Closed communion

[Templar81]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgmIcm-o2oY

I'm interested to see what people think about closed communion. Is it right or wrong or is it neither? Should it be challenged?

My opinion is that I can udnerstand both sides of the argument as to wether communion should be open or closed and I'm not sure, but I do think they should know what they are doing.

So what do you guys think of this video?

 

[jiggyfly]

How do you define "communion"?

 

[Templar81]

I'm talking about recieving the eucharist and who should recieve it in a specific church. Should it be open to everyone or just members of the denomination?

 

[Foreigner]

It is cermonial and "in remembrance."

There should be no limitations between churches.

At my church it welcomes all people, members and non-members alike to participate.

As a former Catholic I do realize what they believe, but I would just ask them, "How many times does Jesus' body and blood need to be given?"

 

[Selene]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=BgmIcm-o2oY

I'm interested to see what people think about closed communion. Is it right or wrong or is it neither? Should it be challenged?

My opinion is that I can udnerstand both sides of the argument as to wether communion should be open or closed and I'm not sure, but I do think they should know what they are doing.

So what do you guys think of this video?

First of all, what he said about only Roman Catholics can receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church is incorrect. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that Orthodox Christians can also receive Holy Communion with Catholics despite the fact that they are not in communion with the Pope.

CCC #1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. "These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy." A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged."[sup]238[/sup]

The reason why Orthodox Christians can receive Holy Communion with us in the Catholic Church is because they kept all seven sacraments and kept the apostolic sucession. Protestant churches, however, did not keep all seven sacraments. Most of them only kept one or two sacraments; therefore, they cannot receive Holy Communion with us. And that is also according to the Catechism.

CCC #4000 Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders."[sup]239[/sup] It is for this reason that, for the Catholic Church, Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible. However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."[sup]240[/sup]

 

[jiggyfly]

I'm talking about recieving the eucharist and who should recieve it in a specific church. Should it be open to everyone or just members of the denomination?

Then it should be according to the church bylaw. I personally see this as a religious issue and not a spiritual or scriptural issue.

 

[Robbie]

Kind of reminds me of the whole, "They exclude you to make you zealous for them" principle.

 

[Templar81]

he was using the RCC as an example, I know that the orthodox churches recieve communion in the RCC, according to the Catechism, but many Orthodox churches are not keen on recieving communion inthe catholic church.

Officially us Anglicans only ahve two sacraments but that isn't so in every parish so from that point of view the Eucharist isn't instiitutionally celebrated properly in our church since most of us don't even believe in Transusbstanciation but ask an Orthodox priest if he beleives in transubstanciation and he will say, "I believe the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ physically and are very real but I do not feel the need to explain itt."

The thing is though, the RCC is still practising closed common, they don't let Christians who they feel do not have proper apostallic succession recieve communion in their masses. Many of my fellow Anglicans will go along to a Catholic mass and cannot udnerstand why they are either refused the sacrament or after having recieved it they are rebuked for doing so. I personally believe that when you go to another church you should respect their rules. I will be visiting a Catholic mass in a couple of weeks and I will not be expecting to recieve communion unless the priest himself say's he it doesn't bother him. If I want I could act like a catholic, genuflex and cross myself, which I do anyway and just take the sacrament but that would be decietful and I would not get the blessing from receving it that God wants me to.

 

[Templar81]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCCpxM1uMoI

Here's anotehr one from the same guy.

 

[Selene]

he was using the RCC as an example, I know that the orthodox churches recieve communion in the RCC, according to the Catechism, but many Orthodox churches are not keen on recieving communion inthe catholic church.

Officially us Anglicans only ahve two sacraments but that isn't so in every parish so from that point of view the Eucharist isn't instiitutionally celebrated properly in our church since most of us don't even believe in Transusbstanciation but ask an Orthodox priest if he beleives in transubstanciation and he will say, "I believe the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ physically and are very real but I do not feel the need to explain itt."

The thing is though, the RCC is still practising closed common, they don't let Christians who they feel do not have proper apostallic succession recieve communion in their masses. Many of my fellow Anglicans will go along to a Catholic mass and cannot udnerstand why they are either refused the sacrament or after having recieved it they are rebuked for doing so. I personally believe that when you go to another church you should respect their rules. I will be visiting a Catholic mass in a couple of weeks and I will not be expecting to recieve communion unless the priest himself say's he it doesn't bother him. If I want I could act like a catholic, genuflex and cross myself, which I do anyway and just take the sacrament but that would be decietful and I would not get the blessing from receving it that God wants me to.

We have certain rules about Communion. There are instances where even a Roman Catholic cannot receive Holy Communion in their own Church. Any Catholic who is in a state of mortal sin cannot receive Holy Communion. Unmarried Catholics who are cohabitating with their lovers cannot receive Holy Communion. Catholics who are married in a civil court cannot receive Holy Communion. Those are some of the rules. For a Protestant Christian to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church or by a Catholic priest can also depend on the circumstances. The Catechism says that a Catholic priest can administer the Eucharist to a non-Catholic if there is a grave necessity and that the non-Catholic requests for it (CCC #1401).

 

[Templar81]

I know what the catechism say's but it is only in theory. I know Catholics who are regular communicants and havn't been to confession in years and one of them I know is a divorcee and is having sex outside marriage and yet is still recieving holy communion. I used to know a Catholic who did whatever she wanted all eyar and then went to communion on easter sunday but never went to confession and she too was committing fornication.

What I'm tring to say is thatit can't be enforced, it is upto the individual concerned to examien their concsience and upto God as to wether they recieve blessing or judgement from the Eucharist.

Selene
I'd like to know what you think about this as a Catholic in the real world and not someone who is stuck in the middle ages. I already know what the catechism has to say, about closed communion, I've read it all before

You see I started this thread because I take the Eucharist very seriosly; I didn't recieve it until I knw what I was doing (children weren't allowed to recieve it when I was a kid), I examine myself every time I prepare to recieve the sacrament before I go to Church and try to remember every sin I can think of and how I can make amends and then when I recieve it I thank God for these holy gifts.

Then what happens is I attend a service where there is a baptism for example and many people who do not normally attend church and ahve no idea how to behave in church come and recieve the communion without even knowing what they are doing. This annoys me very much as you can imagine.

Unrelated question!
How old is the Catholci Catechism anyway? I know it gets revised every now and then!

 

[Templar81]

What I aid about being stuck int he middle ages. I didn't mean that Catholics in general are, what I mean't is that many Catholics today are progressive and can think for themselves.

There are exentuating circmumstances in which a Proestant can recieve the Catholic communion, for example when they are in a Catholic country and do not have access to a chruch from their own denomination. Anglcians do it all the time abroard and I will recieve it in Santiago De Compostella when I eventually make my pilgrimage.

 

[Selene]

I know what the catechism say's but it is only in theory. I know Catholics who are regular communicants and havn't been to confession in years and one of them I know is a divorcee and is having sex outside marriage and yet is still recieving holy communion. I used to know a Catholic who did whatever she wanted all eyar and then went to communion on easter sunday but never went to confession and she too was committing fornication.

What I'm tring to say is thatit can't be enforced, it is upto the individual concerned to examien their concsience and upto God as to wether they recieve blessing or judgement from the Eucharist.

Selene
I'd like to know what you think about this as a Catholic in the real world and not someone who is stuck in the middle ages. I already know what the catechism has to say, about closed communion, I've read it all before

You see I started this thread because I take the Eucharist very seriosly; I didn't recieve it until I knw what I was doing (children weren't allowed to recieve it when I was a kid), I examine myself every time I prepare to recieve the sacrament before I go to Church and try to remember every sin I can think of and how I can make amends and then when I recieve it I thank God for these holy gifts.

Then what happens is I attend a service where there is a baptism for example and many people who do not normally attend church and ahve no idea how to behave in church come and recieve the communion without even knowing what they are doing. This annoys me very much as you can imagine.

Unrelated question!
How old is the Catholci Catechism anyway? I know it gets revised every now and then!

Hi Templar,

The priest does not know the status of everyone who comes up to receive communion. And even if the priest knows that the person has sinned yesterday (for example) he cannot judge the person when he/she comes up to receive Holy Communion because the priest does not know whether the person has already repented and confessed their sins.

The Eucharist is to be taken seriously because it is the body and blood of Christ. It is not bread and wine. The Catechism was revised by the Council of Vatican II and is the one we are currently using.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Templar81]

Selene
What I mean is, it isn't the chruch that attempts to bar a person rom the sacrament, it is the consience of the person concerened

Anotehr question
If someone is barred from the sacrament because of say cohabitting and fornication, can they still go to confession?

 

[Templar81]

!st Corinthians 11:17-33
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter! For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.


Is Paul saying that you can actually recieve the Lord's supper to your harm if you do not approach it properly and is the above a valid enough statement for the exclusion of visitors from receving the Lord's supper in another church.

 

[Selene]

Selene
What I mean is, it isn't the chruch that attempts to bar a person rom the sacrament, it is the consience of the person concerened

Anotehr question
If someone is barred from the sacrament because of say cohabitting and fornication, can they still go to confession?

I agree that it isn't the Church that bars a person from the sacrament. It is the conscience of the person concerned. A person cohabitting and guilty of fornication can still go to confession, but God wants more than just to forgive the person. God wants to heal us of our wounds. That means repentence - a turning away from cohabitation and fornication until marriage.

 

[Templar81]

There one Priest can bar them but there's nothing to stop them from going elswhere.

if they recieve the sacrament without repenting of a sinful lifestyle then this lifestyle will just carry on so giving them communion would be like rewarding bad behaviour, which God is not going to do through the Eucharist.

Tell me Selene is 1st Coprinthians 11:17-33 the basis for this? It seems to be used by many chruches in slightly different ways to support restriction of persons to the Eucharist/Lord's Supper.

 

[aspen]

Admittedly, this is an issue I have never understood fully. Here are my questions:

1. Why would you want to take communion with a group of people you do not agree with?

2. Why would you want to participate in an act of worship - taking the Eucharist is worship - when you do not believe the bread and wine are the real body and blood of Christ? Based on my understanding, participating in the Eucharist without believing in the Real Presence is an act of idolatry.

That being said, I know a lot of people - even my friend who became Catholic with me, who are offended that they are not allowed to take the Eucharist until they are in full communion with the Catholic Church.....

I just see it as a warning against idolatry.

It also reminds of the homosexual marriage situation. I think it is a contradiction to believe that you can come into a church that celebrates the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist - and decide to participate with your own private belief system; while at the same time, banning homosexuals from walking into your church and demanding to be married - despite the fact that your church doesn't recognize same sex marriage. Both involve demands for equal treatment and the right to exercise a private re-interpretation of the sacrament.

 

[Templar81]

How is it idolatrous to not believe in the real presence?

 

[aspen]

How is it idolatrous to not believe in the real presence?

It is not idolatrous if you believe communion is a remembrance and you are taking it with a group of like-minded Christians - you are simply remembering Christ's death - nothing wrong with that. However, taking the Real Presence into your body is more than a remembrance, it is an act of worship. Adoration of the Body of Christ is also an act of worship. If you do not believe in the Real Presence you are committing idolatry by engaging in worship of a piece of bread or the dishonoring the body of Christ by reducing Him to a piece of bread in your mind.

Catholics who do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (an oxymoron, in my opinion) should not take communion. Also, if Catholics are wrong about the Real Presence, we are in big trouble! This is one of those disagreements between many Protestants and Catholics that is serious, non-negotiable, and potentially blasphemous.

On the Catholic thread - another member got all upset about Catholics worshiping statues - that is totally false (this is not an invitation to open up that tired argument again) if she actually understood Catholicism, she would have known that we do worship Christ by eating His Body and drinking His Blood and if we are wrong we are committing a heinous sin. All I can say is that I have faith that Christ meant what He said and that I can trust my experience.

Also, I should say that I am still unwilling to argue my position on the Eucharist - it is too Holy and I simply have no words to describe my experience.

blessings