Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!

[Ferris Bueller]

Lol.....I am one of the few in here to Believe “Nothing But The Blood”....... nothing else......no additions.....and you say that I am “ religious” .....I am the Least Religious person on this or any other Forum I have found myself in....hands down! You don’t know the “ difference “ between Christianity and Religion....You think Christianity “ IS” a Religion....That is your downfall....

By pure definition, yes, Christianity is a religion (James 1:27). But Christianity is not a 'religion' in regard to it being cold, dead, legalistic liturgical worship of God. That's why I usually put the word 'religion' in single quotes when I am referring to the negative connotation associated with the word religion.

 

[Grailhunter]

We agree !

FYI- most calvinist I know personally do not by into the grace covers our sin and its ok to sin because of Gods grace argument. Grace is NEVER a license to sin.

I stand firmly against the theology of Calvinism. But all things in perspective...I am multi-denominational and have known and worshipped with many Calvinists, and mostly I have find them to be good people in a cordial manner.

I do not believe that God determined who would go to heaven or hell before creation. It would defeat the purpose of anything.
I do not believe that God is monstrous puppet master that predestines everything down to snowflakes and controls every thought and movement so as to turn us into puppets...again fails the logic test...defeating any purpose, makes all really a puppet show, and make God out to be very sinister.
And I do not like their attitude toward women in general and their place in the church or the family.

 

[amigo de christo]

I stand firmly against the theology of Calvinism. But all things in perspective...I am multi-denominational and have known and worshipped with many Calvinists, and mostly I have find them to be good people in a cordial manner.

I do not believe that God determined who would go to heaven or hell before creation. It would defeat the purpose of anything.
I do not believe that God is monstrous puppet master that predestines everything down to snowflakes and controls every thought and movement so as to turn us into puppets...again fails the logic test...defeating any purpose, makes all really a puppet show, and make God out to be very sinister.
And I do not like their attitude toward women in general and their place in the church or the family.

I am gonna sum this up real simply my friend .
When calvin taught tulip , he should not have flapped those two lips , but rather should have stuck to that bible .

 

[Grailhunter]

I am gonna sum this up real simply my friend .
When calvin taught tulip , he should not have flapped those two lips , but rather should have stuck to that bible .

Now that is the proverbial mouthful! The Protestants have a lot of denominations but the Catholics took a nose dive right off the bat
...and it is all about sticking to the Bible as a foundation. We can discuss what we learned since the Bible...You have to understand what the Bible says, and even as important you have understand the spirit of the Bible....and this is where I think the Holy Spirit comes in big time.

 

[amigo de christo]

Now that is the proverbial mouthful! The Protestants have a lot of denominations but the Catholics took a nose dive right off the bat
...and it is all about sticking to the Bible as a foundation. We can discuss what we learned since the Bible...You have to understand what the Bible says, and even as important you have understand the spirit of the Bible....and this is where I think the Holy Spirit comes in big time.

Its like i told thee faith . who often defends that dark place .
Its true the protestant realm is ushering in an all out river of deception . And i mean A RIVER .
But the RCC has pumped in an ocean of deception . So much delusion , so much hopeless abounds in so many places now .
JESUS CHRIST is the only hope and we had better learn those bibles well . Its all i can say unto this generation .
POINT TO CHRIST , but make sure its the biblical one . Stay in that bible and cling to the Spirit and heed not the flesh .

 

[BloodBought 1953]

'For what does the Scripture say?
.. "Abraham believed God,
.... and it was counted to him for righteousness."
But to him working,
.. the reward is not reckoned according to grace,
.... but according to debt.
But to him not working,
.. but believing on Him justifying the ungodly,
.... his faith is counted for righteousness.'
(Rom 4:3 mkjv)

Hello @Blood Bought,

I agree with your OP, but did not feel I could endorse it with a 'like'(Rom 4:3), because of your use of the word hell, which simply means 'the place of the dead' or 'the grave'. 'The wages of sin is death'. Hell is the repository of the dead. The 'damned' you refer to have forfeited the right to 'the gift of life' through unbelief. They have been judged and found wanting, and are subject to the second death.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Picky....picky.....lol....

 

[Addy]

@Blood Bought 1953 ... You're late...

 

[charity]

Picky....picky.....lol....

I suggest you grow up,

 

[BloodBought 1953]

He says grace—the part that we all agree on—is the reason you can reject Christ in unbelief after being saved and you remain saved. Everyone seems oblivious to this new Hyper Grace theology sweeping through the church except those who have fallen for it.

Even “ I” understand the difficulty of accepting this belief.....Common senses says “ No Way!”..... Not too many years ago , we would have been in agreement.....

Having said all of that, there are some verses that I just can’t get around or dismiss....such as, “If we are UNFAITHFUL—- He REMAINS Faithful—- He can not deny Himself” or “HE will FINISH the work that He started” or “ Anybody that asks to be Saved WILL be SAVED” .....it’s an unconditional Promise Of God .....HE made these Promises.....The Onus to Save is on God’s shoulders .....God knew that the-possibility existed that a man could have Faith and then lose it......God did NOT say “ If you Turn to me with Faith in Jesus Christ , I will Save you to the Uttermost, But * ONLY* if you never fall into unbelief”

In my Own life, I was a Believer in my youth, became a Solid Atheist in my College years and by the Amazing Grace Of God , came back to Belief , thanks to God leading me to gifted Teachers of the Word that showed me the True Gospel Of Grace as opposed to the False Gospels That had me poorly taught and “ Fallen From Grace” completely unawares.....

It was the same old sad story....”Sure, Jesus Saves—- But once you know “THAT”—- you gotta be “ good enough” to make it to Heaven....Jesus died for your sins alright—- but only you PAST sins....NOW it is up to YOU to “ Make Yourself Worthy”....... Any Of this HogWash sound familiar? Thanks to proper teaching, I discovered that I was “ MADE WORTHY” by the Blood Of The Lamb...My life has never been the same since....God now indwells me and has changed my life for the better....MUCH better....and it is All His Doing....God gets ALL of the Glory,and BB gets None.....just like God wants it....

 

[Grailhunter]

Even “ I” understand the difficulty of accepting this belief.....Common senses says “ No Way!”..... Not too many years ago , we would have been in agreement.....

Having said all of that, there are some verses that I just can’t get around or dismiss....such as, “If we are UNFAITHFUL—- He REMAINS Faithful—- He can not deny Himself” or “HE will FINISH the work that He started” or “ Anybody that asks to be Saved WILL be SAVED” .....it’s an unconditional Promise Of God .....HE made these Promises.....The Onus to Save is on God’s shoulders .....God knew that the-possibility existed that a man could have Faith and then lose it......God did NOT say “ If you Turn to me with Faith in Jesus Christ , I will Save you to the Uttermost, But * ONLY* if you never fall into unbelief”

In my Own life, I was a Believer in my youth, became a Solid Atheist in my College years and by the Amazing Grace Of God , came back to Belief , thanks to God leading me to gifted Teachers of the Word that showed me the True Gospel Of Grace as opposed to the False Gospels That had me poorly taught and “ Fallen From Grace” completely unawares.....

It was the same old sad story....”Sure, Jesus Saves—- But once you know “THAT”—- you gotta be “ good enough” to make it to Heaven....Jesus died for your sins alright—- but only you PAST sins....NOW it is up to YOU to “ Make Yourself Worthy”....... Any Of this HogWash sound familiar? Thanks to proper teaching, I discovered that I was “ MADE WORTHY” by the Blood Of The Lamb...My life has never been the same since....God now indwells me and has changed my life for the better....MUCH better....and it is All His Doing....God gets ALL of the Glory,and BB gets None.....just like God wants it....

See notes #2, #3, #7, and #11

Be good and do good!

1..No one is saying that being good and doing good has anything do with being initially saved, everyone agrees that, that is through Christ.

2..No one here is saying that being good and doing good justifies us, it all about the biblical requirement to be obedience to Christ.

3..I am saying that being good and doing good is what Christians are repeatedly told to do. Being good and doing good is obedience to Christ. I mean really, what is the alternative that is being proposed here by some.

4..I am saying that sinful lifestyles can lead to hell...whether they believe in Christ or not.

5..I am not saying that sinful lifestyles cannot be forgiven. Even towards the end someone that has committed the worst of horrible sins or a sinful lifestyle can repent and be forgiven. That is all depends on sincerity and Christ will know the intentions and truths of the heart and will judge according. But that is Christ's choice to send that Christian to heaven or hell. I do contend that a change of heart at the last minute and expecting forgiveness is very risky, because, could someone like Hitler or serial killers change their character in that last few moments of their life? Not saying I know, but I would debate it.

6..I am saying that repentance is required to be initially saved. That repentance is not only acknowledging that you have sinned but a commitment to obey and be good and do good....the best you can. Salvation was not designed for perfection. Then after one is saved and commits sins, that repentance is required to get those sins forgiven. Again a commitment not to keep doing the same sin over and over again. It is not wrong for Christ to expect us to learn from our mistakes...we maybe slow learners but...

7..No one here is saying that you have to be perfect to go to heaven.

8..Then again, heaven is not going to be full of evildoers.

9..No one is saying that being good and doing good is salvation. It is obedience to Christ.

10..And the Bible says over and over again that we should obey Christ and our deeds will be judged, come Judgment Day.

11..Alternatively sins can lead to hell, particularly lifestyle sins because you cannot repent for something you intend to do or even continue to do. You cannot play Christ for a fool. You cannot con Christ, he know the heart and the intent.

12..I do contend that your average Christian will show up on Judgment Day and pass with flying colors.


13..In regard to sins, what is being discussed here is mostly lifestyle sins.

14..No one is saying that there is a biblical requirement to ask forgiveness for every sin or to remember every sin. Just ask forgiveness in one of your daily prayers.

The disclaimer....if you are so messed up in the head that you cannot control your actions....that is still between you and Christ on Judgment Day and that is up to Him. On the other hand if this is you, and you cannot control your actions, you need to seek psychiatric help, because who knows what harm you could do to yourself or others.

 

[Grailhunter]

Even “ I” understand the difficulty of accepting this belief.....Common senses says “ No Way!”..... Not too many years ago , we would have been in agreement.....

Having said all of that, there are some verses that I just can’t get around or dismiss....such as, “If we are UNFAITHFUL—- He REMAINS Faithful—- He can not deny Himself” or “HE will FINISH the work that He started” or “ Anybody that asks to be Saved WILL be SAVED” .....it’s an unconditional Promise Of God .....HE made these Promises.....The Onus to Save is on God’s shoulders .....God knew that the-possibility existed that a man could have Faith and then lose it......God did NOT say “ If you Turn to me with Faith in Jesus Christ , I will Save you to the Uttermost, But * ONLY* if you never fall into unbelief”

In my Own life, I was a Believer in my youth, became a Solid Atheist in my College years and by the Amazing Grace Of God , came back to Belief , thanks to God leading me to gifted Teachers of the Word that showed me the True Gospel Of Grace as opposed to the False Gospels That had me poorly taught and “ Fallen From Grace” completely unawares.....

It was the same old sad story....”Sure, Jesus Saves—- But once you know “THAT”—- you gotta be “ good enough” to make it to Heaven....Jesus died for your sins alright—- but only you PAST sins....NOW it is up to YOU to “ Make Yourself Worthy”....... Any Of this HogWash sound familiar? Thanks to proper teaching, I discovered that I was “ MADE WORTHY” by the Blood Of The Lamb...My life has never been the same since....God now indwells me and has changed my life for the better....MUCH better....and it is All His Doing....God gets ALL of the Glory,and BB gets None.....just like God wants it....

I have proven you wrong at every turn, not only biblically but also just basic logic. The humor of this is that, I win either way as long as the scriptures mean anything to you. So if you stick with the Bible, if a Christian believes that they should do their best to obey Christ and that they should repent and ask forgiveness for their sins, and keep their sins to a minimum, and have no lifestyle sins, they are good to go. Judgment Day is a real thing and the Bible outlines several times what will be judged.

Alternatively, if a Christian believes that their sins are automatically covered by the blood of Christ and they also believe what the Bible says about obeying Christ. They also will keep their sins to a minimum and then of course would not have any lifestyle sins, then theoretically they are good to go too…..theoretically, because they are betting on the fact that they do not have to repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness for their sins…good luck. You do not want to show up on Judgment Day with a soul full of sins. Besides that, when you pray to God, what else are you going to say to Him….Tell Him everything that is bothering you and asking for everything you want….not even mention your sins. Some treat God like He is some sort of a Psychiatric Genie.

The real issue here is the belief that any and all sins are automatically covered, no matter how severe or even if they are lifestyle sins. Then any and all manner of evil is awarded heaven. So that God and good Christians are damned to spend eternity in heaven with all those of horrible character and total evil. That would mostly describe hell. It would be a horror! Would you want your kids and grand-kids sentenced to that? How is that a reward? You have to put things in motion and consider the ramifications of your beliefs.

If God wanted all manner of evil in heaven, that would change a good part of the Bible. We would be worshiping a God of evil, and the morals of the Bible would completely shift to evil. This is a new belief for sure because if the early Christians believed this, Christians would have been known to be the scum of earth all through history. Even Pagans have more morals than this. Christianity would have sided with all that is evil and the world would have Satan as their god and the world would have become his domain forever.

BE GOOD AND DO GOOD!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Having said all of that, there are some verses that I just can’t get around or dismiss....such as, “If we are UNFAITHFUL—- He REMAINS Faithful—- He can not deny Himself”

Stop omitting vs. 12 just before this verse and it will make sense to you:

12 ...if we deny Him, He will also deny us;
13 if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.​

'Denying him', and 'being faithless' have to be two different things because they have two different outcomes. If you are faithless, He remains faithful to you. IOW, you don't lose your salvation. That's different than denying Him, because if you deny him, he will deny you. That means you don't belong to him, because if you did belong to Him He would not deny you because He can't deny Himself. Does this mean you never belonged to Him? I don't know. And it doesn't matter. He will deny you either way. That's what Paul said happens to the person who denies Him.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

or “HE will FINISH the work that He started” or “ Anybody that asks to be Saved WILL be SAVED” .....it’s an unconditional Promise Of God .

No, it is not an unconditional promise of God. Right in your favorite 'nothing but the blood' gospel passage (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Paul says you have keep believing in order to be saved by the gospel:

"2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." 1 Corinthians 15:2
​

So you can see the promise of God for salvation is conditional. It's just not conditional on you performing works of righteousness to EARN salvation. It's conditional on you continuing to hold firmly to the word of the gospel you heard in the beginning. John says the same thing:

"24 As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:24
​

All the verses of scripture about God's promise to 'finish what he started', 'give you eternal life', etc. are promises for believing people—those who are presently believing. They are not promises to those who fall away into unbelief. The promises are conditioned on present, continued believing. You can not stop believing and still have the promises. They are for believers, not unbelievers.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

God knew that the-possibility existed that a man could have Faith and then lose it......God did NOT say “ If you Turn to me with Faith in Jesus Christ , I will Save you to the Uttermost, But * ONLY* if you never fall into unbelief”

As I've shown you, this simply is not true. You are saved if you hold firmly to the gospel. It's right there in your favorite 'nothing but the blood' gospel passage.

I do give credit to the Hyper Grace gospel for acknowledging that saved people really can fall in unbelief. But that is not an important matter to squabble about. Because whether or not a true believer can fall into unbelief doesn't change the fact that you have to continue to believe in order to be saved.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In my Own life, I was a Believer in my youth, became a Solid Atheist in my College years and by the Amazing Grace Of God , came back to Belief , thanks to God leading me to gifted Teachers of the Word that showed me the True Gospel Of Grace as opposed to the False Gospels That had me poorly taught and “ Fallen From Grace” completely unawares.

And as I've said before, you probably were not a genuinely saved person in your youth. Look at your own words. You say you had been poorly taught. Obviously, the false gospel you say you were taught did not lead you to a genuine salvation experience. Can a false gospel do that? So, you did not fall away. You probably were never really saved to begin with.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It was the same old sad story....”Sure, Jesus Saves—- But once you know “THAT”—- you gotta be “ good enough” to make it to Heaven....Jesus died for your sins alright—- but only you PAST sins....NOW it is up to YOU to “ Make Yourself Worthy”....... Any Of this HogWash sound familiar?

Of course it sounds familiar. That's the gospel of unsaved people. I grew up in the Methodist and Presbyterian churches. I'm not knocking everybody who goes to those churches. I know there are exceptions. And I know there are genuinely saved people and ministers in those churches. One was instrumental in planting some of the first seeds of the gospel into me. And he was very excited to later learn I had become born again. It's sad that these genuinely saved members and ministers of these lost denominations are suffocated in those churches.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Thanks to proper teaching, I discovered that I was “ MADE WORTHY” by the Blood Of The Lamb...My life has never been the same since....God now indwells me and has changed my life for the better....MUCH better....and it is All His Doing....God gets ALL of the Glory,and BB gets None.....just like God wants it.

Amen! "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord!" 2 Corinthians 10:17

I'm boasting with you. I'm changed. I'm different. I have a new life. It's like I've been.....uh.....born again! My life started over on January 26th 1986, and I've been growing up into that new life ever since. I'm not going to pretend that God has not done a wonderful thing in life so that others won't get offended. I'm not playing that PC game. I'm different and I'm going to boast about it, in the Lord!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Here is a real simple truth . GOD KNOWS ALL THINGS . He knows all our works , whether good or evil
GOD knows . Though folks do not want to hear this . They had rather envision and worship a god that serves their own basic desires .

May God have Mercy on those types.....I am sure glad that I am not one of them....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Follow me around a bit . I dont just warn , you will see many praises and many reminders about JESUS .
But dont let the warnings scare you . They are often GENERAL warnings . IF i actually SEE someone in a sin
BELIEVE YOU ME , you will see me openly correct them . But i just type and etc as i am led .
Every warning to every promise in that bible really is good for our souls . Beholding both the SEVERITY and GOODNESS of GOD
is truly GOOD for our souls .

Addy....you and others should know that “Amigo” is a spy for the Legalism King, ” Butero” who runs a “Lucky Repentance” Forum group ironically called “ The Narrow Way”..... if you want to be an “Accuser Of The Brethren” , this is the place for you! Just like in Paul’s Day, they come in here to “ Spy out our Freedom”

 

[BloodBought 1953]

This post resonated with me very much.

Regardless of where people stand regarding this debate, I'd like to thank @BarnyFife and @Blood Bought 1953 for a great, thought-provoking conversation. I have enjoyed this thread very much and am grateful to have come across it. Bless you both!

Oops.....didn’t mean to post, but while I am here....thank you very much, Brother..