Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
No condemnation for those who are in Whom? Santa Claus?
Not all of it, but it goes back and forth and the same points (and "points") get made over and over and over again. It's like a soap opera, really, you can take a decade off and then pick it back up and it's as if you were never away at all... <smile>
I know that Revelation 20:1-3 states that Satan has been bound in terms of his ability to deceive the nations, which is what SI is saying... although maybe not as effectively as could be... <smile>
In your opinion, and that's mainly because you don't understand correctly what it means to "deceive the nations." Which... we have discussed.
And I have said, and will say again here, that his ability to deceive people ~ "members" of mankind... ~ is a very different thing than what John is referring to in his vision as Satan's deception of the nations. I totally get that you either do not see or refuse to acknowledge the difference between those two things, but it is what it is. You're conflating the two.
The only place in the New Testament besides Revelation 20 where we see anything regarding Satan being bound is in Matthew 12:28-29 ~ "...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?" You said later in this post that the house in Jesus's parable "represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not 'the nations')", and to that I say the house represents neither of those two things, but rather the world... really all its inhabitants, so all of mankind, who "by nature are children of wrath" (Paul, Ephesians 2), "children of the devil, whose will is to do the will of their father" (Jesus, John 8).
So the "thinking" goes... <smile>
In your opinion.
That's you, Zao. I don't mean to disparage; I mean no disrespect. But it is what it is; it's all you.
I am not a Preterist (they too have been in error).
LOL. I see that you are making about the same amount of headway with him as I have (none), so does that mean you are not making your point as effectively as could be or is it just impossible to get him to understand how we Amils understand Satan's binding and what it means for him to deceive the nations (ethnos)?
It's interesting how the same people who insist that Satan's binding in Revelation 20 renders him to be completely incapacitated would not try to say the same thing about the binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:28-29. They can recognize that the strong man is bound only from doing certain things rather than being completely incapacitated, but somehow conclude that his binding in Revelation 20 means he is bound from doing anything at all. No, it only says he is bound from deceiving the nations. They think that is referring ot his general ability to deceive, but we know it has to do with his ability to prevent the gospel from going to all of the nations (through the whole world), which was not the case in Old Testament times when the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-12). During that time Satan had the power of death which he was able to use to keep people as slaves to the fear of death, but Jesus took that away by His death (Hebrews 2:14-15).
David, I've told you this a few times before but you never "listen". Amils do not deny what it means when it says "no more". We believe that Satan can deceive the nations no more during the thousand years. The difference between how Amils interpret Revelation 20 and how Premils interpret it has nothing to do with Premils accepting where it says "no more" while Amils don't. No, that is just another in your long line of straw man arguments that you waste your time making.
In other words, "They believe what the text says and do not add to the scripture.
LOL. So, we should be looking out for a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns? I mean, that's what the text says. You apparently think that if we don't take something as literally as possible then we are adding to the scripture.
You speak nothing but gibberish whenever you speak about what Amils believe since you do not understand what we believe. To think that you understand what we believe even more than we do is nothing less than complete foolishness. Amils do NOT assert "that God is not omnipotent and the Holy Spirit in the world does not suffice to get the gospel out to all nations" as you falsely claim. We claim that the gospel being preached throughout the world through the power of the Holy Spirit is what binds and restrains Satan from being able to keep the world in spiritual darkness like he was able to do in Old Testament times.
I was showing how ridiculous it is for you to talk about believing what the text says as if everything is just spelled out for us and no spiritual discernment is required.
I don't care what's in your flawed mind. You just don't get it. As Amils understand Satan's binding (which you don't understand at all), he can deceive the nations no more during the thousand years and not again until he is loosed when the thousand years are over.
I already have done that several times, and you just don't get it. When he was bound he was not able to keep the nations of the world in spiritual darkness in New Testament times no more like he was able to do in Old Testament times. You don't even attempt to understand this from the Amil perspective for whatever reason. You always look at his binding only from the Premil perspective.
Satan was never able to keep the world in spiritual darkness. What you are saying implies that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses .... etc etc were all in spiritual darkness and that no Gentiles were ever added to Israel having come to faith in the God of Israel before the time of Christ.
That's not what I'm saying and you know it! I have said many times that he kept the vast majority of the world in spiritual darkness with few exceptions. I have said that about the Gentiles in particular because I have pointed out many times how Paul said that in Old Testament times the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world". You know that few Gentiles were saved in Old Testament times. But, Revelation 7:9 describes a great multitude that no one can count from all nations being saved (Revelation 7:9). Clearly, a vast majority of them have been saved in New Testament times.
He did prevent that because God allowed it. You falsely, deceptively and wickedly claim that I say that Satan was more powerful than God, but that is not the case. I would not say such a horrible thing. Of course, Satan can only do what God allows him to do. That does without saying. So, any time I talk about what Satan was able to do or not able to do it's always in the context of what God allows.
Your slander is making you look like nothing more than an evil fool. Stop the slander already!
Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”
Yes, but it is not used in the same context in all the places it appears. In other words, 'no more' can mean for a season, and it can also mean forever. And it can also mean both; more on that in a moment.
David, you're making my point for me. During God's millennium, which we are in the midst of now (and maybe very close to the end of it, even from our perspective)... in "these last days," as the writer of Hebrews puts it in Hebrews 1:2, Satan is not deceiving the nations; indeed he cannot.
Revelation 18 is near the end of the fifth cycle of judgments [Revelation 17:1 - 19:10]; this is the judgment of Babylon, the worldly city, and is a portrayal of the end/close of the present age. After this come:
No. The power and ability to deceive is policed by God. Satan is not sovereign. Man is not sovereign. Satan and man can only do what God lets them do. God's uses Satan, evil and darkness for His own purposes and overriding will. Satan is a slave of the Lord. He cannot do what he wishes without permission Under the sovereign control of Christ, He reigns over His enemies (human and demonic) today. Everything is working out for His ultimate glory.
You use so many words to say nothing. No, I cannot hear false doctrine and I'm glad about that. You do not know what you are talking about. That is clear to me. You do not even consider what effect Christ taking the power of death away from Satan had. Scripture says he was able to wield that power to keep people as slaves to the fear of death. How you can't see the relation between that and his ability to deceive the nations is beyond me, but it's clearly YOU who cannot hear.
You are an evil liar. I have to assume you are lying about me and my beliefs at this point, since you keep saying it even after I correct you. I have never said that darkness can overcome the light. Not once! Stop lying about me!
Jesus is "the light of the world". The light of His gospel has not always been in the world. How can you not understand such simple things?
Your honest OPINION is GARBAGE and is a total LIE. There is nothing blasphemous at all about what I believe and that is a FACT.
No different? That's an insane comment. You are acting as if Jesus taking Satan's power over death away had no effect at all because you're saying "it was not different before Jesus died and rose again". That is clearly not true.
Did Paul say that the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12) before Christ came for nothing? What do you think he meant by that? That a few believed before He came means we can just ignore that a vast majority of the world was in spiritual darkness before He came and we can then act as if nothing really changed in the world in relation to Satan after He came?
Why? Because Jesus had not come yet. He is the light of the world. Without His light and the preaching of the gospel with the power of the Holy Spirit, the world was in almost complete spiritual darkness. Satan only has ever had the amount of power that God allows, but you can't just ignore the fact that he had much more power in OT times than in NT times. Otherwise, Jesus taking the power of death away from him would mean nothing.
You are not even trying to understand my point. I am not talking in absolutes here, as if Satan had the ability to keep even people like Abraham in darkness. I'm talking mainly about the Gentile nations here. The situation in the Gentile nations was bad enough to where Paul was able to say that they, collectively, had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). That was a general statement and doesn't mean there weren't a few exceptions. But, it went from that to a description of a great multitude that no one can number being saved (Revelation 7:9).
