Israel, the Church, and the Rapture

[Taken]

Because no evidence of a pre-trib rapture is found in scripture, none

You will note you haven't supported your claim with scripture, because it dosent exist
[/B]
Every "RAPTURE" thread has repeatedly been supported with Scripture...
But then...Also supported with Scripture IS the Spiritually BLIND, can not SEE, nor Do THEY LISTEN.

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens....

Probably NEWS TO YOU...
Don't know "your church"...But
"Christ's Church" is men "IN Christ".

1) Christ's Church is LIFTED UP...TO THE CLOUDS
1 Thes 4: 17

2) The Son of MAN, returns to Earth...
Matt 24:30
WITH POWER...
Matt 24:30
Matt which IS CHRIST
1 Cor 1:24
WITH 10 K .... Saints
Jude 1:14
WITH CLOUDS...Christ's Church
Rev 1:7

AND...YOU, who INSISTS YOU WILL STILL BE "an Occupant ON THE EARTH".... yes, you will be LOOKING UP...while I am looking DOWN...
BECAUSE EVERY OCCUPANT ON EARTH will be the UNSAVED...and when they LOOK UP AND SEE HIM....
THE TRIBES WILL MOURN Mat 24:30
THE UNSAVED WILL WAIL.... Rev 1:7

Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Cor 1:
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Jude 1
[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev 1
[7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds OF the earth shall WAIL because of him...

Since YOU WILL BE "ON EARTH"...
And YOU ARE A GENTILE...(not a tribesman in mourning)
You will BE LOOKING UP, seeing the Lord coming and screeching a high prolonged wail, of SORROW.

WAILING.....that's a WEIRD and AWKWARD response FOR (supposedly according to "your" preaching of your Church)...to have when SEEING the Lord for the First time...

Yep...You should have heeded the Warning about False Teaching... I do...and why I reject your claimed opinions.

And Speaking of NOT QUOTING SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR claimed opinions...
NOT ONCE have you quoted ONE Scirpture that EVEN HINTS, as what you are DOING ON EARTH "DURING the TRIBULATION"...
All you say is you are "PROTECTED"...
"FROM WHAT"? Earthquakes? Famines? Satan's Armies? Diseases? Biting Insects?
Pfff...

FUNNY... Earthly men ARE NOT "MARKED" with Gods SEAL "UNTIL AFTER they Physically DIE"...
( THE CLUE is, Men "IN" Christ are living "IN" Jesus' Risen BODY! Until they PHYSICALLY DIE! Duh! )

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Ya...uh....NO....you preach a corrupt opinion, which is Not supported By Scripture...and
IS REJECTED...

Don't be embarrassed for falling for false teaching....not too late to take off the blinders, open your ears and receive the TRUTH.

 

[Taken]

All the pretrib proof texts are out of context.

So you say. And your PROOF IS?
ZIP.

Ever notice how Anti-Rapturist...
NEVER...say:
What is their PURPOSE to be ON EARTH DURING the TRIBULATION?

NEVER...say;
What they ARE DOING?

I've NOTICED...Anti-rapturists ... simply promote their Anti-Rapture Opinions....
without, a lick of Scriptural Support; FOR their OPINIONS.

Matt 24;
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So .... IN CONTEXT....what do you say...
Matt 24 means ?

Was there "A" Great Tribulation "called the GREAT FLOOD", that KILLED every living thing "ON" the Earth?

AND "SHALL there BE "Another" (and LAST) Great Tribulation?
IF SO, in your opinion....WHAT EXACTLY SHALL BE KILLED "ON" the Earth?

 

[Truth7t7]

Not one scripture you have provided shows pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven

 

[Taken]

Not one scripture you have provided shows pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven

Still no answer for your purpose to be on earth during the trib.... NOT SURPRISED!

 

[Enoch111]

What shoots that theory down in flames, is Paul stating that it’s at His coming that we are gathered together to be with Him - so there isn’t a pre trib gathering at His non-coming-to -earth U turn in the sky, but instead occurs at the second coming of Jesus

This shoots down nothing. In fact it strengthens the Pre-Tribulation Rapture since only the saints are gathered together to be with Christ. There is no reference to the unsaved world or to His judgments upon it.

 

[Truth7t7]

This shoots down nothing. In fact it strengthens the Pre-Tribulation Rapture since only the saints are gathered together to be with Christ. There is no reference to the unsaved world or to His judgments upon it.

By all means, post scripture that you believe represents a pre-trib rapture, waiting?

 

[Truth7t7]

Still no answer for your purpose to be on earth during the trib.... NOT SURPRISED!

By all means, post scripture that you believe represents a pre-trib rapture, waiting?

 

[Truth7t7]

So you say. And your PROOF IS?
ZIP.

Ever notice how Anti-Rapturist...
NEVER...say:
What is their PURPOSE to be ON EARTH DURING the TRIBULATION?

NEVER...say;
What they ARE DOING?

I've NOTICED...Anti-rapturists ... simply promote their Anti-Rapture Opinions....
without, a lick of Scriptural Support; FOR their OPINIONS.

Matt 24;
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So .... IN CONTEXT....what do you say...
Matt 24 means ?

Was there "A" Great Tribulation "called the GREAT FLOOD", that KILLED every living thing "ON" the Earth?

AND "SHALL there BE "Another" (and LAST) Great Tribulation?
IF SO, in your opinion....WHAT EXACTLY SHALL BE KILLED "ON" the Earth?

Less talk more scripture, waiting?

 

[Truth7t7]

The Church is: Christ Jesus, and those who have committed to heartful belief in Christ Jesus.
Correct...neither Christ Jesus or His Church members are subject to Gods Wrath.



Dispensationalism has a broad spectrum of meanings, without my consideration, thus that comment is irrelevant.

Scripture teaches, there is nothing new under the sun. What was will be.
Scripture teaches...TWO Great Tribulations, whereby Gods Wrath Cearly AFFECTS the Inhabitants ON the Earth and the Earth itself.
One Great Tribulation has passed.
The Second and Last Great Tribulation is YET to come.

You should have Learned from the Historical words IN Scripture:
Who, What, When, Why, Where...
OF What Happened during the First Great Tribulation...
To comprehend ...
Nothing is new under the sun.
The Second and Last Great Tribulation IS the same concept as the First Great Tribulation



The Church...Christ Jesus IS In Heaven.
The Church...Men IN Christ, According to Scripture, shall be lifted up "from the face of the earth..."



TWO...witnesses....will rule the tribulation?
Pfff...Off on a tangent.
Witnesses are NOT RULERS!



Off on a tangent.
More of your irrelevant dispensationalism deflection.

BTW - the "god" of "this corrupt world"... the anti-Christ...has been here, Since Before mankind was created....and ruling the hearts and minds of ignorant and corrupt men, from the time mankind was created!

Do you actually read the Bible?



Moses/Arron against Pharaoh...
was NOT a Great Tribulation.
Pharaoh against Israel (Gods People), was God allowing His People, (who faultered in TRUSTING God,) to be allowed to be MADE "subject to" Pharaoh who ENSLAVED Gods People Israel.

Nothing NEW. Men will either submit to be Ruled BY God or Ruled by men.

Nothing new under the sun.
The Second and Last Great Tribulation is a "remake of similarity"... to the First Great Tribulation.

Compare apples to apples, to arrive at the Truth.

You are all over the place...dispensationalism; Pharoah, Moses, Arron, TWO witnesses....

None of that has anything to do with the Church being present ON Earth during the Tribulation.

Less talk more scripture, waiting?

 

[Truth7t7]

Israel, the Church, and the Rapture
OP ^


Israel - Gods People.
Yes.

Church - Christ Jesus "and" People, called out, who confess heartful belief, THAT:
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Yes.

Rapture - Lifting People "IN Christ" up, from the face of the Earth;
To escape Gods Wrath during Great Tribulation.
Yes.

Glory to God,
Taken

Not one scripture to support your claim, because they dont exist

 

[Taken]

Not one scripture to support your claim, because they dont exist

I accept "your" Hearts belief, to be on Earth during the Tribulation, IN your earthly flesh, and subject to Wrath...WITH ALL THE OTHERS WHO ARE "NOT" CALL UP.

The Lord God IS JUST!
You demanding to be on the Lords DO NOT CALL "UP" LIST, shall be as your heart desires.

Me....
You...

Freewill is Awesome!

 

[friend of]

I was reading a book on Revelation and I thought it was interesting that the mention of :the church" was nowhere to be found throughout most of it, signifying that the church will be removed during the Tribulation. Otherwise, surely there would be instructions to the elect throughout the middle of Revelation.

 

[Curtis]

So you say. And your PROOF IS?
ZIP.

Ever notice how Anti-Rapturist...
NEVER...say:
What is their PURPOSE to be ON EARTH DURING the TRIBULATION?

NEVER...say;
What they ARE DOING?

I've NOTICED...Anti-rapturists ... simply promote their Anti-Rapture Opinions....
without, a lick of Scriptural Support; FOR their OPINIONS.

Matt 24;
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So .... IN CONTEXT....what do you say...
Matt 24 means ?

Was there "A" Great Tribulation "called the GREAT FLOOD", that KILLED every living thing "ON" the Earth?

AND "SHALL there BE "Another" (and LAST) Great Tribulation?
IF SO, in your opinion....WHAT EXACTLY SHALL BE KILLED "ON" the Earth?

Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are unequivocally showing a mid trib rapture.

 

[Curtis]

I was reading a book on Revelation and I thought it was interesting that the mention of :the church" was nowhere to be found throughout most of it, signifying that the church will be removed during the Tribulation. Otherwise, surely there would be instructions to the elect throughout the middle of Revelation.

Illogical and incorrect

There will definitely be a tribulation church composed of all those who get saved after the mid trib rapture - these are seen by John in heaven, after they were martyred for not taking the mark - yet nothing is said about them either, during the tribulation.

Using your logic, they aren’t there, because they aren’t specifically mentioned until they show up in heaven.

That’s why scholars say that you can’t argue from silence - which is what pre tribbers do.

 

[Curtis]

So you say. And your PROOF IS?
ZIP.

Ever notice how Anti-Rapturist...
NEVER...say:
What is their PURPOSE to be ON EARTH DURING the TRIBULATION?

NEVER...say;
What they ARE DOING?

I've NOTICED...Anti-rapturists ... simply promote their Anti-Rapture Opinions....
without, a lick of Scriptural Support; FOR their OPINIONS.

Matt 24;
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So .... IN CONTEXT....what do you say...
Matt 24 means ?

Was there "A" Great Tribulation "called the GREAT FLOOD", that KILLED every living thing "ON" the Earth?

AND "SHALL there BE "Another" (and LAST) Great Tribulation?
IF SO, in your opinion....WHAT EXACTLY SHALL BE KILLED "ON" the Earth?

The key of understanding is the fact that there is general tribulation for 3.5 years, then great tribulation for 3.5 years, and Jesus uses both terms in Matthew 24.

Jesus says, that after THE tribulation of those days, the day of the Lord and rapture will occur- confirming that the rapture is after the first half of the tribulation.

Then, Jesus also says that AFTER the mid trib event of the abomination of desolation in verse 15 occurs, there shall be GREAT tribulation - confirming that the last half of the tribulation, called the great tribulation, occurs after that mid trib AOD event.

So the account is THE tribulation - the first 3.5 years - followed by the DOL and the rapture: then the GREAT tribulation starts, right after the AOD/SOP mid trib event, the DOL, and rapture occurs.

That puts the son of perdition/abomination of desolation, the Day of the Lord, and the rapture right smack in the middle, between THE tribulation, and the GREAT tribulation.

 

[Taken]

Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are unequivocally showing a mid trib rapture.

Could you be more vague?
Listing three chapters on a specific point?

 

[Curtis]

Could you be more vague?
Listing three chapters on a specific point?

They are all parallels accounts. If you study them and look for the timeline events of the abomination of desolation, and the day of the Lord, it becomes clear that the rapture found in those parallel accounts, is at the mid trib point in time.

 

[Curtis]

Matthew 24; Luke 21; Mark 13

The abomination of desolation, the day of the lord, and the rapture.

The abomination of desolation:


Mat 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation,which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

Mat 24:16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:


Luk 21:20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.

Luk 21:21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.


Mar 13:14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:

Mar 13:15 and let him that is on the housetop not go down, nor enter in, to take anything out of his house:




Day of the Lord:


Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows;

Luk 21:26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.


Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mar 13:25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.




Rapture:


Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,and they shall gather togetherhis elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



The key of understanding is the fact that there is general tribulation for 3.5 years, then great tribulation for 3.5 years, and Jesus uses both terms in Matthew 24.


Jesus says, that after THE tribulation of those days, the day of the Lord and rapture will occur- confirming that the rapture is after the first half of the tribulation.


Then, Jesus also says that AFTER the mid trib event of the abomination of desolation in verse 15 occurs, there shall be GREAT tribulation - confirming that the last half of the tribulation, called the great tribulation, occurs after that mid trib AOD event.


So the account is THE tribulation - the first 3.5 years - followed by the AOD, the DOL and the rapture: then the GREAT tribulation starts, right after the AOD mid trib event, the DOL, and rapture occurs.


That puts the abomination of desolation, the Day of the Lord, and the rapture right smack in the middle, between THE tribulation, and the GREAT tribulation.

 

[Truman]

I happen to have the idea that there will be a pre-trib rapture. I also think that Israel is a distinct nation chosen by God, and that God will continue to fulfill His promises to Jacob's children.

I know a number of people who are not pre-trib in their understanding of when the rapture will occur, and who also see in some fashion that the Church is now Israel.

Is there anyone who sees Israel and the Church separately as I do, and who is not pre-trib?

Much love!

First off...the word church, carries a duo meaning.
1. The body of believers in Jesus.
2. The man-made denominations, institutions, buildings, and various theologies, doctrines and traditions that go along with these.
The word used in the original manuscripts was the Greek word, "ecclesia." Which translates as congregation, assembly or gathering.
This word can apply to any group of people, regardless of their belief regarding God.
The word congregation is used in both covenants.
Instead of translating ecclesia correctly to congregation, the KJV translators added the word church. I say added, as God's word cannot be broken.
Before I get attacked again for trying to change "your Christian bible," may I remind you that it was written by Hebrews, though it wasn't Jews who added the word church.
My goal here is to put things into proper perspective before we talk about the relationship between Israel and the church.
I see Israel, to whom anyone could join, and the church, as one continuous congregation that had a change in the covenant with God. See Jeremiah 31:31-34
I hope this helps.

 

[Curtis]

First off...the word church, carries a duo meaning.
1. The body of believers in Jesus.
2. The man-made denominations, institutions, buildings, and various theologies, doctrines and traditions that go along with these.
The word used in the original manuscripts was the Greek word, "ecclesia." Which translates as congregation, assembly or gathering.
This word can apply to any group of people, regardless of their belief regarding God.
The word congregation is used in both covenants.
Instead of translating ecclesia correctly to congregation, the KJV translators added the word church. I say added, as God's word cannot be broken.
Before I get attacked again for trying to change "your Christian bible," may I remind you that it was written by Hebrews, though it wasn't Jews who added the word church.
My goal here is to put things into proper perspective before we talk about the relationship between Israel and the church.
I see Israel, to whom anyone could join, and the church, as one continuous congregation that had a change in the covenant with God. See Jeremiah 31:31-34
I hope this helps.

There’s no controversy, you stated it right.

The Greek word for church - kuriakos - is not found in the New Testament, and ecclesia is a secular word that means called out (invited) to an assembly -( a PTA meeting is also an ecclesia), that was incorrectly mistranslated as church.

I’ve seen ecclesia defined as “the called out ones” trying to make it into Calvinistic election, but that’s not the meaning of that word.