRIBES...and we find who was the beloved of the 12 Tribes...Judah and Benjamin the younger.....and again, we find the Tribes separating....and Judah and Benjamin clinging together, and hummm Judah is from where jesus is revealed....
All designed to keep a Direct Line of the Faithful to God.
Why do you think the endless persecution of JEWS? Because of their historical (by their word they agreed)....and when they faulter...they are corrected.
So here comes Jesus offering Salvation NOW (2,000 years ago), for awhile a few Jews accept. Jesus gone, Apostles gone, Gentiles "Claim" authority of Christ's Church...and?
The Jews are right back as before....HOPING they do well enough, keeping in faith by their own endurance, that at the end of their physical life, their soul will be saved....and the Gentiles? Some ignoring Gods offered Gift of Salvation Now, Keeping forever, by Gods indwelling Power. Are they teaching the JEWS Christ Jesus? No.
The Jews are hoping to build another Temple, and sacrifice animals again. The Converted Gentiles are getting their Salvation NOW, by, thorough, of the blood of Jesus, and trusting to believe He IS the Christ (power, wisdom, seed) of God....And once their Salvation is Received, Forever they are sealed unto God.

<<<In ancient days, all men were offered...
"One select group AGREED"...beginning of the LAW of Moses....and passed down:
EX 19:8 /Num 10:29 / Josh 1: :16 /Jer 42:20
"WE WILL DO ALL THAT YOU SAY"

God divided the men who Agreed from those who didn't "Hebrews and Gentiles."
Then God divided the TRIBES.>>>

Where did you get this in the Bible? I suggest you read about God and Abraham. You can start in Gen. 12.

<<<So here comes Jesus offering Salvation >>>

Where did you also get this in the Bible? Jesus did not come to offer salvation, but came to save His people. He is the Savior.

Tong
R4041

 

[Tong2020]

In my case, God was the one who have chosen me, have foreknown me, predestined me, called me, justified me, and glorified. In other words, He saved me by His grace. That is why with all my heart, mind and soul, I know that only to Him rightfully belongs all glory, all praise, and all thanks!

Ya well God chose me....and I chose Him, in the WAY the Lord taught. You know, the Truth? WAY ? and the Life?

Your position does not make common sense, let alone Spiritual sense.
Commonly AS IF you fall in love with someone, you want that someone...and so that someone, simply will be with you because you loved them? you offered your hand in marriage? ....AS IF, the other will reciprocate without loving you back, choosing you as well, agreeing....which what YES means, and I DO, I WILL means.....or the other can ignore you, or say flat out No.
If you do not Choose you this day, elect God as your God, call on Him, heartfully confess to Him...it doesn't matter WHAT He has chosen, what matters is you have not chosen, which is the will of God.
You have no excuse...(as a baby who has not yet hear, learned, has skill to speak, and God searches their heart for their truth).... You are fully able to hear, learn, call on Him, confess with your mouth your hearts belief. But choose NOT TO.)
It has zero effect on me, what you do or do not do...
But remember the man saying, Lord, Lord, haven't I done great things in your name?? And the Lord says....depart from me, I never knew YOU. How could He know him. They never called on Him, Confessed to Him anything. (Matt 7:20-24)
The VERY BASIC service a man CAN DO...While STILL in his Sin (not yet having been forgiven for disbelief in God)....IS Call on the Lord, (SO HE WILL HEAR YOU) in Confession and heartfelt belief and make a sure enough agreement to become Converted.
By what you preach, You do not comprehend the signifiance of a man calling on the Lord.
But no matter to me...
I am assured of my Salvation, and said enough to you, that you can study for yourself or not.
Just remember, the next time someone says, hey you want to go hand gliding, I've already paid the price....and you say No. You were offered, it was paid for and you rejected. It's no different with God.

<<<Ya well God chose me>>>

God chose you. God chose you for what?

<<<Commonly AS IF you fall in love…>>>

You mentioned falling in love. I’d like to ask you regarding that in relation to God.

When did you fall in love with God?

How have you fallen in love with God?

Did you choose to fall in love with God or it just came and just happened?

Tong
R4042

 

[Kermos]

As yourself have said... FALSE

Matthew 23:37-38 reads:
37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

So you see, there can be no agreement between God and man, unless God intervenes in his life.

Man is a sinner by nature and can only do evil things, therefore he cannot choose for God because he is spiritually dead.

To God Be The Glory

Praise God!

Very well written!

 

[Kermos]

Fools calling other People Fools...
Should talk to a Mirror...

I'm not going to talk to a mirror, but based on what you wrote it sure sounds like you do because in your folly you claim to choose Jesus unto salvation despite the fact that Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

God has declared: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." Hosea 4:6.

Your analogy of the bank offering saving is unwarranted. The bank may offer you saving and you accepting, spiritually speaking is a FALSE statement! God NEVER offered salvation to anyone.

The most quoted verse in the world yet is the most misunderstood is John 3:16 there we read:

"For God so loved the world that He gave [NEVER OFFERED] His only Son..."

Keep studying your Bible.

To God Be The Glory

Praise God!

Another well-written post.