Hidden in plain sight: Why I believe this about the Revelation

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Scripture often makes broad general sweeping statements. When Scripture tells us that the Gentiles would no longer be deceived it does not mean every single one of them, or even most of them, would be saved, just that the spiritual ignorance would be finally lifted from the darkened Gentiles. This relates to the Gospel light going out to the Gentiles (ethnos). Before the cross they were in darkness; now they are enlightened. They are without excuse. The answer to darkness every time is light.

With the Lord’s First Advent, the light began to shine brightly. Jesus confronted, overcame and dispelled the darkness at every turn. Satan was defeated on his own turf. Jesus bound Satan in spiritual chains. He limited his authority and influence over the Gentile nations and invaded his kingdom with the truth. Since the binding of Satan, the devil has not been able to prevent the spread of the Gospel to the nations, to keep the truth from shining bright on the once-blinded heathen or keep the Gentiles in spiritual darkness like they were in Old Testament times. Now the rest of the world has the opportunity to repent and receive deliverance and freedom. Satan's authority to deceive has been broken over countless millions since Calvary.

We see this with the special assignment that Jesus gave Paul in Acts 26:17-18: “Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

Did this mean the deception that blinded the Gentiles would be finally be lifted from all the darkened Gentiles? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Jesus, here, directly links the spiritual darkness enveloping the Gentiles to the power of Satan. He connects the Gentiles turning from darkness to light through the advance of the great commission to the deliverance of the Gentiles from the bondage or chains of Satan. This is how the gross darkness would be (and was) removed that hung over the Gentiles throughout the old covenant period. This is how they were delivered from the power of Satan to God to liberty in Christ.

Exactly. Premils can't understand this concept, though. It's just all or nothing with them. To them, Satan can either deceive everyone or no one. They don't understand how scripture makes general statements about things sometimes such as Paul saying that before Christ the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). To Premils, that means he was saying that literally no Gentiles ever had any hope and none of them ever knew God. No, there are a few exceptions. Paul was making a general statement there and that's the case in Revelation 20 as well in relation to Satan deceiving the "ethnos" (it should say "Gentiles" or "heathen" instead of "nations" since they number "as the sand of the sea").

It's not saying Satan would literally not deceive anyone during the thousand years, but that his binding would prevent him from deceiving the world in the same way he was able to in Old Testament times when a vast majority of the world was in spiritual darkness. We should compare that to there being a great multitude that no one can count from all nations being saved (Rev 7:9) to see the impact that the preaching of the gospel has had on Satan's activities in NT times compared to OT times.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Prove it using the following to do so. Prove that any Gentile that gets cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed into it was never saved to begin with, was never a believer to begin with. IOW, prove that a Gentile can be graffed into the good olive tree without having to be a believer.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee .
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

Do some of you even know what an 'if' typically means? It means there are conditions that have to be met. If a Gentile continues in His goodness, this can never happen to that Gentile---thou also shalt be cut off

Obviously, it can't mean the same thing, that if a Gentile does not continue in His goodness, this Gentile will not be cutoff. The latter is basically mocking God, that even though God says He will cutoff a Gentile that does not continue in His goodness, He never really does that. If He never does that, then why did He even mention it to begin with? What is the point in that?

What I have underlined in Romans 11 above, no intellectually honest person is going to insist, that if that were to happen to a Gentile, they were never believers to begin with, were never saved to begin with. Only a deceiver would insist that since no one would argue to begin with that a Gentile can be graffed into the good olive tree without having to be a believer first. Keeping in mind a believer equals saved.

Well as the vine is not salvation it is an irrelevant example.

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36​

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King James Version​

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36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Colossians 3:2-4​

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King James Version​

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2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Once again I ask you, how many of your sins did Jesus suffer and pay for with His blood and suffering.

 

[Davidpt]

It's not saying Satan would literally not deceive anyone during the thousand year

Yes it is saying that. After all, that is what the phrase 'no more' means throughout the book of Revelation.

For exaxple.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

The way you are interpreting 'no more' in Revelation 20:3 you would have us believe that verse 21 above should be understood like such?

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found some more but less than before. Rather than, shall be found no more at all, as in it no longer exists, end of story, nothing to debate, nothing to dispute.

Why do you think it is being consistent, thus not cherry picking, to interpret 9 passages in Revelation involving 'no more' in the same manner then treating the 10th passage in an entirely different manner altogether?

You contradict the fact that satan doesn't deceive the nations again until he is loosed from his prison. Yet, you have him still deceiving the nations while he is imprisoned, the fact reality 100% proves that nations are still being deceived as we speak. And that you have satan imprisoned as we speak. Why does he even need to be bound if he can do the same things when he is bound that he can do when he is not bound? Where is the logic in that, that there is no difference between being bound and being loosed, that they mean the same thing? That it isn't a contradiction that bound and loosed mean the same thing?

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes it is saying that.

No, it's not, David. It's talking about his ability to deceive the nations (obviously)... which means, David, deceiving people-groups, Gentile people-groups, not individuals. This was Jesus's commissioning of His disciples ~ and all of us, by extension ~ to "go therefore and make disciples of all nations" at the end of His public ministry and after His resurrection. And we see it again in Acts 1, where, just before Jesus's ascension to heaven at the right hand of the Father, He says to them, "you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

You contradict the fact that satan doesn't deceive the nations again until he is loosed from his prison.

The fact is that Satan never deceived the nations again. He will try, certainly, as I said, when he is loosed, but he will be unsuccessful... and defeated finally, by Christ Himself.

Yet, you have him still deceiving the nations while he is imprisoned...

Again, I can't speak for SI, but I don't think this is the case. For me, it's most certainly not.

, the fact reality 100% proves that nations are still being deceived as we speak.

Nope. They are not, else Gentiles would not be coming to Christ. If we are Gentile believers in Christ ~ which I am (and you may be) ~ we are (so I am, and if so then you are) proof-postive that the nations are not being deceived.

And that you have satan imprisoned as we speak.

He is. He is absolutely restricted from deceiving the nations (Gentile people-groups).

Why does he even need to be bound if he can do the same things when he is bound that he can do when he is not bound? Where is the logic in that, that there is no difference between being bound and being loosed, that they mean the same thing? That it isn't a contradiction that bound and loosed mean the same thing?

See above.

Interesting that you don't address me with these things. I mean... not that I need you to or anything like that, but, still... Yeah, interesting, but fair enough.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes it is saying that. After all, that is what the phrase 'no more' means throughout the book of Revelation.

Did you not read my post where I already addressed this? The phrase "no more" does not mean it's talking about Satan's general ability to deceive, as you believe. What it means for him to "deceive the nations" is debatable. Based on how I understand it, I believe he does it "no more" during the thousand years like he had done previously in Old Testament times and then he gets to do it again for a little season when the thousand years are over.

So, I am not interpreting the phrase "no more" any differently than you in the sense that I too believe he is able to deceive the nations no more during the thousand years. That is not what we are disagreeing about, but you can't ever get that through your head. Instead, we disagree about what it means for him to deceive the nations. You think it relates to his general ability to deceive and think his binding results in him being completely incapacitated. I, on the other hand, believe it relates to his ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness the way he was able to do in Old Testament times when he held the power of death and was able to keep people in slavery to the fear of death. He was able to keep the word of God from spreading throughout the world in those times. But, Christ took that power away from him (Hebrews 2:14-15) and the gospel has been spread throughout the world resulting in far more people being saved in NT times compared to OT times because of people bing aware of the hope of eternal life instead of having no hope and being afraid of death as was the case for a vast majority of the world in OT times.

You waste an incredible amount of time making straw man arguments like this one because you don't even understand what we actually disagree about. It's unbelievable.

For exaxple.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

The way you are interpreting 'no more' in Revelation 20:3 you would have us believe that verse 21 above should be understood like such?

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found some more but less than before. Rather than, shall be found no more at all, as in it no longer exists, end of story, nothing to debate, nothing to dispute.

Nope! That doesn't represent how I interpret Revelation 20:3 at all. What a tremendous waste of time for you to create this argument against your straw man. You rarely address what I believe. You do not understand what i believe and that causes you to misrepresent what I believe over and over and over again. So, you waste your time with straw man arguments repeatedly. You can't get that time back.

Why do you think it is being consistent, thus not cherry picking, to interpret 9 passages in Revelation involving 'no more' in the same manner then treating the 10th passage in an entirely different manner altogether?

That's not what I'm doing. You just aren't able to understand what I believe and how I interpret scripture for whatever reason. So, you end up wasting your time making one straw man argument after another instead of addressing what I actually believe.

You contradict the fact that satan doesn't deceive the nations again until he is loosed from his prison.

No, I don't. I never said that at all. I disagree with you about what that means for him to deceive the nations. I do not claim that he does so before he is loosed.

Yet, you have him still deceiving the nations while he is imprisoned, the fact reality 100% proves that nations are still being deceived as we speak.

No, I do not. Not according to how I understand what that means. that's only the case based on how you understand it. You are misrepresenting my view and I'm getting tired of it. In the way I understand it, he does not deceive the nations during the thousand years. I don't care how you understand it or if my view disagrees with that. But, you have no right to act as if I'm purposely going against what the text says. I'm not. I'm just interpreting it differently than you are.

And that you have satan imprisoned as we speak. Why does he even need to be bound if he can do the same things when he is bound that he can do when he is not bound?

Here is your problem! You do not understand why he had to be bound. Do you really think that in NT times he has been doing all the same things that he did in OT times with no difference at all? Do you understand that Jesus took the power of death away from him, as it says in Hebrews 2:14-15? What do you think that means and what effect do you think that had on Satan? Do you know that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8)? Do you thnk He failed to do that? If not, then what do you think that means exactly? How did he destroy the works of the devil?

Where is the logic in that, that there is no difference between being bound and being loosed, that they mean the same thing?

Who is saying that? No one. Why do you wast so much time making straw man arguments? Do you just enjoy wasting your time?

That it isn't a contradiction that bound and loosed mean the same thing?

Yes, it would be if anyone actually claimed that, but no one is claiming that. You are arguing with your imaginary straw man about that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, I can't speak for SI, but I don't think this is the case. For me, it's most certainly not.

No, I don't have Satan deceiving the nations while he is imprisoned, either. No one does. That would obviously contradict what it says in Revelation 20 when it indicates that he is bound from deceiving the nations during the thousand years. David misrepresented my view (the Amill view that you also have) throughout his post. He does not seem to put any effort into understanding what we Amills believe, so he just makes one straw man argument after another.

 

[PinSeeker]

He does not seem to put any effort into understanding what we Amills believe, so he just makes one straw man argument after another.

I disagree with that; I think David's posts are at least fairly thoughtful, as opposed to... well, several on here.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I disagree with that; I think David's posts are at least fairly thoughtful, as opposed to... well, several on here.

So, what do you think is the reason he misrepresents Amillennialism so often then?

 

[rebuilder 454]

l

No need to project some imagined emotionalism. I told you . . . I'm out. I'm not interested.

Much love!

Put all Three of them on ignore.

Let them fellowship in their own goooo

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

l
Put all Three of them on ignore.

Let them fellowship in their own goooo

Yes, put those who can actually exegete scripture and make coherent arguments on ignore, so you all can share your unintelligible gibberish with each other while believing whatever you want to believe instead of what is taught in scripture.