I have a question that remains unanswered:

[Robert Gwin]

Is there any particular reason you chose not to address Isaiah 9:6?

Is Jesus God? — His enemies recognized His claim to be God.

Take for example the words of Jesus in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33, emphasis added). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” This is a reference back to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” The Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

Is Jesus God? — His followers declared Him to be God.

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as God, indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. Beyond these, there are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus being God.

Is Jesus God? — The reason Jesus must be God.

The most important reason that Jesus must be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death. God is the only being in the universe that possesses life unborrowed.

Is Jesus God? Yes. Jesus declared Himself to be God. His followers believed Him to be God. The provision of salvation only works if Jesus is God. Jesus is God incarnate, the eternal Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 22:13), and God our Savior (2 Peter 1:1).

We can look into this further if you like, taking one of your verses of proof at a time. You seem to be indicating that John 10:30 means that Jesus is Jehovah right?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus did not lie in those verses, but clearly you have not really understood their significance. And you never will unless you believe that Jesus is God.

Now here's the thing that is ironical. You use the name "Jesus" in your quote above, but did you know that that name itself tells you that Jesus is God? Jesus is the English equivalent of Yeshua, and Yeshua is derived from two Hebrew words: YAH + SHUA. Which mean YAHWEH (GOD) IS SALVATION! And that is why Jesus was called EMMANUEL which means GOD WITH US! But Jesus also declared publicly that He is "I AM" and "I AM" is the name of the Lord God Almighty. He also said that unless you believe that He is "I AM" you will die in your sins.

Do you now see why the JWs are so deluded and brainwashed that they do not even know what words mean. The Watchtower Society has done a great job in creating a cult. At the same time many JWs have had their eyes opened and rejected all the nonsense of the Watchtower people.

Where did Jesus publicly declare that I AM, and where is I AM ever given as the name of God Enoch?

 

[BarneyFife]

We can look into this further if you like, taking one of your verses of proof at a time. You seem to be indicating that John 10:30 means that Jesus is Jehovah right?

I don't mean to indicate anything. I'm just quoting Scripture to provoke thought. I can tell you upfront and honestly that 30+ years ago when the question was first brought to my mind I took, from the evidence I could find, that Jesus is God every bit as much as the Father, as was the Holy Spirit, but I have never contended it in a debate because people who are more intelligent than I could always readily bring more sophisticated arguments than I, which does not convince me that I have erred on this or any other doctrinal point. Spiritual things are not exclusively, intellectually discerned, in my view. As I have said previously, I believe there is room within the larger church, worldwide, for variance, so I'm not sure that I am worth your time or effort. It would take a very convincing argument indeed to cause me to re-investigate the matter thoroughly. So far, all I have encountered, in this and other threads especially featuring the forum member named Wrangler, is an "us-and-them" type of striving for supremacy, in which I am not the slightest bit interested. If the discussion can be kept civil and above insults and implications of condescension, I could perhaps be interested enough to engage. I have never thought of the trinitarian position as being a fitting label for my faith. I am never as desperate, it seems, to advocate for trinitarianism a fraction as desperately as others are on either side of the question. It might be honest for me to note that I have no burden to answer exacting questions that are asked with specific, demanding parameters. It is a manipulative tactic that I resist almost automatically.

 

[GEN2REV]

Well, ... no.

God can't die. I'm seeing more and more threads claiming, and really driving home the idea, that Jesus died.

His physical body of corruptible flesh died, just as ours will. But just as our souls will not be destroyed, unless we are barred from the kingdom of heaven, His soul did not die. He still paid the ultimate price for our sins.

I'm afraid we're at odds here. My take is that God breathed into the nostrils of man and he became a living soul. Not that he has a soul, but that he is a soul.

The Bible seems to claim and drive it home.

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. (Acts 5:30)​

After reading this yesterday, I remembered some things that don't follow this logic at all.

First, Jesus gave up His Spirit on the Cross at the moment of death.
"And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His Spirit. (separated His Spirit from His physical body)
His Spirit is the Holy Spirit. It cannot die.

After His resurrection, Jesus teaches His apostles and disciples that He is God and He is eternal when He sets them down to tell them all about His Testimony. The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy and the story of His Life on the earth. And guess what? It didn't begin with His birth from Mary and it didn't end with His Crucifixion. Take a look.

"Then He said to them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His Glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." (He told them about His history on the earth from the beginning of time)
Luke 24:25-27

Jesus is not a created being. He is God. (John 1:1, 14) That is a much longer debate, but He is unequivocallly God. God is eternal; He has no beginning and no end. Thus, He cannot die. If He was alive before He was born, then, clearly, He cannot die.

When John in Revelation tries to worship an angel, the angel says to him,

"See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy." (a Spirit that cannot die, the Holy Spirit that taught all prophets from the time of Creation - an eternal Spirit that cannot die - Jesus Christ)

 

[Nancy]

Faith is not built on perhaps or maybe...it is built on certainties.

Hebrews 11:1...
"Now faith is the certainty of things hoped for, a proof of things not seen."

Simply a "suggestion". And I do believe we are allowed to post them here.
BTW welcome to the site.

 

[amadeus]

Faith is not built on perhaps or maybe...it is built on certainties.

Hebrews 11:1...
"Now faith is the certainty of things hoped for, a proof of things not seen."

It is our direction which needs to be certain. Alone it cannot be:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem 10:23

We do need a Director, a Leader, a Teacher:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:7-8

 

[BarneyFife]

After reading this yesterday, I remembered some things that don't follow this logic at all.

First, Jesus gave up His Spirit on the Cross at the moment of death.
"And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His Spirit. (separated His Spirit from His physical body)
His Spirit is the Holy Spirit. It cannot die.

After His resurrection, Jesus teaches His apostles and disciples that He is God and He is eternal when He sets them down to tell them all about His Testimony. The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy and the story of His Life on the earth. And guess what? It didn't begin with His birth from Mary and it didn't end with His Crucifixion. Take a look.

"Then He said to them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His Glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." (He told them about His history on the earth from the beginning of time)
Luke 24:25-27

Jesus is not a created being. He is God. (John 1:1, 14) That is a much longer debate, but He is unequivocallly God. God is eternal; He has no beginning and no end. Thus, He cannot die. If He was alive before He was born, then, clearly, He cannot die.

When John in Revelation tries to worship an angel, the angel says to him,

"See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy." (a Spirit that cannot die, the Holy Spirit that taught all prophets from the time of Creation - an eternal Spirit that cannot die - Jesus Christ)

Soul and spirit are not the same thing, and with regards to Jesus being God, you're preaching to the choir.

 

[GEN2REV]

Soul and spirit are not the same thing, and with regards to Jesus being God, you're preaching to the choir.

Ok.

So, based on the information I presented there, can you still believe that Jesus died? That His Spirit died?

I proved that He existed eternally prior to his physical birth on earth. Doesn't that prove that He didn't die when He was crucified?

He does, after all, claim that He couldn't send the Comforter, the Helper, the Holy Spirit until AFTER His crucifixion. Doesn't that tell us that He survived death spiritually?

" ... if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you."
John 16:7

Surely this is contradictory data to what you are claiming. No?

 

[amadeus]

Soul and spirit are not the same thing, and with regards to Jesus being God, you're preaching to the choir.

Hello my friend! Finding yourself there often these days... in the choir that is? LOL! Maybe you are catching up with me in age? My wife is always reminding me that I am 7 years older than her. After so many years together, I wish she would hurry up and catch up with me...

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us." Ecc 1:9-10

 

[Wrangler]

Spiritual things are not exclusively, intellectually discerned, in my view.

Axiomatic of mystics to deny intellectual clarity through logical and objective means.

I don't mean to indicate anything.

Another axiomatic tell of mysticism. You do but you don’t.

I submit that doctrine is not a spiritual thing but a roadmap to a spiritual thing. Means. Ends. Not the same thing.

when the question was first brought to my mind I took, from the evidence I could find, that Jesus is God every bit as much as the Father, as was the Holy Spirit

From the evidence you could find for the proposition? No looking to find evidence against the proposition?

It would take a very convincing argument indeed to cause me to re-investigate the matter thoroughly

I see. While such observations as the trinity - neither word nor doctrine - is actually in the Bible, it does not rise to the standard of being ‘a very convincing argument.’

Not sure why the absence of explicit evidence is not a compelling fact. As for an argument, not sure why arguing for a proposition that lacks explicit textual support is not compelling against the proposition.

an "us-and-them" type of striving for supremacy,

Thought you weren’t intending to indicate anything?

For what it is worth, such threads are not about people but ideas. The supremacy of bad ideas cannot be good.

 

[BarneyFife]

Thank you for your response.

So, based on the information I presented there, can you still believe that Jesus died? That His Spirit died?

He died fully. A human spirit has no life. It is merely breath on loan from God.

I proved that He existed eternally prior to his physical birth on earth.

You didn't prove it but you gave sufficient evidence to convince me, mostly because I already believed it.

Doesn't that prove that He didn't die when He was crucified?

No, it does not.

He does, after all, claim that He couldn't send the Comforter, the Helper, the Holy Spirit until AFTER His crucifixion. Doesn't that tell us that He survived death spiritually?

He didn't survive death in any way. He was resurrected.

Surely this is contradictory data to what you are claiming. No?

No, it isn't, given the entire testimony of Scripture. I am not the best to explain these things. Some feel that disqualifies me from even discussing them.

Here is a good primer on mortality:

Are the Dead Really Dead?

 

[BarneyFife]

Hello my friend! Finding yourself there often these days... in the choir that is? LOL! Maybe you are catching up with me in age? My wife is always reminding me that I am 7 years older than her. After so many years together, I wish she would hurry up and catch up with me...

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us." Ecc 1:9-10

My dad insists I'm catching up with him when he calls me on my birthday every year. He's close to your age. He was only 19 when I was born. My poor mother, rest her soul, was a year older. She suffered greatly. But she believed God was watching over her.

 

[BarneyFife]

@GEN2REV
Here is more info on "the soul."

Living Souls
When man had been created from the dust, what did he become?
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7.

To what other order of beings is the term soul applied?
"And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep." Num. 31:28.

Is the term "living souls" applied to anything besides man and beast?
"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." Rev. 16:3.

Can a soul suffer thirst?
"As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country." Prov. 25:25.

May it also suffer hunger?
"Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger." Prov. 19:15.

Is it capable of eating?
"But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the Lord, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people." Lev. 7:20.

Can it be injured?
"And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword." Joshua 11:11.

Can the soul die?
"Behold, all souls are Mine, as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Eze. 18:4.

What is said of the soul of Christ?
"Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He hath poured out His soul unto death." Isa. 53:12.

What becomes of the soul at death?
"What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?" Ps. 89:48.

Where did Christ's soul go at His death?
"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell [hades], neither His flesh did see corruption." Acts 2:31.
NOTE: His soul went into the grave, but was not left there, He being raised on the third day.

 

[Wrangler]

I proved that He existed eternally prior to his physical birth on earth.

Asserted, not proven. The Bible says Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. The Bible also says in John 3:16 that Jesus was begotten, which means created, specifically pro-created.

 

[BarneyFife]

Doesn't that prove that He didn't die when He was crucified?

To be truly fair to this question, Christ did say that He has the power to lay down His life, and take it up again. I don't know how He can do this in an unconscious state, but I believe what He says even when I don't understand it. I'm not sure, but I believe in other parts of Scripture it says the Father raised Him from the dead, but that doesn't bother me because Christ said They were One. I find it easy to believe stuff I don't understand if "it is written." My great-grandmother said it was a gift.

 

[GEN2REV]

... can you still believe that Jesus died? That His Spirit died?

He died fully. A human spirit has no life. It is merely breath on loan from God.

On the contrary.
Jesus speaking:
"It is the Spirit that quickeneth (gives SPIRITUAL life); the flesh profiteth (IS) nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE.
Our human spirit is given life, fed, by Jesus' Spirit.
There is ABSOLUTELY life in Spirit, most specifically God's (Jesus') Spirit.

I proved that He existed eternally prior to his physical birth on earth.

You didn't prove it but you gave sufficient evidence to convince me, mostly because I already believed it.

For me, the Bible holds very significant weight of evidence. If it is written that Jesus taught His disciples that He lived through the words of every prophet that has lived, and served Him, since Creation, then, by Holy God, He lived. IT IS PROOF. Sadly, the Bible is not significant to most these days.

He didn't survive death in any way. He was resurrected.

His soul went on just as ours will.
(see below)

@GEN2REV
Living Souls
When man had been created from the dust, what did he become?
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7.

He became a physical body that HAS a soul. We ARE our soul. We ARE NOT our physical body. This does not contradict scripture as you see here:

" ... fear not them which kill the (physical) body, BUT ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both SOUL AND BODY in hell."

Yes, they are TWO SEPARATE THINGS. We are a body that HAS a SOUL.

Yes, you may believe what you wish, but when you are presenting your belief DESPITE clear scripture, I only hope to inform you of Biblical data you either are not aware of, or are intentionally ignoring. We have maintained a civil discourse here, Fife, and I intend to keep it that way so don't misunderstand any of my interaction. I am only passionate about Truth.

In the end times, the devil will destroy many people's bodies as they refuse to renounce their faith in Jesus Christ, the Living God who did not - and can not - ever die, but their souls will survive and stand before God.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their SLEEP."
Job 14:12
" ... they also which are fallen asleep in Christ ..."
1 Corinthians 15:18

Bottom line:
It is our SOUL that will be judged when all is said and done, not our corruptible flesh physical body. That is already lost in a sinful state since The Fall in Eden.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Rev 3:14

You show your ignorance of Greek and your willingness to be force fed the Watchtower line!

Beginning is arche which means premier or ruler it is a word of authority and not numerical order. As jesus is heir of the universe and ruler of all things- this word wouldbe better defined as supreme of the Creation as He created it. Sorry but that hippopotamus form the Watchtower just don't fly!

 

[BarneyFife]

or are intentionally ignoring.

This is not civil discourse, and it's the kind of thing that goes on here all the time. And I can tell by your formatting of words that the discussion is bound to get heated. We are at an impasse.

 

[GEN2REV]

This is not civil discourse, and it's the kind of thing that goes on here all the time. And I can tell by your formatting of words that the discussion is bound to get heated. We are at an impasse.

That's ok, Fife. I've known for a long time that you are not who you say you are. Almost everybody on these Christian forums that formats their posts, and letters, the way you do, is not who they appear to be. You can rest assured I won't waste my time getting heated with you about anything though. This forum, and all its mods, are against me so I don't stand a chance with the deck stacked like that.

Only here to reveal, teach and support Truth; and, despite all of those here's best efforts, I am succeeding.

God bless you all anyway and let's get on with it.

BTW: Nice goat.

 

[BarneyFife]

I've known for a long time that you are not who you say you are.

More thinly-veiled insults. Nice. What do you think I portray myself as, and what do you think I really am? I have no idea what you're talking about. We probably have more in common than you think. I'm nobody, just an uneducated guy who likes to talk about Bible topics. How did you get the mods "against" you with just 400 msgs (or are you a sock)? I get the martyr complex, though. It's a common defense mechanism on these boards. I hope it works out for you. The goat just wandered in.