The first horseman of the Apocalypse

[Zao is life]

The Great Trib Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

It's called wrath, not tribulation. Understanding the difference between tribulation and wrath is important, because referring to the seven bowls of wrath (which we read about in Revelation 16:19) as “the great tribulation”, results in faulty theology and faulty eschatology. Tribulation is the experience of the saints, whereas wrath is a judgement upon a tribe or tribes, or a nation, or nations.

Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and there is no "once-off" experience of tribulation.

A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them. The tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt was not a result of God's wrath coming upon Israel. The plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image". (Revelation 16:1-2)

The word tribulation (thlîpsis) is used in Matthew 13:21:
"But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation (thlîpsis) or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately stumbles."

Also in Matthew 24:9:
"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (thlîpsis) and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake."

It's also found in many other verses where it's referring to something that either would become, or had become the experience saints, for example in this verse:

John 16:33
"I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation (thlîpsis), but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world."

There is no "once-off" experience of tribulation. Any period in which Christians have experienced persecution (whether under Nero, or Christians in the former Byzantine Empire during periods of invasion by Islamic armies, etc), is a time of tribulation.

The same goes for any period during which unbelievers have experienced persecution at any time, for example the Jews since and following 70 A.D (pogroms, being expelled from countries, having their goods plundered, and of course, the worst of all - the one that took place during WWII).

However, with the exception of Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6, every single reference to tribulation in the New Testament is talking about the tribulation of saints, those who believe in Christ (unless Matthew 24:21, which talks about great tribulation, is a third exception to the rule).

GREAT TRIBULATION

In the New Testament, there are periods in which the tribulation experienced by a particular group of people is so intense as to be called a great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis).

There are three times (only three times) in the New Testament where the Greek word mégas (great) is used as an adjective to describe the intensity of the thlîpsis (tribulation): Matthew 24:21; Revelation 2:22; and Revelation 7:14.

Revelation 7:14
"These are the ones who came out of great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis) and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 2:22
"Behold, I am throwing her (the false prophetess Jezebel) into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis), unless they repent of their deeds."

Matthew 24:21
"for then shall be great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be."

The persecution of Christians under Nero would most certainly have been a time of great tribulation for Christians, but the New Testament is silent on that period of persecution.

Likewise, in the case of the Jews, A.D 70 would most certainly have been a period of great tribulation for the Jews (as was the tribulation Jews experienced during WWII), but only three times does the New Testament prophesy a coming great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis); and the two mentions of great tribulation in the Revelation are unambiguously and beyond dispute talking about a great tribulation as the experience of Christians.[/b]

 

[marks]

Revelation 2:22
"Behold, I am throwing her (the false prophetess Jezebel) into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis), unless they repent of their deeds."

Do you see this having an historical application? That is, was this letter to an actual messenger of an actual church at the time it was written?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Revelation 7:14
"These are the ones who came out of great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis) and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb."

Are you aware of John's pattern of usage of "apo" and "ek"?

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Are you aware of John's pattern of usage of "apo" and "ek"?

Much love!

That has nothing to do with the price of eggs. It's your red herring. You swallow it.

 

[Zao is life]

Do you see this having an historical application? That is, was this letter to an actual messenger of an actual church at the time it was written?

Much love!

Another red herring question. It has nothing to do with the fact that great tribulation is only mentioned three times in the New Testament.

 

[Timtofly]

You guys have all got Christ and the Antichrist all mixed up in the seals, like Christ is not present in the world, being with His saints until the end of the Age. You've completely removed Christ and the gospel from the seals.

So the 6th Seal is the Second Coming of Christ. Christ is in the Seals.

The first horse, as all the rest lead to humans being killed. How does the gospel kill humans physically? Do the horses just represent symbolic death? What is the point of: this is the end, and final harvest; if no one physically dies? Why do angels come at the Second Coming if not to remove souls from physical bodies?

Are not the angels the reaper of souls in the parables? Does the gospel itself remove a soul from the physical body? The Gospel represents spiritual birth, not physical death. The Seals deal with the physical removel of the church from the earth. The Gospel represents the time between the Cross and the opening of the first Seal. The Gospel has already gone out for 1991 years. The First Seal was just opened. The church has been leaving one by one. Any one left by the time the 6th Seal is opened will meet the Prince in the air.

These horses are about physical death and the soul leaving this corruptible body behind.

 

[Zao is life]

So the 6th Seal is the Second Coming of Christ. Christ is in the Seals.

The first horse, as all the rest lead to humans being killed. How does the gospel kill humans physically? Do the horses just represent symbolic death? What is the point of: this is the end, and final harvest; if no one physically dies? Why do angels come at the Second Coming if not to remove souls from physical bodies?

Are not the angels the reaper of souls in the parables? Does the gospel itself remove a soul from the physical body? The Gospel represents spiritual birth, not physical death. The Seals deal with the physical removel of the church from the earth. The Gospel represents the time between the Cross and the opening of the first Seal. The Gospel has already gone out for 1991 years. The First Seal was just opened. The church has been leaving one by one. Any one left by the time the 6th Seal is opened will meet the Prince in the air.

These horses are about physical death and the soul leaving this corruptible body behind.

You're not concentrating, and not reading, or you're pretending ignorance.

Not once have I said that the rider on the white horse is Christ Himself. I said the rider represents those who are taking the gospel into the world, and the power behind them is Christ. It is the gospel going forth into the world conquering and to conquer. Ever heard of the two witnesses? Whether Christians, the faithful church or the two witnesses, the rider on the white horse represents all of them. It's symbolic. The power behind him is Christ.

Notice that I said the rider on the red horse represents the beast which has received his/its seat, power and authority from Satan.

You're introducing the return of Christ Himself. The first seal is not the return of Christ Himself.

Try and concentrate.

@Timtofly I had to edit the 3rd paragraph because I left out the red in the rider of the second horse.

 

[marks]

Another red herring question. It has nothing to do with the fact that great tribulation is only mentioned three times in the New Testament.

Actually, I was wondering whether you thought this or not.

No matter, it's a public forum, you can post or not as you wish of course!



Much love!

 

[marks]

That has nothing to do with the price of eggs. It's your red herring. You swallow it.

Is that a "no"?

This has to do with interpreting the passage with understanding.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

You're not concentrating, and not reading, or you're pretending ignorance.

Not once have I said that the rider on the white horse is Christ Himself. I said the rider represents those who are taking the gospel into the world, and the power behind them is Christ. It is the gospel going forth into the world conquering and to conquer. Ever heard of the two witnesses? Whether Christians, the faithful church or the two witnesses, the rider on the white horse represents all of them. It's symbolic. The power behind him is Christ.

Notice that I said the rider on the red horse represents the beast which has received his/its seat, power and authority from Satan.

You're introducing the return of Christ Himself. The first seal is not the return of Christ Himself.

Try and concentrate.

@Timtofly I had to edit the 3rd paragraph because I left out the red in the rider of the second horse.

You did not even read my post. I said the return is the 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming. The first horse is a phenomenon that removes a soul from a body in physical death. As is the case with the other 3 horses. This is the harvest of the church. Each Seal removing more and more church members at the final harvest.

 

[David in NJ]

This is ABSURD ans FALSE - You need to repent of being an accuser of the Brethren.

And you want to speak of the Holy Spirit???

The very thing you accuse me you yourself has just committed - repent.

The same goes for you. Making the Corona virus the first seal is false.

Instead of claiming to be right all the time, rather just say why you believe what you believe, instead of insulting others when they disagree with you.

Tell us now why you believe that it's "impossible" that the first horse represents the gospel going out conquering and to conquer (the gates of hell not prevailing against it), and the power behind it, is Christ (represented by the rider on the white horse).

Try and do so without implying anyone who does not agree is blind and stupid.[/QUOTE]

Ah, but that is true what i said.

 

[Zao is life]

Actually, I was wondering whether you thought this or not.

No matter, it's a public forum, you can post or not as you wish of course!



Much love!

So I beleive that if the Lord is going to write a letter to your church, whatever he says to you will apply to all churches, and not only in your generation, but for all generations that follow.

The problems, issues, commendations and exhortations in the letters to each church apply to all churches until the Lord returns.

That's what I believe.

Chapter 4 starts with,

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what must occur after these things.

I believe that everything written from then onward applies generally to every generation of Christians, but specifically for the generation who will be alive and live through the events of the final 42 months before the Lord's return. I believe all the seals, trumpets and vial events apply to the same 42 months that will come at the end of this Age, and unlike the Olivet Discurse, is not talking at all about the period AD 66-70 (whereas the Olivet Discourse certainly is talking primarily about that period, and possibly also about the final 42months of this Age), and I believe that the binding of Satan has not occurred yet, nor has what is described as the first resurrection in Revelation 20 - hence I believe that the millennium is literal.

 

[Zao is life]

You did not even read my post. I said the return is the 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming. The first horse is a phenomenon that removes a soul from a body in physical death. As is the case with the other 3 horses. This is the harvest of the church. Each Seal removing more and more church members at the final harvest.

We disagree on all of that.

 

[marks]

So I beleive that if the Lord is going to write a letter to your church, whatever he says to you will apply to all churches, and not only in your generation, but for all generations that follow.

So then you do in fact think there was an historical church that this letter was written to, to whom it applied?

I'm asking for clarification because not everyone thinks this, and I don't know you, or all your views on things.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

So then you do in fact think there was an historical church that this letter was written to, to whom it applied?

I'm asking for clarification because not everyone thinks this, and I don't know you, or all your views on things.

Much love!

The seven churches are historic churches which all existed in the same region of the world which was then called Asia by the Romans and is today called Turkey, with the exception of one church, which was in what we today call Greece.

@marks

Correction. Patmos is in Greece. I've forgotten already. They either all existed in what is today Turkey, or all but one of them.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's called wrath, not tribulation. Understanding the difference between tribulation and wrath is important, because referring to the seven bowls of wrath (which we read about in Revelation 16:19) as “the great tribulation”, results in faulty theology and faulty eschatology. Tribulation is the experience of the saints, whereas wrath is a judgement upon a tribe or tribes, or a nation, or nations.

Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and there is no "once-off" experience of tribulation.

A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them. The tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt was not a result of God's wrath coming upon Israel. The plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image". (Revelation 16:1-2)

The word tribulation (thlîpsis) is used in Matthew 13:21:
"But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation (thlîpsis) or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately stumbles."

Also in Matthew 24:9:
"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (thlîpsis) and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake."

It's also found in many other verses where it's referring to something that either would become, or had become the experience saints, for example in this verse:

John 16:33
"I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation (thlîpsis), but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world."

There is no "once-off" experience of tribulation. Any period in which Christians have experienced persecution (whether under Nero, or Christians in the former Byzantine Empire during periods of invasion by Islamic armies, etc), is a time of tribulation.

The same goes for any period during which unbelievers have experienced persecution at any time, for example the Jews since and following 70 A.D (pogroms, being expelled from countries, having their goods plundered, and of course, the worst of all - the one that took place during WWII).

However, with the exception of Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6, every single reference to tribulation in the New Testament is talking about the tribulation of saints, those who believe in Christ (unless Matthew 24:21, which talks about great tribulation, is a third exception to the rule).

GREAT TRIBULATION

In the New Testament, there are periods in which the tribulation experienced by a particular group of people is so intense as to be called a great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis).

There are three times (only three times) in the New Testament where the Greek word mégas (great) is used as an adjective to describe the intensity of the thlîpsis (tribulation): Matthew 24:21; Revelation 2:22; and Revelation 7:14.

Revelation 7:14
"These are the ones who came out of great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis) and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 2:22
"Behold, I am throwing her (the false prophetess Jezebel) into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis), unless they repent of their deeds."

Matthew 24:21
"for then shall be great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be."

The persecution of Christians under Nero would most certainly have been a time of great tribulation for Christians, but the New Testament is silent on that period of persecution.

Likewise, in the case of the Jews, A.D 70 would most certainly have been a period of great tribulation for the Jews (as was the tribulation Jews experienced during WWII), but only three times does the New Testament prophesy a coming great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis); and the two mentions of great tribulation in the Revelation are unambiguously and beyond dispute talking about a great tribulation as the experience of Christians.[/b]

I disagree, the sealed church will be protected during the future 3.5 year tribulation

The (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11 is going to be a replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt and the Hebrews weren't running scared

 

[David in NJ]

The same goes for you. Making the Corona virus the first seal is false.

Instead of claiming to be right all the time, rather just say why you believe what you believe, instead of insulting others when they disagree with you.

Tell us now why you believe that it's "impossible" that the first horse represents the gospel going out conquering and to conquer (the gates of hell not prevailing against it), and the power behind it, is Christ (represented by the rider on the white horse).

Try and do so without implying anyone who does not agree is blind and stupid.

Ah, but that is true what i said.[/QUOTE]

blind is easy to fix and i never called anyone stupid.
we are all blind to God's Word until the Holy Spirit reveals - so blind is easy to fix and is often self inflicted
here is how you fix blind (myself included)

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30

Here is how you see that it is impossible for our Lord Jesus Christ to be the First Rider on the White Horse.

Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the One seated on the throne. It had writing on both sides and was sealed with seven seals
And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it
And I began to weep bitterly, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it
Then one of the elders said to me,
“Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.
When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp,
and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints................
skip down to
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!”…
Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals,

for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

And having sat down, He called the Twelve, and He says to them, "If anyone desires to be first, he will be last of all and servant of all."

These are just a few and i did not even get to the bow part.....
Peace and have a great day

 

[Zao is life]

I disagree, the sealed church will be protected during the future 3.5 year tribulation

The (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11 is going to be a replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt and the Hebrews weren't running scared

Yeah the Hebrews were suffering tribulation under the hand of Pharaoh while the plagues were coming upon Egypt just like the saints will be suffering tribulation at the hand of the beast but will be protected from the seven last plagues/bowls of wrath, probably removed before the first one is poured out.

It's the seven last plagues/bowls of wrath that comes at the end of the 3.5 year tribulation of the saints under the hand of the beast that the saints will be removed from.

 

[Zao is life]

Ah, but that is true what i said.

blind is easy to fix and i never called anyone stupid.
we are all blind to God's Word until the Holy Spirit reveals - so blind is easy to fix and is often self inflicted
here is how you fix blind (myself included)

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30

Here is how you see that it is impossible for our Lord Jesus Christ to be the First Rider on the White Horse.

Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the One seated on the throne. It had writing on both sides and was sealed with seven seals
And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it
And I began to weep bitterly, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it
Then one of the elders said to me,
“Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.
When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp,
and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints................
skip down to
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!”…
Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals,

for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

And having sat down, He called the Twelve, and He says to them, "If anyone desires to be first, he will be last of all and servant of all."

These are just a few and i did not even get to the bow part.....
Peace and have a great day

But you completely ignore the more than twice in this thread that I said Christ Himself is not the rider, but the power behind the rider. The power behind the gospel going out.

The devil himself is not the rider on the red horse. The dragon is the power behind him. It is the dragon who gives the beast his seat, his power, and great authority.

The white horse is the actions of those sealed with the seal of God. Christ is the power behind them, the power behind the rider on the horse. The red horse is the action of those who worship the beast. The dragon is the power behind its rider.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yeah the Hebrews were suffering tribulation under the hand of Pharaoh while the plagues were coming upon Egypt just like the saints will be suffering tribulation at the hand of the beast but will be protected from the seven last plagues/bowls of wrath, probably removed before the first one is poured out.

It's the seven last plagues/bowls of wrath that comes at the end of the 3.5 year tribulation of the saints under the hand of the beast that the saints will be removed from.

Scripture teaches the church will be on earth to witness the second coming, you have the removal prior to the plagues?