I have a question that remains unanswered:

[Abaxvahl]

Only once he is 100% totally dead, like every other human being, does the proof of God's love for us have meaning in the evidence of raising our brother into a resurrected body. Yes, our brother!

Death is just the separation of the soul and body for all humans, it does not imply ceasing to exist. So yes, Jesus died, the whole Person.

 

[Enoch111]

Many people teach that Jesus is God, fact is he either is or isn't. So my question is, if Jesus is God then did he lie in these verses?

Jesus did not lie in those verses, but clearly you have not really understood their significance. And you never will unless you believe that Jesus is God.

Now here's the thing that is ironical. You use the name "Jesus" in your quote above, but did you know that that name itself tells you that Jesus is God? Jesus is the English equivalent of Yeshua, and Yeshua is derived from two Hebrew words: YAH + SHUA. Which mean YAHWEH (GOD) IS SALVATION! And that is why Jesus was called EMMANUEL which means GOD WITH US! But Jesus also declared publicly that He is "I AM" and "I AM" is the name of the Lord God Almighty. He also said that unless you believe that He is "I AM" you will die in your sins.

Do you now see why the JWs are so deluded and brainwashed that they do not even know what words mean. The Watchtower Society has done a great job in creating a cult. At the same time many JWs have had their eyes opened and rejected all the nonsense of the Watchtower people.

 

[BarneyFife]

No. They really want a man to be God.

What would cause someone to arbitrarily want a man to be God?

 

[BarneyFife]

Death is just the separation of the soul and body for all humans

By what figure does the Bible represent death?
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." 1 Thess. 4:13 (1 Cor. 15:18, 20) (John 11:11-14).

Where do the dead sleep?
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Dan. 12:2.

How long will they sleep there?
"So man lieth down, and riseth not, till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job. 14:12.

What must take place before Job could expect to awake?
"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will wait, till my change come." Job 14:14.

Where does he wait?
"If I wait, the grave is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness." Job 17:13.

While in this condition, what does one know of those he has left behind?
"His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:21.

What becomes of man's thoughts at death?
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Ps. 146:4.

Do the dead know anything?
"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Eccl. 9:5.

What part, if any, do they take in earthly things?
"Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun." Ecc. 9:6.
NOTE: If one continued in consciousness after death, he would know of the promotion or dishonor of his sons. But Job says he does not know this, then if, as stated in the last text quoted, in death one loses all the attributes of his mind, as love, hatred, envy, etc., it is plain that his thoughts have perished, and that he can have nothing more to do with living objects. Again if man in death prolongs his powers of thought, he lives; and if he lives he must be somewhere. Where is he? Is he in heaven, or in hell? If in either place immediately after death, what is the necessity of a judgment in the end of the world to decide his case? Is there a possibility that some have at death gone to the wrong place, and must needs be sent to the other, after having been in bliss or torment for ages, perhaps?

What does the psalmist say about the dead praising the Lord?
"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Ps. 115:17.

How much does one know of God when dead?
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee." Ps. 6:5.
NOTE: There is not even a remembrance of God. As already seen, the Bible everywhere represents the dead as asleep. If they were in heaven or in hell, would it be fitting to represent them thus? Was Lazarus, whom Jesus loved, in heaven when the Savior said: "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth?" (John 11:11.) If so, calling him to life was really robbing him of the bliss of heaven that rightly belonged to him.

But are not the righteous dead in heaven?
"For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:34.

If the dead cannot praise God, what must take place to enable them to do so?
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isa. 26:19.

What was the only thing with which David would be satisfied?
"As for me, I will behold Thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness." Ps. 17:15.

If there should never be an awakening of the dead, what would be the result?
"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised; and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." 1 Cor. 15:16-18.

When does the resurrection of the righteous take place?
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thess. 4:16 (1 Cor. 15:23).
NOTE: If, as we have learned (Eccl. 9:5), the dead know not anything, then they will certainly have no knowledge of the lapse of time. A thousand years will be to them a day or a moment. To go down to the grave, and wait till the resurrection, even though it be a thousand years, will be to those who experience it like a sudden transition from this life to the next. It ought to be a consoling thought to one whose life has been filled with anxiety and grief for loved ones who persist in wickedness, to know that they will in death be spared torment. Again, it would mar the felicity of one's enjoyment in heaven if he could look upon earth, and see his friends and relatives maltreated by strangers, or suffering from cold and hunger. It is wise that God has ordered it as expressed by the patriarch: "His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:21.

 

[Wrangler]

Just because the eternal triune Godhead decided to send Jesus to become man does not take away from the fact that He was divine for eternity past

Your 'facts' are trinitarian dogma that is not an explicit teaching in Scripture but goes against explicit teaching in Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

What would cause someone to arbitrarily want a man to be God?

Not sure about arbitrary but certainly mysticism, like square circles.

 

[Abaxvahl]

NOTE: If, as we have learned (Eccl. 9:5), the dead know not anything, then they will certainly have no knowledge of the lapse of time. A thousand years will be to them a day or a moment. To go down to the grave, and wait till the resurrection, even though it be a thousand years, will be to those who experience it like a sudden transition from this life to the next. It ought to be a consoling thought to one whose life has been filled with anxiety and grief for loved ones who persist in wickedness, to know that they will in death be spared torment. Again, it would mar the felicity of one's enjoyment in heaven if he could look upon earth, and see his friends and relatives maltreated by strangers, or suffering from cold and hunger. It is wise that God has ordered it as expressed by the patriarch: "His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:21.

Christ conquered death by death and their state has fundamentally changed since then.

 

[Wrangler]

YOu have no scripture other than the rewritten NWT that says Jesus is a created being.

That's not true. There is a verse that is not NWT that says Jesus is the firstborn of all Creation. More than that, is the most famous verse in all of Scripture. John 3:16 explicitly states Jesus was begotten, which is synonymous with created (specifically pro-created).

 

[Wrangler]

god can do as He wishes, and this was th ewill fo the Father to send God the son down to earth

Anti-Biblical. Not once is "God the Son" stated in Scripture but over and over and over again God is the father alone.


Return to Me and you will know that I live among My people Israel and that I, the Eternal One, am your God and there is no other.
Joel 2:27

 

[Wrangler]

Is there any particular reason you chose not to address Isaiah 9:6?

You do know a Hebrew wrote this who is a monotheist, right? I know you did not address this question to me but you must realize the Jews have a monotheistic interpretation of Isaiah 9:6, right? Why Isaiah 7:14 Is Not A Prophecy of Jesus’ Virgin Birth

Take for example the words of Jesus in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

Trinitarians deliberately confuse 2 things:
A. Being on the same page with another
B. Being the same being.

John 10:30 is analogous to John 17:22. Being one with God does not make us any more God than it made Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

Is Jesus God? Yes. Jesus declared Himself to be God. His followers believed Him to be God. The provision of salvation only works if Jesus is God.

None of this is true. Jesus declared his Father to be the one true God in John 17:3 and referenced his God many times. Even after he was resurrected. See John 20:17. The only God is Jesus' God.

Jesus declared himself to his followers as the long awaited Messiah, the suffering servant who God chose. Salvation works anyway God wants it to and the way God wants salvation to work is we submit to his special Creation, his first son as our Lord and Savior - not to be confused with the LORD God almighty.

 

[BarneyFife]

Trinitarians deliberately confuse 2 things

How can you ascribe intent to millions of people you don't know? Confusing

None of this is true.

Your objection is duly noted. Despite your hostile-sounding presuppositions, I simply agreed that a triune God was indicated when I was first shown the Biblical evidence supporting it. You obviously agreed to the opposite. I praise God for His gift of religious liberty that you may choose according to the dictates of your own conscience. If the issue was decided in a court of law, your case wouldn't be any stronger than those you oppose. But, then, we wrestle not...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Implied dualism. Jesus died. No part of him can possibly survive in order for the Good News to have any benefit to humanity!

You are so wrong!

1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

When Jesus physically died, His spirit went to Paradise to preach to those who died righteously

It is God's Spirit that was within Jesus. See the baptism.

so you think Jesus was just a man on earth? Without a spirit or soul? Even Christians when we die as Paul said when we are absent from the body, we are present with Jesus!

Only once he is 100% totally dead, like every other human being, does the proof of God's love for us have meaning in the evidence of raising our brother into a resurrected body. Yes, our brother!

Men have a soul and spiriut and when we die we either go to the place of torments or to heaven, while our bodies go down tro the ground

How did Jesus tell us to pray? To 'my' father? No. To 'your' father? No. To God, the Father of us all, including Jesus.

I agree 100% But that doesn't negate that Jesus is equally divine as His Father who is above HIm. We are now commanded to worship the Father and Son!


!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your 'facts' are trinitarian dogma that is not an explicit teaching in Scripture but goes against explicit teaching in Scripture.

It is , you just redefine explicitr because you do not like what Gods Word has to say abo0ut your Lord Jesus Christ who is called Y*ahweh and God and God with us!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's not true. There is a verse that is not NWT that says Jesus is the firstborn of all Creation. More than that, is the most famous verse in all of Scripture. John 3:16 explicitly states Jesus was begotten, which is synonymous with created (specifically pro-created).

Well thinkning with you rfinite 21st Century mindset I see why you associate yourself more closely to the Watchtower than to Biblical Christianity. Now go and learn how "firstborn" was also used in the first century, especially inlight of many other passages that explicitly declare what it means in New Testament doctrine.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is God's Spirit that was within Jesus. See the baptism.

By the Way if you believe Jesus was just a man when on earth and nothing more, then what was Jesus prior to His Incarnation, and what was jesus after His bodily resurrection?

 

[BarneyFife]

@Wrangler

I'm not an anti-non-trinitarian. I simply don't agree with many of their various claims. I'm not even sure that I'm a textbook trinitarian myself. I just believe what the Bible appears to me to say about some divinity issues. In my view, there's room for variance within the larger church.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Anti-Biblical. Not once is "God the Son" stated in Scripture but over and over and over again God is the father alone.


Return to Me and you will know that I live among My people Israel and that I, the Eternal One, am your God and there is no other.
Joel 2:27

Are you stupid or just extremely lazy when you read someone elses post?

I have repeated ad-nauseum that Jesus is not the Father but God the Father is Father alone. Althoughj Jesus is called the Father of eternity8 in Isaiah, but I am sure you have reinterpreted that away as well. But as you are so gnat straining with words I use. do not speak of anything in the bible from now on unless it is just 100% Scripture- Keep your commkents to yourself as they do not appear in SCripture.

The Word was god and the Word which is God was made flesh and dwelt among us.

HIs name shall be called Emmanuel which means God is with us!

Isaiah 44:6
King James Version

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Two Yahwhs, two first and last who beisdes them there is no Elohim (plural) tough you only accept part of Gods Word.

 

[Wrangler]

How can you ascribe intent to millions of people you don't know?

Intent has nothing to do with it. See Axiomatic Analysis.

 

[FDS]

Who did Jesus Christ get his revelation from at Revelation 1:1 while in Heaven in the year 96 AD?? I think the answer is God.