The first horseman of the Apocalypse

[marks]

How many of the 12 tribes are Jews? i.e which of the twelve tribes mentioned are the house of Judah?

"Jews" is used more generically in the Bible, just the same, I never mind sticking with Biblical language,

Revelation 7:3-8 KJV
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

"Jews" is used more generically in the Bible, just the same, I never mind sticking with Biblical language,

Revelation 7:3-8 KJV
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Much love!

We who believe in Christ are the children of Israel, and the only children of Israel. If you deny this fact too. it's because you refuse to believe Jesus and the apostle Paul, and John the Baptist before them.

@marks Excluding the Gentile believers in Christ from the 144,000 is the same as the JW's excluding you + all the Jews from the 144,00 and including only the JW's in the 144,000. It's a lie.

You cannot exclude Gentile believers from Israel, nor can you include unbelievers - whether Jew or Gentile, in the 144,000.

@marks Paul includes Gentile believers in the 10 of the tribes of Israel listed in Revelation 7 in both Romans 11:17 and Romans 9:25-26 (which is quoting a prophecy in Hosea 1:9-11 given to 10 of the tribes listed in Revelation 7). @marks Paul includes the Gentiles who believe, in them. Who are you to take the Gentiles who believe in Jesus out? God has us all included in the 144,000. If you want to be excluded, exclude yourself only, but don't exclude me.

 

[marks]

you refuse to believe

Actually, what I do, is I believe what I read in the Bible. That's all.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We who believe in Christ are the children of Israel, and the only children of Israel. If you deny this fact too. it's because you refuse to believe Jesus and the apostle Paul, and John the Baptist before them.

Quote those places if you would please. Let's look.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Actually, what I do, is I believe what I read in the Bible. That's all.

Much love!

No you don't believe. If you believed you would not exclude yourself from Israel when God has included you in Israel.

 

[Zao is life]

Quote those places if you would please. Let's look.

Much love!

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know all of you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Paul includes Gentile believers in the 10 of the tribes of Israel listed in Revelation 7 in both Romans 11:17 and Romans 9:25-26 (which is quoting a prophecy in Hosea 1:9-11 given to 10 of the tribes listed in Revelation 7).

Paul includes the Gentiles who believe, in them. Who are you to take the Gentiles who believe in Jesus out? God has us all included in the 144,000. If you want to be excluded, exclude yourself only, but don't exclude me.

There is nowhere in the New Testament where the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are not included in Israel, and nowhere in the New Testament where Jews and Gentiles who do not believe are included..

 

[marks]

No you don't believe.

Actually, I do. I'm the guy that says, believe what it says, the Bible means what it says.

You fault me because I don't believe things it doesn't say.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know all of you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And where is the statement that gentiles are Jews? Israel, though not born from Jacob? I don't see it.

Do you surmise that being called the children of Abraham is the same thing as being children of his grandson? I don't.

The 144,000 are 12,000 each from Jacob's 12 sons. How more explicit can God be?

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Actually, I do. I'm the guy that says, believe what it says, the Bible means what it says.

You fault me because I don't believe things it doesn't say.

Much love!

You have just proved you believe things it doesn't say.

 

[Zao is life]

And where is the statement that gentiles are Jews? Israel, though not born from Jacob? I don't see it.

Do you surmise that being called the children of Abraham is the same thing as being children of his grandson? I don't.

The 144,000 are 12,000 each from Jacob's 12 sons. How more explicit can God be?

Much love!

Only two of the 12 tribes listed are Jews. @marks, or the house of Judah: Judah and Benjamin. Where are the Gentiles Paul included in Romans 9:25-26 and Romans 11:17 and Romans 11:25?

 

[marks]

There is nowhere in the New Testament where the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are not included in Israel, and nowhere in the New Testament where Jews and Gentiles who do not believe are included..

Nowhere they are not included? That sounds like "proving a negative".

At any rate, there are many places where Israel describes a group of unbelievers.

Here is one:

Acts 2:22 KJV
22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Romans 10:16-21 KJV
16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20) But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

God will provoke Israel to jealousy, how?

And who is being provoked? The children of the kingdom? No. Unbelievers. Unbelieving Israel. Being provoked by believing gentiles.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

And where is the statement that gentiles are Jews? Israel, though not born from Jacob? I don't see it.

Do you surmise that being called the children of Abraham is the same thing as being children of his grandson? I don't.

The 144,000 are 12,000 each from Jacob's 12 sons. How more explicit can God be?

Much love!

You obviously don't believe the New Testament (which teaches that genetic ancestry means nothing and counts nothing). Only those who are Christ's through faith in Christ are Israel, but you want to make the 144,000 all about genetic ancestry.

 

[Zao is life]

Nowhere they are not included? That sounds like "proving a negative".

Read it again
Fullness of the Gentiles said: ↑

There is nowhere in the New Testament where the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are not included in Israel, and nowhere in the New Testament where Jews and Gentiles who do not believe are included.

 

[marks]

Only two of the 12 tribes listed are Jews.

I've already changed it for you to the children of Israel.

However . . . you may be interested in a word search of Jew, you'll see it gained a much more generic meaning.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You obviously don't believe the New Testament

Well folks we've reached bottom.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but you want to make the 144,000 all about genetic ancestry.

I'm just quoting the Bible. For which I'm branded an unbeliever. For quoting the Bible.

Revelation 7:3-8 KJV
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

And, of course, asserting that it means what it says, and that I believe what it says. To this you reply I don't believe the New Testament. Mind rot.

 

[Zao is life]

Nowhere they are not included? That sounds like "proving a negative".

At any rate, there are many places where Israel describes a group of unbelievers.

Here is one:

Acts 2:22 KJV
22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Romans 10:16-21 KJV
16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20) But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

God will provoke Israel to jealousy, how?

And who is being provoked? The children of the kingdom? No. Unbelievers. Unbelieving Israel. Being provoked by believing gentiles.

Much love!

When God shuts the door of the ark He shuts the door. It does not matter how many Jews and Gentiles are left outside through their unbelief. Those in the ark when the door has been shut by God are Jews and Gentiles who believe, represented by the 144,000 and the multitude in Revelation 7:9 which you don't realize (or refuse to acknowledge) tells you how many the 144,000 are. The number is as literal as the seal of God is a branding on their foreheads. The seal of God is the Holy Spirit. It's not physical. Yet you insist on making the 144,000 a literal number.

 

[marks]

You have just proved you believe things it doesn't say.

Empty words.

 

[Zao is life]

Fullness of the Gentiles said: ↑

You obviously don't believe the New Testament

Well folks we've reached bottom.

Much love!

If you don't believe that the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are just as much Israel as Jews who believe in Jesus, and that no one who does not believe in Jesus is Israel, and that the 144,000 includes all Gentiles and Jews who believe in Jesus but excludes all Jews and Gentiles who don't, then you don't believe the New Testament.

 

[marks]

When God shuts the door of the ark He shuts the door. It does not matter how many Jews and Gentiles are left outside through their unbelief. Those in the ark when the door has been shut by God are Jews and Gentiles who believe, represented by the 144,000 and the multitude in Revelation 7:9 which you don't realize (or refuse to acknowledge) tells you how many the 144,000 are. The number is as literal as the seal of God is a branding on their foreheads. The seal of God is the Holy Spirit. It's not physical. Yet you insist on making the 144,000 a literal number.

you do realize, right, that I posted a passage that clearly calls people Israel, who are not believers? You saw that? Does it mean anything to you? And that there are many many more just like it, where Isreal refers to the children of Jacob, without regard of their faith or lack thereof?

Much love!