the great Jewish "distress"

[Timtofly]

Scripture is not confined to this train of thought = Matthew 24 pertains only to the nation Israel = false

I heard a Pastor preach on the radio that ( exact words from the pastor) "Matthew 24: 1-4 does not apply to the Church because we won't be here and therefore we cannot be deceived as Jesus warned the Disciples."

Well that pastor and all who believe this are deceived/confused already and need to repent for such teaching violates clear commands from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and the teachings/writings of the Apostles.

There is no pre-trib rapture of the Church - This is a deception/error that the Apostle Paul clearly refuted in 1 Thessalonians and 2Thessalonians.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thess 4:13-18

This Scripture does not refute a pre-trib "rapture". It does not even mention the tribulation. It is the Second Coming, and the rapture happens at the Second Coming. You have no connection to the tribulation in this passage. Can you prove if the Second Coming happens after, during, or before the living (on the earth) are "caught up together with them"?

The "caught up together" is what most mean by the rapture. Rapture is easier to type out every time than "caught up together with them in the clouds". I do not use "cutwtitc" either.

 

[David in NJ]

This Scripture does not refute a pre-trib "rapture". It does not even mention the tribulation. It is the Second Coming, and the rapture happens at the Second Coming. You have no connection to the tribulation in this passage. Can you prove if the Second Coming happens after, during, or before the living (on the earth) are "caught up together with them"?

.
The "caught up together" is what most mean by the rapture. Rapture is easier to type out every time than "caught up together with them in the clouds". I do not use "cutwtitc" either.

Thank You Brother for your valuable and most important question.
1 Thessalonians 4: 13- 18 is the irrefutable account of the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ - AFTER that the Rapture of the Church/His Bride/His Elect.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thess 4:13-18

Yes, the Scripture does in fact mention tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 1:6 , 2:14-16 , 3:1-4 , 5: 1-3

 

[farouk]

Thank You Brother for your valuable and most important question.
1 Thessalonians 4: 13- 18 is the irrefutable account of the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ - AFTER that the Rapture of the Church/His Bride/His Elect.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thess 4:13-18

Yes, the Scripture does in fact mention tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 1:6 , 2:14-16 , 3:1-4 , 5: 1-3

It's all bound up with the distinction between Israel and the church; by definition the church - a heavenly people - is raptured.

 

[David in NJ]

It's all bound up with the distinction between Israel and the church; by definition the church - a heavenly people - is raptured.

No, in fact it is not. The Scripture cannot lie - Second Coming of Christ is permanently attached to the Resurrection FIRST and AFTER this is the Rapture of the His Bride/Church/His Elect.

Anyone who separates the Second Coming of Christ from the Order spoken by the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John and the Lord Jesus is in error.

The Lord and the Apostles made it simple and clear - religion distorted it.

 

[farouk]

No, in fact it is not. The Scripture cannot lie - Second Coming of Christ is permanently attached to the Resurrection FIRST and AFTER this is the Rapture of the His Bride/Church/His Elect.

Anyone who separates the Second Coming of Christ from the Order spoken by the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John and the Lord Jesus is in error.

I think your dogmatism does not take into account that there is nothing in Scripture that must occur before the church is raptured...

 

[David in NJ]

I think your dogmatism does not take into account that there is nothing in Scripture that must occur before the church is raptured...

Then you admit to being a false apostle by claiming that the Apostle Paul's account is refutable and in error.

 

[farouk]

Then you admit to being a false apostle by claiming that the Apostle Paul's account is refutable and in error.

You are being very dogmatic. The Lord's Supper links the church -rather than Israel - to the Rapture: 1 Corinthians 11.26.

 

[David in NJ]

You are being very dogmatic. The Lord's Supper links the church -rather than Israel - to the Rapture: 1 Corinthians 11.26.

That is exactly what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians and as you point out Paul wrote it again in 1 Corinthians 11:26 - Thank you

 

[Randy Kluth]

Scripture is not confined to this train of thought = Matthew 24 pertains only to the nation Israel = false

I heard a Pastor preach on the radio that ( exact words from the pastor) "Matthew 24: 1-4 does not apply to the Church because we won't be here and therefore we cannot be deceived as Jesus warned the Disciples."

Well that pastor and all who believe this are deceived/confused already and need to repent for such teaching violates clear commands from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and the teachings/writings of the Apostles.

There is no pre-trib rapture of the Church - This is a deception/error that the Apostle Paul clearly refuted in 1 Thessalonians and 2Thessalonians.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thess 4:13-18

I couldn't agree more with you, that there is no Pretrib Rapture of the Church, and with the notion that the Olivet Discourse concerns not just Israel but the whole Church. But how it applies is something I've studied, and would share with you my own particular perspective.

It is true that Jesus was speaking to Israel when he gave his Olivet Discourse. And it is true that Israel was still in covenant with God under the Law when he gave this Discourse. So it did concern the future of the Jewish People primarily, both believers and unbelievers. Jesus knew that only the believers would benefit from this information. But he also knew that his Gospel would be expanded to all nations, and that many nations would become descendants of Abraham, ie nations of faith, or Christian nations.

And so, the way we benefit from this Discourse, which applied primarily to Israel, is by way of learning from what Jesus told Israel. He knew that this message would be sent on to other nations, who would have to learn the same lessons. As Jewish believers suffered from their testimony to their own brethren, so would Christians in other countries suffer in their own societies.

After all, the Gospels were recorded for the Church. It is unthinkable that this message given to Israel was not intended for other nations, as well.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The church can change the future, no?

Did Jonah change the future?

God did intend for Jonah to bring Ninevah to repentance. So yes, we can prevent some from falling off the wagon. And some can prevent even entire countries from falling into the abyss. When God gives us the opportunity, we need to speak the truth to those willing to listen. It will change their lives, one way or the other. The keys of the Kingdom were given to God's Church. It's in your hands.

 

[David in NJ]

I couldn't agree more with you, that there is no Pretrib Rapture of the Church, and with the notion that the Olivet Discourse concerns not just Israel but the whole Church. But how it applies is something I've studied, and would share with you my own particular perspective.

It is true that Jesus was speaking to Israel when he gave his Olivet Discourse. And it is true that Israel was still in covenant with God under the Law when he gave this Discourse. So it did concern the future of the Jewish People primarily, both believers and unbelievers. Jesus knew that only the believers would benefit from this information. But he also knew that his Gospel would be expanded to all nations, and that many nations would become descendants of Abraham, ie nations of faith, or Christian nations.

And so, the way we benefit from this Discourse, which applied primarily to Israel, is by way of learning from what Jesus told Israel. He knew that this message would be sent on to other nations, who would have to learn the same lessons. As Jewish believers suffered from their testimony to their own brethren, so would Christians in other countries suffer in their own societies.

After all, the Gospels were recorded for the Church. It is unthinkable that this message given to Israel was not intended for other nations, as well.

AMEN and beautifully said.
Now, how frightening is it for a pastor to mislead the Lord's flock by saying Matthew 24 does not apply to them.

 

[David in NJ]

God did intend for Jonah to bring Ninevah to repentance. So yes, we can prevent some from falling off the wagon. And some can prevent even entire countries from falling into the abyss. When God gives us the opportunity, we need to speak the truth to those willing to listen. It will change their lives, one way or the other. The keys of the Kingdom were given to God's Church. It's in your hands.

Beautiful - Thank You - This greatly encouraged me to yield myself to God for revival, whether that be one or many.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Beautiful - Thank You - This greatly encouraged me to yield myself to God for revival, whether that be one or many.

It's a serious responsibility God has given you, as one with knowledge of the word of God. You can literally change the lives of people, both those who accept your message and those who reject it. God will back you up because it is His word.

Just try to ensure that it is really God's word you are communicating. We must be careful to not misrepresent Him, whether by careless dissemination of our own pet theories or by bad character. We are all imperfect, but those who are trained to minister have a higher responsibility.

If lives are not on the line, of course we are free to speculate. So have at it! :)

 

[David in NJ]

It's a serious responsibility God has given you, as one with knowledge of the word of God. You can literally change the lives of people, both those who accept your message and those who reject it. God will back you up because it is His word.

Just try to ensure that it is really God's word you are communicating. We must be careful to not misrepresent Him, whether by careless dissemination of our own pet theories or by bad character. We are all imperfect, but those who are trained to minister have a higher responsibility.

If lives are not on the line, of course we are free to speculate. So have at it! :)

Yes, Thank You - Will you pray with me that God would grant more Grace, so that which He purposed in committing the Gospel to me He would fulfill
in all of its Purpose to the saving of souls for His Glory. That the struggles and setbacks would be overcome by His Mercy and those things which stood in the way He would remove - Amen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks for including me in your prayer for you. I agree! :)

 

[marks]

Again, where do the Scriptures indicate the AoD precedes the "birth pangs?" You certainly don't see the destruction of Jerusalem preceding the "birth pangs," so you must've meant that the AoD precedes the "birth pangs?" Please explain!

Why would you say I obviously didn't mean what I said? That's what I hear about the Bible too. That it obviously can't mean what it says, so it must mean something else.

In fact I did mean the destruction of Jerusalem preceded the birth pangs.

The destruction of Jerusalem happened in 70 AD. The birth pangs, and the AOD, are "end of age."

The destruction of Jerusalem was "pre birth pangs", the AoD is post.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don't differentiate between the "destruction of Jerusalem" and the "Abomination of Desolation."

I do, and most specifically.

What does "abomination" mean, Biblically speaking? It has some very specific usage.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The "birth pangs" themselves only continued in Jesus' generation, and ended with the AoD, in which Jerusalem was destroyed. Earthquakes and famines continued, but not any longer as a warning sign of the coming desolation of Jerusalem.

Stay tuned . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

I interpret the Abomination of Desolation as the Roman Army,

I interpret the AoD as an Idol, or in this case, the beast possessed by Satan, in the temple.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

The destruction of Jerusalem happened in 70 AD. The birth pangs, and the AOD, are "end of age". The destruction of Jerusalem was "pre birth pangs", the AoD is post.

Much love!

Here is a $1,000 Challenge for you Brother = $1,000 US Dollars i have reserved for you if you can successfully complete the challenge Rules Apply.

Please show from the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.
*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.

Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements
Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19
Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.
ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”